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Awesome build!

Could you share some more benchmarks? You specifically mention Theme Park, but is there speed problems even in hires mode? Or is that too slow? Any Windows installed? If yes, did you go for Windows 3.11 or early Windows 95?

vetz wrote on 2023-11-29, 17:26:

Awesome build!

Could you share some more benchmarks? You specifically mention Theme Park, but is there speed problems even in hires mode? Or is that too slow? Any Windows installed? If yes, did you go for Windows 3.11 or early Windows 95?

Thank you!

I'll be running some benchmarks and I'll add to them to thread when completed.

Regarding Theme Park, the high res mode does seem to be a bit better at least with respect to scroll speed, but I'm personally not a fan of that mode. Everything just looks too tiny.

I haven't installed any versions of Windows yet. If I do, it would be Windows 3.11 to keep things 'period correct' insofar as operating systems go.

Really nice build! But you should use a 1994 monitor (and keyboard without Windows keys).

I'd like to build 1993 Pentium but it is too hard to find a motherboard. But maybe 1994 Pentium would do fine since your build is so nice. But those motherboards are rare as well.

aitotat wrote on 2023-11-30, 10:37:

Really nice build! But you should use a 1994 monitor (and keyboard without Windows keys).

This particular setup is one of two spaces I have for retro PCs. I use have it set up so I can easily swap out out tower systems running anything from DOS to Windows 98. Hence why I have a PS2/Windows keyboard and a newer 19" monitor.

While I do have some older CRT monitors and would love to have more individual retro setups, I just don't have the space for it.

I'd like to build 1993 Pentium but it is too hard to find a motherboard. But maybe 1994 Pentium would do fine since your build is so nice. But those motherboards are rare as well.

Yeah, Socket 4 and Socket 5 motherboards are definitely less common. Socket 4 boards especially go for crazy prices on Ebay.

Shponglefan wrote:

I'll be running some benchmarks and I'll add to them to thread when completed.

Regarding Theme Park, the high res mode does seem to be a bit better at least with respect to scroll speed, but I'm personally not a fan of that mode. Everything just looks too tiny.

Awesome!

I first played Theme Park in 1997 on my Compaq Presario Pentum 166 MMX, so there hi-res was the only option that made sense, so that is what I'm used to.

Shponglefan wrote on 2023-11-30, 12:33:

This particular setup is one of two spaces I have for retro PCs. I use have it set up so I can easily swap out out tower systems running anything from DOS to Windows 98. Hence why I have a PS2/Windows keyboard and a newer 19" monitor.

While I do have some older CRT monitors and would love to have more individual retro setups, I just don't have the space for it.

I feel you there! I have the same issue, only space for two setups at the same time, and only one of them with CRT. I'm solving it with a KVM setup, but that means one set of keyboard and my trusty Logitech MX518 😀 I'd love to have individual "station" for all of them, but there is some practically improvements with KVM, especially when it comes to MIDI/sound setup.

Yeah, Socket 4 and Socket 5 motherboards are definitely less common. Socket 4 boards especially go for crazy prices on Ebay.

Crazy prices? I haven't checked for many years. I used to collect Socket 4 and Socket 5 boards a couple of years ago, they weren't that common, but if they showed up they were reasonable priced. Socket 5 it seemed almost no-one wanted. I actually made a post about it Why no love for Socket 5?

vetz wrote on 2023-11-30, 12:48:

Awesome!

I first played Theme Park in 1997 on my Compaq Presario Pentum 166 MMX, so there hi-res was the only option that made sense, so that is what I'm used to.

Ah, that makes sense then. In our case, we played Theme Park on a 486 DLC-40. Very different level of performance. 😉

I feel you there! I have the same issue, only space for two setups at the same time, and only one of them with CRT. I'm solving it with a KVM setup, but that means one set of keyboard and my trusty Logitech MX518 😀 I'd love to have individual "station" for all of them, but there is some practically improvements with KVM, especially when it comes to MIDI/sound setup.

KVM can help for sure. I've thought about doing a KVM as well, but my challenge is how to deal with the audio side. As someone who typically puts 3 to 6 sound cards in every build, even just a couple builds makes for a lot of audio connections.

Crazy prices? I haven't checked for many years. I used to collect Socket 4 and Socket 5 boards a couple of years ago, they weren't that common, but if they showed up they were reasonable priced. Socket 5 it seemed almost no-one wanted. I actually made a post about it Why no love for Socket 5?

Socket 5 motherboards are general available for reasonable prices.

Socket 4 is another story. I just checked on Ebay and there are only a handful for sale and they are all several hundred dollars apiece. It's a similar story with Socket 8 motherboards.

I might bite the bullet just to get one one of these days. But I'm not expecting to find a bargain.

