If I'm not mistaking, this rug uses the pentium 3 1ghz CPU. You're probably running the original 64aMB ram or upgraded to 256. Up to this point you're fine for early win9x up to 2000 and the late Dos era (Duke 3D, Quake).
Then graphics come by and you have no agp. The Savage will be ok for DOS or win9x up to 1998, but there is stalls. I see some headroom for a GeForce 5600 PCI (yes they exist!) or ati 9250 PCI. But then you might lose some Dos support.
Alternatively you could go for any GeForce PCI from 5200 down so you keep vesa support.
Some overpriced 3DFX card may add some nice support too: voodoo 2 (SLI?) can run along with any other graphics cards and voodoo 3 will give decent vesa support as well.
Here you'll probably hit the ceiling with this motherboard.

Thanks! So there is some hope...

P3 1Ghz is pretty badass already but the lack of AGP is the killer.

Even a TNT may be better in 9x depending on what games your playing, but the Savage does make this build different from most of us using NVidia or ATI cards.
I'd say stick with the Savage unless you run into compatibility issues or can afford a faster card like waterbeesje mentioned above.
What soundcard do you have? SBLive/Audify/Audigy 2 or Aureal Vortex 2 are the default choices.
Add a network, makes life soo much easier.
People add SSD's with IDE to SATA adaptor but I prefer spinning rust. Comes down to personal choice.

I'm into RTS's more then 3d games which means lack of AGP isn't such a big deal, so is still worthy of gaming rig title

Voodoo3 3000 PCI is the best option, will cost more than swapping for a computer of same vintage with AGP

A 'badass' system is generally one focused on one specific goal. The biggest problem here isn't even that you're trying to start with a low-end system, it's that you're trying to make it do everything, in particular the things it's not inherently good at, i.e. DOS (no ISA) and also Win9x gaming. I'd suggest choosing something very specific and optimizing for that.

By comparison, I've done something similar with a Packard Bell uATX system, but I'm only focusing on WIn9x (I have other systems for DOS) and moreover my system has onboard Voodoo3, which beats integrated GMA. So I've gone crazy and increased CPU to a P3-1400S (and yes, that means OCing the BX board to 133MHz FSB) upgraded to 512MB CL2 PC133 RAM, added a SATA controller and a 32GB Intel X25E SLC SSD, added an Aureal2 sound card and a NIC for networking. Externally the only thing that gives away it's not the same sad PB Club system is that I replaced the FDD with a ZIP drive. UT99 flies on that system.

Now, that motherboard would also have made a great DOS system, as it has an ISA slot and Voodoo3 has good VESA SVGA support. But if I chose DOS the 1400MHz CPU would have been a disadvantage (much too fast, more need to slow down). Also the ISA slot is shared with one PCI slot, and the Aureal2 and onboard SB64PCI are crap in DOS so I would probably have had to lose the fancy 3D sound and instead use an ISA sound card that wouldn't add anything significant in Win98. Or I'd have to dump the SATA controller and go for PATA-SATA adapters instead. The end result would still have beaten the original system in both Win98 gaming performance and DOS features/compatibilty, but it would be a compromise.

In contrast if I'd wanted to make it a DOS system, I'd have kept RAM as low as possible (32MB PC100), gone for CF-IDE adapter instead of SATA SSD, made sure to choose a PCI NIC with good DOS packet driver support, added a nice ISA sound card, preferably with wavetable synth and/or bug-free MIDI. And if I'd been able to run a Via C3 (which can be slowed down to almost XT speeds) I'd have used that and otherwise gone for a much slower CPU. For late DOS I find a P3-600 is around the sweet spot, but if I want to run earlier stuff (and a C3 is not an option) I'd want the lowest multiplier I could get - so a P2-350 would be best on a board without multiplier jumpers, then drop FSB in software. That's a very different system to the Win98 system based on the same board.

So: focus!

