A serial port is a relatively crude interface. This means you can only use a relatively low polling rate. A PS/2 or USB interface allows for better precision, higher resolution and faster polling rates, giving a better experience.
So a serial mouse 'works', and it may be 'good enough' for some people, but there are better options.

Scali wrote on 2023-09-26, 13:28:

A serial port is a relatively crude interface. This means you can only use a relatively low polling rate. A PS/2 or USB interface allows for better precision, higher resolution and faster polling rates, giving a better experience.
So a serial mouse 'works', and it may be 'good enough' for some people, but there are better options.

Gotcha, thanks!

And for a typical 'retro PC' use, MS-DOS 6.22 + WfW 3.11 and related programs and games, would that be a sufficient to be a nuisance or would it be irrelevant?

Thanks again

I don't think PS/2 mice became commonplace until somewhere late in the Pentium era (around 1996 or so), when motherboards started to integrate PS/2 mouse and keyboard connectors. Before that, it was mainly IBM PS/2 systems that had these ports, but most people used serial mice and AT-style keyboards.
So for DOS and Win 3.x, serial mice were the way to go.

For me, it's very difficult to go back to a mechanical ball mouse after using an optical mouse for years. That's the main reason why I always need to have a PS2 port on my retro rigs.

It should be said that I play a lot of FPS games, where precise and fluid mouse movement is imperative.

Scali wrote on 2023-09-26, 13:43:

I don't think PS/2 mice became commonplace until somewhere late in the Pentium era (around 1996 or so), when motherboards started to integrate PS/2 mouse and keyboard connectors. Before that, it was mainly IBM PS/2 systems that had these ports, but most people used serial mice and AT-style keyboards.
So for DOS and Win 3.x, serial mice were the way to go.

Gotcha! Thanks!!!

Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2023-09-26, 13:43:

For me, it's very difficult to go back to a mechanical ball mouse after using an optical mouse for years. That's the main reason why I always need to have a PS2 port on my retro rigs.

It should be said that I play a lot of FPS games, where precise and fluid mouse movement is imperative.

Then I hear you bro!

***********************
Anyways, I never thought about the PS/2 ports issues. I always took it per granted that I would have found them on any mobo, at least back to 386s.
This mouse problem thing, I hadn't considered at all!
My face when I got this 486 DX fresh a few days ago, I look at it and I'm like: Where the heck am I gonna plug the mouse???

At least the PS/2 port is well supported in DOS and Windows 3.x for practical purposes, unlike the USB standard.

Realistically though, at the time WASD controls weren't widespread in FPS games and most people used serial mice as Scali said.

Cherry has a wonderful USB/PS2 optical mouse that comes in retro beige: https://www.cherry-world.com/wheelmouse

I just want to be able to use this mouse.

aries-mu wrote on 2023-09-26, 13:50:

Anyways, I never thought about the PS/2 ports issues. I always took it per granted that I would have found them on any mobo, at least back to 386s.
This mouse problem thing, I hadn't considered at all!
My face when I got this 486 DX fresh a few days ago, I look at it and I'm like: Where the heck am I gonna plug the mouse???

Yea exactly.
Back in those days there were basically two types of machines:
1) Brand machines, which usually had their own custom formfactor, for which they developed their own motherboards, which usually integrated quite a bit of functionality on-board, to cut costs and keep the machines relatively compact.
2) Generic clones, which were built from off-the-shelf parts, where the motherboard was generally just CPU+chipset+memory, and nothing else, using the standard AT form factor. So you'd need a multi-IO card, that generally offered a floppy controller, IDE controller, a printer port and two serial ports (IBM's PC, XT and AT machines were designed the same way, using expansion cards for basic functionality, but PS/2 was more integrated).

Some brand machines also integrated the video, but quite a few used a standard video card in an expansion slot.

It wasn't until the late 486/early Pentium era that integrated chipsets became more standardized for generic clones, with both Intel starting to offer highly integrated chipsets, and also various cheap Taiwanese clones became available (Ali, UMC, VIA, SiS etc).
This meant that the multi-IO was now often integrated on board, so you only needed a video card to get a working machine.

Gmlb256 wrote on 2023-09-26, 14:03:

Realistically though, at the time WASD controls weren't widespread in FPS games and most people used serial mice as Scali said.