Added some DOS benchmarks for the 1994 build.

It's quite capable at standard VGA resolutions. I was a bit surprised how well Duke Nukem 3D played on it at 320x200. Quake and Terminal Velocity aren't quite as performant, but still playable at VGA resolution. At SVGA resolutions the system does start to struggle.

The S3VBE20 TSR was enabled for some of the benchmarks where noted.

Shponglefan wrote on 2023-12-01, 14:55:

Socket 5 motherboards are general available for reasonable prices.

Socket 4 is another story. I just checked on Ebay and there are only a handful for sale and they are all several hundred dollars apiece. It's a similar story with Socket 8 motherboards.

Which is strange, because I have a Batman's Revenge (PCI/Premiere) board and it is pretty much identical to the one from your build with the obvious difference being the LX chipset and the Socket 4. I got it for less than $50 about 4 years ago and thought I was overpaying, I guess Socket 4 is just more rare now?

But yeah, Socket 5/Neptune boards seem to be unloved by most people, I got a very cheap NIB Soyo years ago and have and Intel one like yours with a gold top P90 from a recent auction that no one else bid on, paid just $20 + shipping! (Dell version though, I plan to flash the generic Intel BIOS when I have the time to test it). Not complaining though, I think the fact that Neptune boards do not really get talked about in YouTube videos makes them less desirable.

In any case, I think a DX2-66 is much more suitable for a 1993-themed build than a Socket 4, especially considering the limited availability of PCI graphics cards in 1993 if you want to be really strict... S3 928 maybe? Not sure how good it performs.

TheMobRules wrote on 2023-12-02, 06:07:

Which is strange, because I have a Batman's Revenge (PCI/Premiere) board and it is pretty much identical to the one from your build with the obvious difference being the LX chipset and the Socket 4. I got it for less than $50 about 4 years ago and thought I was overpaying, I guess Socket 4 is just more rare now?

I imagine it's just the case of the cheaper ones being all picked up, leaving behind the pricier ones that nobody wants to pay for.

In any case, I think a DX2-66 is much more suitable for a 1993-themed build than a Socket 4, especially considering the limited availability of PCI graphics cards in 1993 if you want to be really strict... S3 928 maybe? Not sure how good it performs.

486 DX2-66 is definitely quintessential 1993/early 1994 build. I have planned a 1993 486 DX2-66 with VLB graphics build.

The challenge is figuring out the graphics card, since the popular options (e.g. Tseng ET4000/WP32) didn't arrive until 1994. S3 928 is one option, though I'm also considering the Cirrus Logic and Trident cards of that year.

1994 Ultimate Gaming Rig: Pentium 90

Specs:

CPU: Pentium 90
Motherboard: Intel Premiere/PCI II (Intel 430NX chipset)
RAM: 16 MB
Video Card: Diamond Stealth 64 (S3 Vision964)
Sound Cards: Creative Labs AWE32 (CT2760), Gravis UltraSound rev.3.7, Roland RAP-10
Fixed storage: 1 GB CompactFlash
CD-ROM: 4x Toshiba
Floppy Drive: 3.5" FDD
Other: Startech IDE-to-CF adapter
OS: DOS 6.22

I chose a Pentium 90 specifically based on research from magazines from 1994. While the Pentium 100 technically released that year, I couldn't find any examples of systems being sold with Pentium 100's in 1994. That, and the specific motherboard I am using only supports Pentium 75 or 90 processors.

Performance-wise, it handles 3D games of the era quite well especially in an era when 486 machines still dominated. Doom and its clones play quite nicely on this machine. It can even handle later 3D games though it starts to struggle at SVGA resolutions. It is overpowered for more speed sensitive titles of the era like Theme Park or Warcraft. Disabling level 1 cache reduces it to the speed of a 486 DX-25.

This motherboard also supports turbo functionality via keyboard commands (Ctrl-Alt-plus/minus). However, de-turboing the system does not work if EMM386 is loaded which unfortunately limits its usefulness. With the board de-turbo'd, it runs at about the speed of a 386-SX25.

For sound cards I went with the AWE32 (CT2760), GUS, and Roland RAP-10. This precludes native Sound Blaster Pro compatibility, but by 1993 a lot of games were starting to support SB16. I also wanted to try the RAP-10. It's arguably less ideal than something like an SCC-1, since the RAP-10 lacks MPU-401 intelligent mode and doesn't have built-in MIDI ports requiring the use of a joystick-to-MIDI adapter. On the other hand, it still produces typical Roland Sound Canvas sound for General MIDI playback, which is to say it sounds good.

I did go with a couple non-period correct components in the heatsink+fan combo, and the CF card. While I do have a bucketload of old HDDs, for reliability and convenience, I opted for modern parts and solid state storage.

