I've also had some drives with cracked nylon cogwheels, when new they were pressed tight onto the shaft with some tension, but after years of use they can crack and then the shaft spins but not the cogwheel.
They must have learnt this trick from the printer industry. So many deskjets turfed out as ewaste due to this happening...
I troubleshooted this a bit more today and found that it works fine with the lid off. Investigating further revealed that the reason the tray isn't coming out is because the sled inside isn't lowering. This is due to the disc platform getting suctioned up to the lid and not releasing.
I'm not certain as to why this would be. The rubber is not melting and seems fine. Perhaps it is instead in the early stages of failure and is grippy enough to have a strong suction to lid. This is probably why it ejects easier when oriented flat instead of its side; gravity is helping. I can't remove the rubber, as this is how the drive grips onto the disc.
Considering that this is an integral part of the drive design and it has been established that decaying rubber is a common failure mode for old hardware, what would be the best method to mitigate this with future drive purchases or repair it if it occurs in an important drive?
Adrian of Adrian's Digital Basement did a teardown of a hard drive once where we found a similar fault. The heads would rest against a rubber bumper when parked. Over time, this bumper turned to goo, locking the heads in place and destroying the drive.
Simple fix for the rubber belt (assuming it's shape is just deformed and not cracked and disintegrating) Throw it in boiling water for a few minutes. It softens up the rubber and returns to it's circular shape. You'll probably have to do it again in a few years time or alternatively, just replace the belt with a new one.
Kahenrazwrote on 2024-09-05, 04:28:I troubleshooted this a bit more today and found that it works fine with the lid off. Investigating further revealed that the re […] Show full quote
I troubleshooted this a bit more today and found that it works fine with the lid off. Investigating further revealed that the reason the tray isn't coming out is because the sled inside isn't lowering. This is due to the disc platform getting suctioned up to the lid and not releasing.
I'm not certain as to why this would be. The rubber is not melting and seems fine. Perhaps it is instead in the early stages of failure and is grippy enough to have a strong suction to lid. This is probably why it ejects easier when oriented flat instead of its side; gravity is helping. I can't remove the rubber, as this is how the drive grips onto the disc.
Considering that this is an integral part of the drive design and it has been established that decaying rubber is a common failure mode for old hardware, what would be the best method to mitigate this with future drive purchases or repair it if it occurs in an important drive?
Adrian of Adrian's Digital Basement did a teardown of a hard drive once where we found a similar fault. The heads would rest against a rubber bumper when parked. Over time, this bumper turned to goo, locking the heads in place and destroying the drive.
I was having the same issue with an LG CD drive: it would struggle to open and close and, with a CD inside, it wound't even read it, struggling to spin it.
But with the lid off, like magic, it worked. The tray would open without issues and the disc would spinn effortlessly. Of course, since I am lazy AF, I just replaced it with a "new" drive (that also started experiencing troubles opening up after a few weeks) and left it in my closet with a sticker saying "Defective?".
Maybe I need to get back to it and check things out with the info in this thread.
I troubleshooted this a bit more today and found that it works fine with the lid off. Investigating further revealed that the reason the tray isn't coming out is because the sled inside isn't lowering. This is due to the disc platform getting suctioned up to the lid and not releasing.
I'm not certain as to why this would be.
The likely cause was posted already:
ux-3wrote on 2024-09-04, 09:51:The problem was the following in all of my (6) cases:
There is a thin belt in front of the drive, taking an egg shaped form.
The […] Show full quote
The problem was the following in all of my (6) cases:
There is a thin belt in front of the drive, taking an egg shaped form.
The belt will always rest with a sharp curve at the small spindle.
The belt will adapt to the sharp curve form somewhat over the years and lose some traction.
Slide the belt by 1/2 circumference out of position, so the deformed part is now on the big wheel.
Then it will work better or trouble free.
(If this is your problem, the drive will open with a disk, but not without. The force needed to pull the magnetic disk lock or sticky rubber is too strong without a disk inside unless you restore belt traction)
Leaving a disk inside is also a viable solution.
Retro PC warning: The things you own end up owning you.
As I said on the original post: it's not the belt. I also restated this again in another post, indicating that I had tried replacing the belt in other drives. For clarity, I have both inspected, replaced, and validated the condition of the belt, swapping it between a known-good drive with a belt that is in perfect condition. Both belts work in the known-good drive. Both belts have the same failure mode in this drive.
I have encountered this non-belt failure mode several times in the past and have not found a solution, despite the trying to replace the belt anyways.
I troubleshooted this a bit more today and found that it works fine with the lid off. Investigating further revealed that the reason the tray isn't coming out is because the sled inside isn't lowering. This is due to the disc platform getting suctioned up to the lid and not releasing.