Your motherboard lacks those two advantages (good onboard VGA and an ISA slot) so you're even more limited. You still face the dilemma that Win98SE games will benefit from every extra bit of speed you can eke out of the system, whereas every bit of speed you gain will increase the number of DOS games that will have problems. I'd say ditch DOS on this system, go for the fastest PCI VGA you can find (good suggestions have already been given, but even a GeForce2MX PCI or FX5200 PCI would be a big upgrade if an FX5600 PCI is unobtainium), add a nice 3D sound card (Aureal 2 or SBLive/Audigy) and a NIC and you're good to go with Win98 games far beyond anything that would originally have run on it (and indeed beyond what I can run on my system as Voodoo3 beats Intel GMA, but is much slower than any GeForce, even on PCI). Oh, and you still have a PCI slot left. If you have more money than sense (or some very good luck), stick in a Voodoo2 for GLide. Or more niche (and if you like Tomb Raider), go for a PowerVR PCX2. I'd try to keep the exterior as original as possible so as to make the surprise as big as possible 😉

dionb wrote on 2024-07-24, 08:57:

A 'badass' system is generally one focused on one specific goal. The biggest problem here isn't even that you're trying to start […]
Show full quote

A 'badass' system is generally one focused on one specific goal. The biggest problem here isn't even that you're trying to start with a low-end system, it's that you're trying to make it do everything, in particular the things it's not inherently good at, i.e. DOS (no ISA) and also Win9x gaming. I'd suggest choosing something very specific and optimizing for that.

By comparison, I've done something similar with a Packard Bell uATX system, but I'm only focusing on WIn9x (I have other systems for DOS) and moreover my system has onboard Voodoo3, which beats integrated GMA. So I've gone crazy and increased CPU to a P3-1400S (and yes, that means OCing the BX board to 133MHz FSB) upgraded to 512MB CL2 PC133 RAM, added a SATA controller and a 32GB Intel X25E SLC SSD, added an Aureal2 sound card and a NIC for networking. Externally the only thing that gives away it's not the same sad PB Club system is that I replaced the FDD with a ZIP drive. UT99 flies on that system.

Now, that motherboard would also have made a great DOS system, as it has an ISA slot and Voodoo3 has good VESA SVGA support. But if I chose DOS the 1400MHz CPU would have been a disadvantage (much too fast, more need to slow down). Also the ISA slot is shared with one PCI slot, and the Aureal2 and onboard SB64PCI are crap in DOS so I would probably have had to lose the fancy 3D sound and instead use an ISA sound card that wouldn't add anything significant in Win98. Or I'd have to dump the SATA controller and go for PATA-SATA adapters instead. The end result would still have beaten the original system in both Win98 gaming performance and DOS features/compatibilty, but it would be a compromise.

In contrast if I'd wanted to make it a DOS system, I'd have kept RAM as low as possible (32MB PC100), gone for CF-IDE adapter instead of SATA SSD, made sure to choose a PCI NIC with good DOS packet driver support, added a nice ISA sound card, preferably with wavetable synth and/or bug-free MIDI. And if I'd been able to run a Via C3 (which can be slowed down to almost XT speeds) I'd have used that and otherwise gone for a much slower CPU. For late DOS I find a P3-600 is around the sweet spot, but if I want to run earlier stuff (and a C3 is not an option) I'd want the lowest multiplier I could get - so a P2-350 would be best on a board without multiplier jumpers, then drop FSB in software. That's a very different system to the Win98 system based on the same board.

So: focus!

Your motherboard lacks those two advantages (good onboard VGA and an ISA slot) so you're even more limited. You still face the dilemma that Win98SE games will benefit from every extra bit of speed you can eke out of the system, whereas every bit of speed you gain will increase the number of DOS games that will have problems. I'd say ditch DOS on this system, go for the fastest PCI VGA you can find (good suggestions have already been given, but even a GeForce2MX PCI or FX5200 PCI would be a big upgrade if an FX5600 PCI is unobtainium), add a nice 3D sound card (Aureal 2 or SBLive/Audigy) and a NIC and you're good to go with Win98 games far beyond anything that would originally have run on it (and indeed beyond what I can run on my system as Voodoo3 beats Intel GMA, but is much slower than any GeForce, even on PCI). Oh, and you still have a PCI slot left. If you have more money than sense (or some very good luck), stick in a Voodoo2 for GLide. Or more niche (and if you like Tomb Raider), go for a PowerVR PCX2. I'd try to keep the exterior as original as possible so as to make the surprise as big as possible 😉

Wow that's an epic response!
That plan looks good though. If I ever build up 300 extra dollars I'll get a voodoo 3 price. I'm getting an sb Live! 0060 today and that's probably a good compromise between dos and windows. That powervr thing is interesting too.

chinny22 wrote on 2024-07-24, 02:08:

P3 1Ghz is pretty badass already but the lack of AGP is the killer. […]
Show full quote

P3 1Ghz is pretty badass already but the lack of AGP is the killer.