While this is true, you can actually configure the original DOS versions of Doom 1&2, Heretic, Duke3D and Quake to use WASD controls and mouse aiming. Doom and Heretic need the NOVERT utility for this to work correctly, while Duke3D and Quake support mouse aiming natively. Of course, all of these games must be fully up to date using the latest official patches.

Fun fact, Stonekeep in its default configuration used WASD for movement and mouse for aiming way back in 1995.

Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2023-09-26, 14:13:

Gmlb256 wrote on 2023-09-26, 14:03:

Realistically though, at the time WASD controls weren't widespread in FPS games and most people used serial mice as Scali said.

While this is true, you can actually configure the original DOS versions of Doom 1&2, Heretic, Duke3D and Quake to use WASD controls and mouse aiming. Doom and Heretic need the NOVERT utility for this to work correctly, while Duke3D and Quake support mouse aiming natively. Of course, all of these games must be fully up to date using the latest official patches.

Fun fact, Stonekeep in its default configuration used WASD for movement and mouse for aiming way back in 1995.

Oh I never thought about that!!! I had forgotten the inputs in Doom... interesting utility, thanks!

Scali wrote on 2023-09-26, 14:12:

Yea exactly. Back in those days there were basically two types of machines: 1) Brand machines, which usually had their own custo […]
Show full quote

aries-mu wrote on 2023-09-26, 13:50:

Anyways, I never thought about the PS/2 ports issues. I always took it per granted that I would have found them on any mobo, at least back to 386s.
This mouse problem thing, I hadn't considered at all!
My face when I got this 486 DX fresh a few days ago, I look at it and I'm like: Where the heck am I gonna plug the mouse???

Yea exactly.
Back in those days there were basically two types of machines:
1) Brand machines, which usually had their own custom formfactor, for which they developed their own motherboards, which usually integrated quite a bit of functionality on-board, to cut costs and keep the machines relatively compact.
2) Generic clones, which were built from off-the-shelf parts, where the motherboard was generally just CPU+chipset+memory, and nothing else, using the standard AT form factor. So you'd need a multi-IO card, that generally offered a floppy controller, IDE controller, a printer port and two serial ports (IBM's PC, XT and AT machines were designed the same way, using expansion cards for basic functionality, but PS/2 was more integrated).

Some brand machines also integrated the video, but quite a few used a standard video card in an expansion slot.

It wasn't until the late 486/early Pentium era that integrated chipsets became more standardized for generic clones, with both Intel starting to offer highly integrated chipsets, and also various cheap Taiwanese clones became available (Ali, UMC, VIA, SiS etc).
This meant that the multi-IO was now often integrated on board, so you only needed a video card to get a working machine.

Interesting! Thanks

copper wrote on 2023-09-26, 14:10:

Cherry has a wonderful USB/PS2 optical mouse that comes in retro beige: https://www.cherry-world.com/wheelmouse

I just want to be able to use this mouse.

wow nice!
Just not native PS/2, it uses an adapter. Is it reliable?

main problem is availability of comfortable cheap not ball Serial mice. But we got plenty of projects providing USB to serial mouse conversion as I mentioned Re: Another PS/2 Mouse ISA (ISA8) card adapter

Scali wrote on 2023-09-26, 13:28:

A serial port is a relatively crude interface. This means you can only use a relatively low polling rate.

160Hz pooling over serial Re: USB to Serial Mouse using the Pi Pico!

aries-mu wrote on 2023-09-26, 14:19:

Just not native PS/2, it uses an adapter. Is it reliable?

It is native. The adapter is completely passive.

Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2023-09-26, 14:13:

Gmlb256 wrote on 2023-09-26, 14:03:

Realistically though, at the time WASD controls weren't widespread in FPS games and most people used serial mice as Scali said.

While this is true, you can actually configure the original DOS versions of Doom 1&2, Heretic, Duke3D and Quake to use WASD controls and mouse aiming. Doom and Heretic need the NOVERT utility for this to work correctly, while Duke3D and Quake support mouse aiming natively. Of course, all of these games must be fully up to date using the latest official patches.

Fun fact, Stonekeep in its default configuration used WASD for movement and mouse for aiming way back in 1995.

Yep. The NOVERT TSR blocks the mouse Y axis, making the WASD feasible on several older FPS games.