I'm not certain as to why this would be. The rubber is not melting and seems fine. Perhaps it is instead in the early stages of failure and is grippy enough to have a strong suction to lid. This is probably why it ejects easier when oriented flat instead of its side; gravity is helping. I can't remove the rubber, as this is how the drive grips onto the disc.
See my earlier post in this thread. This is exactly the issue I detailed for the first drive I did the workaround for.
To sum it up here again: it's the magnet at the top of the spindle assembly (or sometimes the magnet is on the bottom, inside the motor spindle) that provides this "suction". And with the top of, of course you don't have that suction / sticktion, so that's why the drive can open fine.
My theory is, and I'm actually pretty sure about this, is that the original belt for the tray was just good enough to overcome the sticktion from the magnet on the spindle assembly. But with the rubber aging over time, it looses the slightest grip, and that's what causes the tray to get stuck.
My workaround was, as detailed in my last post in this thread, to install a thin shim pieces on the spindle - both on the top and bottom part. Actually, I haven't done that yet to my drive, but I did a quick "prototype" test with a single layer of electrical tape, and that did the trick.
Using your picture above as a reference here, cut a round piece of electrical tape with a diameter large enough to cover only the metal part shown, and place it in the middle of that spindle motor. Make sure to cut around the raised metal shaft in the center though. Depending on how strong the magnet is in your spindle, you might get away with just one layer of electrical tape, or you might need to install two layers.
Now do the same with the top part of the spindle - the round plastic piece in the top cover that goes over the spindle motor - put a few strips of electrical tape on the outer diameter of the wheel/spindle that contacts the disc. The idea is that when there is a disc, the electrical tape in the top part will still be able to grip the disc. Otherwise with only tape on the bottom, your disc will slip and not spin up due to the raised distance from the round piece of electrical tape in the bottom spindle.
Anyways, if you're not sure what's going on, give me a day or two and I'll post some pictures here. I already did it with my drive and it's been working great... though I do intend to replace the electrical tape with proper plastic shims (and glue them) to the spindle.
One thing that sometimes helps with stuck drives is to push a needle into the hole in front to open the tray, and then exercise the tray a number of times. It'll help soften up the gummed up lubricant a bit and the drive can open again for a little while but ultimately it'll seize again.
momakawrote on 2024-09-05, 11:02:To sum it up here again: it's the magnet at the top of the spindle assembly (or sometimes the magnet is on the bottom, inside th […] Show full quote
To sum it up here again: it's the magnet at the top of the spindle assembly (or sometimes the magnet is on the bottom, inside the motor spindle) that provides this "suction". And with the top of, of course you don't have that suction / sticktion, so that's why the drive can open fine.
My theory is, and I'm actually pretty sure about this, is that the original belt for the tray was just good enough to overcome the sticktion from the magnet on the spindle assembly. But with the rubber aging over time, it looses the slightest grip, and that's what causes the tray to get stuck.
...
By the way, is this an LG drive by any chance?
I would like to know more about this. Send some pictures when you can. Your guide was a bit hard to visualize.
The drive is a Magicspin brand. Although I've had this happen with other brands in the past.
Perhaps it is instead in the early stages of failure and is grippy enough to have a strong suction to lid.
Greetings! Wanted to share one method I've used with success to recondition rubber spindle hubs in a variety of aging optical disc mechanisms (LD, CD, DVD). There is a coating product known as "Plasti Dip" sold in different packages, perhaps best known for dipping hand tools to form a rubber grip. If thinned with naphtha it can be brushed onto an aging spindle hub to restore grip. Can be done repeatedly to increase thickness.
I've also had some drives with cracked nylon cogwheels, when new they were pressed tight onto the shaft with some tension, but after years of use they can crack and then the shaft spins but not the cogwheel.
They use plastic that shrinks due to age/heat/moisture. At some point it can no longer hold together all this tension and splits open.
I would like to know more about this. Send some pictures when you can. Your guide was a bit hard to visualize.
OK, here they are (finally got back in town, the pics were on my camera.)
I think these should be self-explanatory now.
Again, I did it with 2 layers of electrical tape on my drive, but you may get it to work with just 1 layer, or you may need more than 2.
The whole idea is so that the magnet in the top part (in my drive, that is, so 2nd picture below) doesn't get as close as it did to the metal spindle at the bottom part (shown in 1st picture.) With the magnet further apart from the metal, there is less force from the magnet to be holding the tray in the "up" position. This means the belt for the tray eject mechanism will have less force to overcome too. Of course, if you put too many layers of tape, there's always the chance the spindle may slip when trying to spin up/down a disc (happened to me with 3 layers of tape.) So you have to see what works with your drive.
Also, as mentioned, I'm not sure about the longevity of electrical (or any other) tape as a long-term solution. I intend to revise this workaround/ "fix" with plastic shims and proper glue (and as can be seen, my tape cutouts are pretty crude, to say the least.) But for the time being, it's better than non-ejecting drive.