1995 Ultimate Gaming Rig: Pentium 133

Specs:

CPU: Pentium 133
Motherboard: Gigabyte GA-586ATE/P (Intel 430FX chipset)
RAM: 32 MB
Video Card: Diamond Stealth64 2001 (S3 Trio 64+)
Sound Cards: Creative Labs AWE32 (CT3900), Gravis UltraSound ACE, Roland SCC-1
Fixed storage: 4 GB CompactFlash
CD-ROM: 8x Mitsumi
Floppy Drive: 3.5" FDD
Other: Startech IDE-to-CF adapter
OS: DOS 6.22

Of all the DOS builds I've done, I think that my Pentium 133 builds are my favorite. In part, it's such a good year for gaming with games like Warcraft II, Command & Conquer, Dark Forces, Heroes of Might and Magic, Crusader: No Remorse, among others releasing that year.

Performance-wise, this system nicely handles that pre-3D accelerated era of computer gaming and at a time when SVGA resolutions were becoming more commonplace in games.

The video card used (S3 Trio 64+) isn't the fastest of the year, but offers broad DOS compatibility. Since this is a DOS-focused machine, I wanted to ensure that it had decent backwards compatibility to cover the widest range of games possible.

The Pentium 133 also wasn't the fastest chip that year, with the first Pentium Pro 200 (256k cache) released later in 1995. In benchmarking some games, the Pentium Pro is generally faster than the Pentium 133, though in some cases (e.g. Duke 3D in SVGA resolutions), the Pentium Pro is slower. From a broad compatibility perspective allowing for more speed sensitive games and throttling, I still opted for the Pentium 133 for this build.

The motherboard used features turbo switch functionality, something not so common on Socket 7 boards. With turbo disabled the system reports a CPU speed of 80MHz. Admittedly it's not the most useful of throttling options. I suppose if one wants to go sub-100MHz for the occasional game that might benefit, it's only a button push away.

Disabling L1 cache slows the system to about the speed of a 486 DX-33 and de-turboing with L1 cache disabled brings it down to 386 DX-40 territory. Disabling L2 cache allows for further speed variations all the way to down a 386 SX-25.

Similar to 1994 build, I went with an AWE32 (CT3900), Gravis Ultrasound (ACE), and Roland (SCC-1) combo. Like the 1994 build, there is no native SB Pro compatibility, but for games from 1994 to 1996 it's largely irrelevant. Games routinely supported native SB16, AWE32 and/or Gravis Ultrasound.

Non-period correct components again includes the heatsink+fan combo and the CF card for fixed storage.

Here's a comparison of the 1994 Pentium 90 build versus the 1995 Pentium 133 build.

Performance gains for the Pentium 133 system range from 44% (Doom) to 72% (Duke Nukem 3D @ 320x200). Most notably, Build-engine games at 640x480 and software mode Quake at 320x200 become a lot more playable now clocking above 30 FPS.

Currently working on a pair of 1996 builds for a showdown between the Pentium 200 and Pentium Pro 200.

Aside from the motherboards and CPU, these are mostly identical builds. Same video cards, sound cards, and general peripherals.

The plan is have dual CF cards for each build: one with DOS 6.22 and the other with Windows 95. Each system will have a Voodoo 1 card installed for some early Glide-era gaming.

Do you actually have enough parts to fill in all these builds at the same time?

vetz wrote on 2023-12-04, 09:24:

Do you actually have enough parts to fill in all these builds at the same time?

For the most part.

The only I'm missing for my planned 1993 486 DX2-66 build is a working GUS Classic and a another working Roland SCC-1. I have non-working cards for each, so I'm hoping if I can get them repaired I can do a 1993 build.

Otherwise, I think I have everything else I need for builds from 1994 through 1999.

If I decide to do 1992, 1993 (Pentium) or year 2000 builds, I think there are still a handful more parts I'll need, at least to keep them period correct.

Ran into some stability issues when doing the final assembly of the Pentium 200 system. It started intermittently failing to boot up after a reset.

After spending over an hour troubleshooting, I dissembled the whole thing and discovered this:

Two legs from one of the board capacitors weren't snipped. Not only that, but there didn't seem to be solder on one of the legs. I checked it under a microscope and there was a bit solder inside the hole, but it looks like the leg had become detached.

I had previously de-soldered the clock chip, so I am surprised I never noticed this. I added some extra solder and snipped the errant legs.

I also swapped the RAM from bank 0 to bank 1. I ran a thorough memory test on the installed SIMMS with no issues reported.

After these changes I did about 50 reset tests and the system booted 100% of the time. I've since reassembled and am running another extended stress test. So far all seems to be good.

That capacitor's just crazy stuff. Looks like it never got soldered and cut flush. But maybe at that time, manaual hand mounting was still used to some extend?