However, I don't have much trouble using the oldschool controls in such games and only use WASD when desirable. 😀

Scali wrote on 2023-09-26, 14:12:

Yea exactly. Back in those days there were basically two types of machines: 1) Brand machines, which usually had their own custo […]
Show full quote

aries-mu wrote on 2023-09-26, 13:50:

Anyways, I never thought about the PS/2 ports issues. I always took it per granted that I would have found them on any mobo, at least back to 386s.
This mouse problem thing, I hadn't considered at all!
My face when I got this 486 DX fresh a few days ago, I look at it and I'm like: Where the heck am I gonna plug the mouse???

Yea exactly.
Back in those days there were basically two types of machines:
1) Brand machines, which usually had their own custom formfactor, for which they developed their own motherboards, which usually integrated quite a bit of functionality on-board, to cut costs and keep the machines relatively compact.
2) Generic clones, which were built from off-the-shelf parts, where the motherboard was generally just CPU+chipset+memory, and nothing else, using the standard AT form factor. So you'd need a multi-IO card, that generally offered a floppy controller, IDE controller, a printer port and two serial ports (IBM's PC, XT and AT machines were designed the same way, using expansion cards for basic functionality, but PS/2 was more integrated).

Some brand machines also integrated the video, but quite a few used a standard video card in an expansion slot.

It wasn't until the late 486/early Pentium era that integrated chipsets became more standardized for generic clones, with both Intel starting to offer highly integrated chipsets, and also various cheap Taiwanese clones became available (Ali, UMC, VIA, SiS etc).
This meant that the multi-IO was now often integrated on board, so you only needed a video card to get a working machine.

Just to add to this - in my experience, the "brand machines" had PS/2 ports certainly in 1994, etc. I had a lousy AST machine in early 1995 with PS/2 keyboard/mouse. (With the benefit of hindsight I cannot believe how trashy that machine was, but hey...)

I would separate the brand machines into two categories, though:
- IBM/Compaq/AST/Packard Hell/etc, who in my experience had highly integrated motherboards, typically with lousy components. I don't know if I have ever seen or heard of a machine from any of those manufacturers that had discrete video, for example - all the ones I remember had some form of video controller (Cirrus Logic, ATI, etc) soldered onto the board.
- Dell/Gateway/Micron, who used Intel boards and had relatively little integrated stuff. I don't think Dell had any systems with soldered video until the Dimension L with the i810 chipset graphics, for example. And they were primarily offering discrete sound cards well into 2000/2001...

And I remember being at school in, oh, I think it must have been 1998 or 1999 when they got a bunch of generic clones from a local clone shop, and those machines were AT desktops and came with AT keyboards (or rather, PS/2 keyboards plugged into AT adapters) and... I don't know what they did for mice. I guess serial. Seems behind the times for 1998-1999, but that's school boards for you.

VivienM wrote on 2023-09-26, 22:00:

- Dell/Gateway/Micron, who used Intel boards and had relatively little integrated stuff. I don't think Dell had any systems with soldered video until the Dimension L with the i810 chipset graphics, for example. And they were primarily offering discrete sound cards well into 2000/2001...

I've seen Dells with integrated VGA even in the 486 days.
Here's one, board dated 1994: https://www.vgamuseum.info/index.php/cpu/item … logic-cl-gd5429

Scali wrote on 2023-09-26, 22:37:

VivienM wrote on 2023-09-26, 22:00:

- Dell/Gateway/Micron, who used Intel boards and had relatively little integrated stuff. I don't think Dell had any systems with soldered video until the Dimension L with the i810 chipset graphics, for example. And they were primarily offering discrete sound cards well into 2000/2001...

I've seen Dells with integrated VGA even in the 486 days.
Here's one: https://www.vgamuseum.info/index.php/cpu/item … logic-cl-gd5429

Interesting, was it on one of their more businessy machines? I also have a vague recollection of seeing some Dell systems in stores in late 1994 before they retrenched to online, I have no idea what these machines' insides would have had. I was a Mac guy back then, although that was around the time my dad decided to abandon the Mac for DOS/Windows...

I certainly do not remember seeing any of their Dimensions, which all had that now-iconic white case, with any option for onboard graphics. But those Dimensions with that case design... hmmm... those would have launched with either Pentium MMXes or Pentium IIs? I think there's at least one pre-AGP generation...

In the 486 era, many machines had ps2, although many still had serial only.

I actually really like ball mice, always have, was kinda sad when the transition to laser mice first happened. I remember serial mice being fine, I don’t think there would be a noticeable downside to using them in period correct retro machines with period correct software. I use one on my Mac, and it works great.