Greetings! Wanted to share one method I've used with success to recondition rubber spindle hubs in a variety of aging optical disc mechanisms (LD, CD, DVD). There is a coating product known as "Plasti Dip" sold in different packages, perhaps best known for dipping hand tools to form a rubber grip. If thinned with naphtha it can be brushed onto an aging spindle hub to restore grip. Can be done repeatedly to increase thickness.
Good to know.
I personally have not had any drives where the rubber on the spindle has gone bad, though. And in case of O/P's drive, this also doesn't seem to be the case. But good to know the name of one such product, nevertheless.
As a side note, I really hate the plastic grip coating that tool manufacturers (and some PC peripheral manufacturers) put on. Seems that the rubber coating always degrades after a while (especially with grease) and then becomes a goey, sticky mess. Put one of them Lenovo laptops on my desk, and I will instantly throw it out my window. I used to work as a restoration tech in a big chain store to recondition open-box products, and I cannot tell you how much I hate those rubber-coated stuff. As a side note #2, be careful not to use amonia-based window cleaners on this coating - these will partially eat through it too.
Oh, yes! I think that this might actually work. Unfortunately, I ended up breaking one of the plastic gears inside while trying to disassemble my drive. I didn't realize that there was a retention clip on the bottom side of the part I was levering and it snapped.
I will definitely try this one next time, as it aligns with the problem I was having exactly.
Also, electrical tape adhesive tends to turn sticky and gross as it ages. I would recommend trying gaffers tape instead.
Oh, yes! I think that this might actually work. Unfortunately, I ended up breaking one of the plastic gears inside while trying to disassemble my drive. I didn't realize that there was a retention clip on the bottom side of the part I was levering and it snapped.
That's unfortunate indeed.
But if by any chance/luck that Magicspeed drive is OEMed my someone else, maybe you can find a spare gear off of that.
I know I have a couple of parts drives that will never work properly again (had their mainboards taken by a scrapper, but the rest of the drive left mostly intact, including the gears.) So if you have a picture of the broken gear, maybe someone (or myself) might be able to pull that from a spare junk drive.
Also, electrical tape adhesive tends to turn sticky and gross as it ages.
Agreed.
I actually really dislike using tape of any kind as a "permanent" solution/fix exactly for this reason.
Electrical tape tends to shrink and turn sticky indeed.
Masking tape tends to "dry out" on the surface and sometimes fall off, but leave a sticky residue behind.
Office / postal tape behaves kinds of similarly to masking tape, but takes longer to get there... but its relatively smooth surface isn't exactly fit for the application intended in this thread.
And "duct tape"... nah, I hate this stuff the most. Seems to never hold onto anything for too long and quickly leaves a sticky residue that makes it a pain to clean off. I don't know why people even buy this stuff. It's the lousiest of tapes.
The only tapes that don't seem to suffer from the above mentioned symptoms (too much or rarely) are aluminum/copper tape and Kapton tape.
But anyways, indeed I don't suggest to anyone to expect the above fix to be a permanent solution, at least with electrical tape.
I have found it depends a lot on the electrical tape used. I have some things that are more than 10 years old at this point with tape in it which is not sticky or hardened up or otherwise weird, and the tape is of Folsen brand. I have also had good results with Tesa brand tape, but anything else and it turns into sticky gooey mess just after a year or two. The tape rolls themselves are sometimes going like that even, I just toss them out at that point...
Kapton tape is good though, I use it over others when it makes sense. I have only found one weakness of it, at least for the chinese made stuff, which is that things that get warm will cause the tape to get brittle over time. I have few things where the tape has lost its durability and all have been near heatsinks or even as insulator in place of silpad or mica sheet. It is a lot better that mica is particular, but if you ever disturb the transistors you probably should replace the tape too.
Rubber bands are the most fragile parts of just about any audio/video player. I wonder if there have been "rubber band-free" player designs.
I've got a band free VCR.... thank god I can close the door on the cabinet it's in though, gear whine is baaaad. RAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR
edit: Oh the irony is, they put cheap caps in the PSU, died at 14months old, recapped mine, it was past the era of TV/Video repair being a general thing, so they maybe all got ewasted, if you were particularly hoping to find a beltless one, even if it's loud.
Unicorn herding operations are proceeding, but all the totes of hens teeth and barrels of rocking horse poop give them plenty of hiding spots.
I've also had some drives with cracked nylon cogwheels, when new they were pressed tight onto the shaft with some tension, but after years of use they can crack and then the shaft spins but not the cogwheel.
I've had a bunch of those also over the years. More often then not the gear is different from any I have around. It makes me like units with belts more.
To the OP - I do think this sounds like a belt slip issue, in my cases it always has been. Not enough torque to get things going initially, separating the drive/magnet before the tray can come out. When the the drive is horizontal gravity/weight of the disc drive motor helps this process, when you place it on it's side this is no longer the case hence it makes it worse