Even a TNT may be better in 9x depending on what games your playing, but the Savage does make this build different from most of us using NVidia or ATI cards.
I'd say stick with the Savage unless you run into compatibility issues or can afford a faster card like waterbeesje mentioned above.
What soundcard do you have? SBLive/Audify/Audigy 2 or Aureal Vortex 2 are the default choices.
Add a network, makes life soo much easier.
People add SSD's with IDE to SATA adaptor but I prefer spinning rust. Comes down to personal choice.

I'm into RTS's more then 3d games which means lack of AGP isn't such a big deal, so is still worthy of gaming rig title

Can you tell me what adding a network would mean?

Cursed Derp wrote on 2024-07-24, 14:32:

[...]

Wow that's an epic response!
That plan looks good though. If I ever build up 300 extra dollars I'll get a voodoo 3 price. I'm getting an sb Live! 0060 today and that's probably a good compromise between dos and windows. That powervr thing is interesting too.

Don't compromise. SBLive is OK for SB16 digital audio, but requires a TSR costing memory, and the OPL3 emulation (FM synth) is awful. if you really want to do DOS, go for a card that at least sounds a bit like an AdLib. Prime contenders are PCI cards based on the Yamaha YMF74x chips (with real OPL3 core) or ESS Solo chip (with ESFM, generally considered one of the best clones). Of course you lose the positional 3D audio then. Compromises. I say: drop DOS.

Cursed Derp wrote on 2024-07-24, 14:39:

[...]

Can you tell me what adding a network would mean?

Adding a network card lets you connect the PC to a network. Biggest reason to do that is file transfers - it's so much easier to do it over a network than messing around with whatever physical media you would otherwise use. There's lively debate as to whether FTP or SMB (Windows file & printer sharing) is best. I'm firmly in FTP camp as it's much simpler and can be used on any systems, from XT (or indeed pre-PC networked systems) all the way up to a Windows 11 box.

Completely insane idea - I don't think Dell made any mATX boards with AGP back in those days, but if you found an i815 mATX board, could you swap the motherboard? You have a great socket 370 CPU, probably the best CPU they offered in this otherwise mediocre chassis, a board with AGP would completely change this thing's personality...

Other advantage of a motherboard swap - you'd 'have' to swap the PSU too, which would get you away from the proprietary Dell pinout.

If I recall the PCI version of the RADEON 9100 is just a repackaged RADEON 8500LE, that would be a pretty decent fit. The previously mentioned 9200/9250 would also work fine, you aren't really limiting those cards in AGP versus PCI and it will let you play turn-of-the-millennium games just fine. Also, 256mb of ram like someone else already brought up. I don't think PCI is that big of a limitation for that system.

VivienM wrote on 2024-07-24, 22:58:

Completely insane idea - I don't think Dell made any mATX boards with AGP back in those days, but if you found an i815 mATX board, could you swap the motherboard? You have a great socket 370 CPU, probably the best CPU they offered in this otherwise mediocre chassis, a board with AGP would completely change this thing's personality...

Other advantage of a motherboard swap - you'd 'have' to swap the PSU too, which would get you away from the proprietary Dell pinout.

Given he seems hell-bent on running DOS as well as Win98SE, if changing the motherboard anyway a board with ISA would be a better idea (i815 doesn't do ISA). There are enough out there, in particular with ApolloPro133A chipset, which would let him keep the same CPU.

I checked in to see what you've got to work with and Oh my.. it's beautiful, I dunno what else to add that others have't said yet but if you can take a joke you should add some RGB in there haha

dionb wrote on 2024-07-24, 21:54:

Cursed Derp wrote on 2024-07-24, 14:32:

Can you tell me what adding a network would mean?