VivienM wrote on 2023-09-26, 22:00:

And I remember being at school in, oh, I think it must have been 1998 or 1999 when they got a bunch of generic clones from a local clone shop, and those machines were AT desktops and came with AT keyboards (or rather, PS/2 keyboards plugged into AT adapters) and... I don't know what they did for mice. I guess serial. Seems behind the times for 1998-1999, but that's school boards for you.

Motherboards in AT form factor existed until 1999, I had one based on the Intel 440BX chipset from Soltek and it came with a PS/2 bracket for the mice.

midicollector wrote on 2023-09-27, 00:06:

I actually really like ball mice, always have, was kinda sad when the transition to laser mice first happened. I remember serial mice being fine, I don’t think there would be a noticeable downside to using them in period correct retro machines with period correct software. I use one on my Mac, and it works great.

Actually, transition to optical mice.

I won't miss using the ball mice, had to clean it often to maintain optimal conditions.

VivienM wrote on 2023-09-26, 22:00:

Just to add to this - in my experience, the "brand machines" had PS/2 ports certainly in 1994, etc. I had a lousy AST machine in […]
Show full quote

Scali wrote on 2023-09-26, 14:12:

Yea exactly. Back in those days there were basically two types of machines: 1) Brand machines, which usually had their own custo […]
Show full quote

aries-mu wrote on 2023-09-26, 13:50:

Anyways, I never thought about the PS/2 ports issues. I always took it per granted that I would have found them on any mobo, at least back to 386s.
This mouse problem thing, I hadn't considered at all!
My face when I got this 486 DX fresh a few days ago, I look at it and I'm like: Where the heck am I gonna plug the mouse???

Yea exactly.
Back in those days there were basically two types of machines:
1) Brand machines, which usually had their own custom formfactor, for which they developed their own motherboards, which usually integrated quite a bit of functionality on-board, to cut costs and keep the machines relatively compact.
2) Generic clones, which were built from off-the-shelf parts, where the motherboard was generally just CPU+chipset+memory, and nothing else, using the standard AT form factor. So you'd need a multi-IO card, that generally offered a floppy controller, IDE controller, a printer port and two serial ports (IBM's PC, XT and AT machines were designed the same way, using expansion cards for basic functionality, but PS/2 was more integrated).

Some brand machines also integrated the video, but quite a few used a standard video card in an expansion slot.

It wasn't until the late 486/early Pentium era that integrated chipsets became more standardized for generic clones, with both Intel starting to offer highly integrated chipsets, and also various cheap Taiwanese clones became available (Ali, UMC, VIA, SiS etc).
This meant that the multi-IO was now often integrated on board, so you only needed a video card to get a working machine.

Just to add to this - in my experience, the "brand machines" had PS/2 ports certainly in 1994, etc. I had a lousy AST machine in early 1995 with PS/2 keyboard/mouse. (With the benefit of hindsight I cannot believe how trashy that machine was, but hey...)

I would separate the brand machines into two categories, though:
- IBM/Compaq/AST/Packard Hell/etc, who in my experience had highly integrated motherboards, typically with lousy components. I don't know if I have ever seen or heard of a machine from any of those manufacturers that had discrete video, for example - all the ones I remember had some form of video controller (Cirrus Logic, ATI, etc) soldered onto the board.
- Dell/Gateway/Micron, who used Intel boards and had relatively little integrated stuff. I don't think Dell had any systems with soldered video until the Dimension L with the i810 chipset graphics, for example. And they were primarily offering discrete sound cards well into 2000/2001...

And I remember being at school in, oh, I think it must have been 1998 or 1999 when they got a bunch of generic clones from a local clone shop, and those machines were AT desktops and came with AT keyboards (or rather, PS/2 keyboards plugged into AT adapters) and... I don't know what they did for mice. I guess serial. Seems behind the times for 1998-1999, but that's school boards for you.

This 100%. The idea that everyone in the first half of the 90s was using serial mice was really only accurate of the "parts built/ white box" market. Most factory clone systems from major manufacturers had ps/2 ports shortly after IBM introduced them.

But anyway the main problems with serial mice are:
1) Poor polling rate (yes this can be improved but it relies on specific hacked drivers that dont work with everything)
2)nearly nonexistent KVM support
3) lack of optical mouse availability