fosterwj03 wrote on 2024-09-06, 02:17:

I've recently done some tests of Radeon 9000-series cards with Windows 9x on both the P5PE-VM and a Itox G7S620. Both use the 865 chipset. The P5PE-VM hosts a Core 2 Extreme x6800 (2.93 GHz) and the G7S620 hosts a Pentium D 945 (3.4 GHz). Both platforms work just fine with Windows 98.

I've found that the Core 2 outscores the Pentium D in all compute benchmarks I've run to date. As an example, The Core 2 gets a CPU Mark score of a bit over 1100 in 3DMark 2000, while the Pentium D gets a score of a bit over 600. Now, I don't think the Core 2 is twice as fast in all applications, but it is clearly faster. You won't hold back a high-end AGP GPU with a fast Core 2 processor.

The Core2 was that big of a jump over the P4, even the lowest end Core2 based Pentium will be significantly faster than even the fastest dual core P4, you can believe the benchmarks both your own testing and ones you'll find online.

Core2 was Intels Athlon 64 moment.

Trashbytes wrote on 2024-09-06, 07:06:

Core2 was Intels Athlon 64 moment.

Seconded. AMD suffered a great blow and went into a decade-long recession (2006 to 2017) until the first generation of Ryzen hit the market. The huge success of Core family caused many computer novices of early- to mid-2010s didn't even know the existence of non-Intel CPU (heck, even the contemporary Macs were Intel-based).

DudeFace wrote on 2024-09-05, 18:37:

dormcat wrote on 2024-09-05, 18:13:

The Serpent Rider wrote on 2024-09-05, 17:39:

AsRock 775i65G R2.0/R3.0 is better.

Certainly, but the "Holy Grail" of C2Q/C2E-compatible AGP board doesn't come by easily or cheaply. 😅

the agp board i use (MSI PM8PM-V) supports the Q2E x6800 the last time i checked ebay they were going for £130 which i refuse to pay for an old cpu, seems alot of the boards from this era that support Core2Duos only go up to the e6700/X6800, i did try updating the microcode for a Q9450 but it was a no go, must be a hardware limitation, i did manage to get some later cpus with the 1067cpuid's working but you have the issue with the speedstep bug which makes the cpu run with half the multiplier, there is a fix but it's beyond my knowledge as it involves hacking the bios, i know theres someone on the biosmods site that knows the trick, but i think its a guarded secret. 🤣.

The P5PE-VM is the most widely available on the market, but it was still hard for me to find one. I bought it in my country from a seller in the state of Amazonas, in the heart of the jungle, the most unlikely place to find one. I paid only 18 dollars, but when I received it I noticed bulging 6.3v capacitors. On the Retroweb website there is a warning about this problem with this board. I will have to replace the 12 before testing the board, I hope the cheap one doesn't end up being expensive.

It's more about chipsets than processors IMO. There are a few core2duo compatible 775 boards with AGP but they are often difficult to find and not cheap. I own one with a via chipset. It works great for XP, but I had nothing but problems in 98. My socket 468 board with an intel 965p chipset is great though. Pentium IV is plenty over kill for windows 98. Whatever you do just stick to intel chipsets.

gmaverick2k wrote on 2024-09-05, 22:02:

Don't do it. I've gone through many an LGA 775 build and have multiple board versions including the conroe865. The 440bx platform, although slower beats these in terms of compatability and most importantly stability for win 98. I'd veer away from dual booting and would dedicate a build to an o/s personally, one less thing to go wrong.

I really do, but I've done this so many times that I don't worry about it as much anymore, because over time, solving problems ends up becoming commonplace. I have a triple-boot, 98, XP, 7 with an Asus P5KPL Pcie and Q9550, SSD, 4GB ram, all systems have their root directory as 'C' to avoid possible problems, but since it's a machine more focused on modern games, I had to leave 98 aside so as not to have to change the GPU for an X550. I also have a Pentium 3 PC, but I leave it with a weaker processor to avoid problems with games that bug. My interest in Dual booting with XP on this machine is to use it for arcade games on the CRT TV through component RGB, taking advantage of the GPU's great compatibility with CRTemudriver. This way I would have the best of both worlds, 98 and arcade+emulators on the CRT TV.

mothergoose729 wrote on 2024-09-06, 15:11:

My socket 468 board with an intel 965p chipset is great though.

P965 was a chipset designed for Core 2 but also with backward compatibility of some newer NetBurst CPU; MB using P965 or any other 965 family chipset tended to use LGA775 instead of Socket 478.

I couldn't find any MB with the combination of S478 and P965; could you provide its make and model?

mothergoose729 wrote on 2024-09-06, 15:11:

Pentium IV is plenty over kill for windows 98.