Adding a network card lets you connect the PC to a network. Biggest reason to do that is file transfers - it's so much easier to do it over a network than messing around with whatever physical media you would otherwise use. There's lively debate as to whether FTP or SMB (Windows file & printer sharing) is best. I'm firmly in FTP camp as it's much simpler and can be used on any systems, from XT (or indeed pre-PC networked systems) all the way up to a Windows 11 box.

Nothing to add accept I'm in the SMB camp.
Sure FTP is faster and is easier to get old and new computers talking to each other (which is the whole point after all)
But SMB is more integrated into windows so therefore more fun?
I'll admit FTP is probably the better choice if just starting out in this hobby.

Re the soundcard.
I find the SBLive! good enough for dos, for me the main problem is compatibility, some games refuse to work with it.
but overall If I was limited to only 1 retro PC in total, I would go with a Win9x focus that just happens to be able to play a few dos games.
Dosbox does a good job for the games that don't work or sound truly terrible.

VivienM wrote on 2024-07-24, 22:58:

Completely insane idea - I don't think Dell made any mATX boards with AGP back in those days, but if you found an i815 mATX board, could you swap the motherboard? You have a great socket 370 CPU, probably the best CPU they offered in this otherwise mediocre chassis, a board with AGP would completely change this thing's personality...

Other advantage of a motherboard swap - you'd 'have' to swap the PSU too, which would get you away from the proprietary Dell pinout.

There's some "Dell dumbassery" with the PSU form factor sometimes, it looks like ATX, but one or two screwholes are misaligned and it sits 5mm lower or something... means you have to hack and drill to get ATX in the case. I think I've also come across them being "arsy versy" with the power and fan hole orientation, where they also blank the corner where the voltage selector normally is, so they set it at factory then cover it, anyway, you try and put a normal PSU in and you end up with the power socket under there, and it's rotated 180 and the main vent is blocked by top panel... the annoying thing is, most of these deviations don't show up "by eyeball" when you come across a random Dell box, it looks more or less right, it's only when you put standard parts beside them you notice they don't line up.

Dell still do the same thing to this day. Their desktop cases look like they support standard slim/regular CD drives but they are a few fractions of a mm off, so only a Dell drive will fit properly...

The machine seems to be a "no win situation".

For pure DOS games, it has two hurdles it can't both take:
It is too fast and it is without ISA slot.

For windows games, it lacks AGP.

As this machine is very unflexible, you won't be able to turn this machine into a either a flexible DOS or flexible Win98 PC.

As others already observed, the machine is less restricted for wind98 than for DOS. Your best bet is to trade it for a better suited option. If you want to use it as your only retro machine then it should focus on win98 and selected DOS titles.

If you can disable cache in bios, you may be able to slow down the machine to an early 386. IIRC, an ESS Solo-1 sound card will still work if you do this. A SB Live most likely will not. So if you have the speed option and want to use it, you might want the Solo-1. This choice comes at a price, as the Live! offers more options at full speed. Both Live and Solo are budget cards you can get for little.

If you want to match your 1000MHz CPU with an appropriate PCI graphics card for win98, it will get invariably expensive. It may just be wiser to sell your stuff and buy the parts for either a dedicated DOS or Win98 machine.

I see a $10 US eBay option for PCI gfx right now... some massaging required as only LP bracket supplied. But it's an NVS 280 PCI which is basically an FX 5500 PCI, might need some inf file modding or not to install. Also uses a "DVI" to VGA splitter, but I think it's a DMS-59, supplied with the one I'm seeing though.

BitWrangler wrote on 2024-07-25, 15:09:

I see a $10 US eBay option for PCI gfx right now... some massaging required as only LP bracket supplied. But it's an NVS 280 PCI which is basically an FX 5500 PCI, might need some inf file modding or not to install. Also uses a "DVI" to VGA splitter, but I think it's a DMS-59, supplied with the one I'm seeing though.

Can you post a link?

It is frowned upon for live auctions, but I guess I'll either get away with it or get yelled at... https://www.ebay.com/itm/335500892486?