Only if you stick with "mainstream" resolution back then i.e. 1024 x 768 or less. If you push Win98 games with max resolution (usually 1600 x 1200) and visual effects then even a Tualatin-S and a matching high-end GPU (GF3 Ti 500, for example) might not be good enough.

dormcat wrote on 2024-09-06, 15:44:

P965 was a chipset designed for Core 2 but also with backward compatibility of some newer NetBurst CPU; MB using P965 or any oth […]
Show full quote

mothergoose729 wrote on 2024-09-06, 15:11:

My socket 468 board with an intel 965p chipset is great though.

P965 was a chipset designed for Core 2 but also with backward compatibility of some newer NetBurst CPU; MB using P965 or any other 965 family chipset tended to use LGA775 instead of Socket 478.

I couldn't find any MB with the combination of S478 and P965; could you provide its make and model?

mothergoose729 wrote on 2024-09-06, 15:11:

Pentium IV is plenty over kill for windows 98.

Only if you stick with "mainstream" resolution back then i.e. 1024 x 768 or less. If you push Win98 games with max resolution (usually 1600 x 1200) and visual effects then even a Tualatin-S and a matching high-end GPU (GF3 Ti 500, for example) might not be good enough.

This argument is so stupid. We are talking about like two games. A P4 at 2.8ghz is way faster than a Tualatin-S. You can accept 40-50 fps. You can play at lower resolutions. You can play those games on other computers. Your retro machine doesn't have to be everything for every game.

If you start optimizing like that, why not just play on a modern computer with emulators or compatibility layers? How can a core2duo compete with a Ryzen 7000 and a RTX 44090? It's so silly. Crysis exists for XP right. If your computer can't max crysis is it a real XP machine?

And then there is a distinction between what is possible and what is practical. If you want to build a frankenstein machine that is a goal unto itself. Have at it! If you want to play games and you don't want to spend hundreds of dollars looking for obscure boards, and you don't want to sort out weird hardware compatibility problems, then IMO pick a stable chipsets and a decent GPU and enjoy your games.

mothergoose729 wrote on 2024-09-06, 16:03:

If you start optimizing like that, why not just play on a modern computer with emulators or compatibility layers? How can a core2duo compete with a Ryzen 7000 and a RTX 44090? It's so silly. Crysis exists for XP right. If your computer can't max crysis is it a real XP machine?

There are edge cases where one may want to run a very overpowered Win9x machine, but as you say, it's only a couple of games. As an example, maybe someone wants to play Quake 3 v1.17 with A3D 2.0 support at 1600x1200 with 4xAA and 16xAF. You'd need an Aureal Vortex 2 card for that, and those only work correctly under Win9x.

However, with a bit of effort, this is doable on a cheaper and much more easily obtainable PCIe based LGA775 system. No need to hunt for exotic LGA775 boards which have AGP and still feature full Win9x driver support, if building an overpowered system is the main goal.

Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2024-09-06, 16:33:

mothergoose729 wrote on 2024-09-06, 16:03:

If you start optimizing like that, why not just play on a modern computer with emulators or compatibility layers? How can a core2duo compete with a Ryzen 7000 and a RTX 44090? It's so silly. Crysis exists for XP right. If your computer can't max crysis is it a real XP machine?

There are edge cases where you want to run a very overpowered Win9x machine, but as you say, it's only a couple of games. As an example, maybe someone wants to play Quake 3 v1.17 with A3D 2.0 support at 1600x1200 with 4xAA and 16xAF. You'd need an Aureal Vortex 2 card for that, and those only work correctly under Win9x.

However, with a bit of effort, this is doable on a cheaper and much more easily obtainable PCIe based LGA775 system. No need to hunt for exotic LGA775 boards which have AGP and still feature full Win9x driver support, if building an overpowered system is the main goal.

Indeed Win98 supports PCIe and there are many more boards that support CD2 with PCie slots and also support 98. Support here is not full driver support naturally as while 98 installs and runs not ALL motherboard features will work ..sound is usually one of them.

Still there wont be anything missing you cant easily replace with a PCI card that does have full 98 support.

There are a number of ASROCK boards that would be perfect here with a E8400, 6800Gt and A3D card for a killer 98 overkill box and still wont cost as much as trying to get a compatible AGP CD2 motherboard. (Could even use a FX9590 or XT850 XT PE PCIe if you have one and both are far far cheaper than their AGP brothers)

The Serpent Rider wrote on 2024-09-05, 17:39:

Asus P5PE-VM

AsRock 775i65G R2.0/R3.0 is better.

Care to elaborate? (I have both boards, curious as to why you think the AsRock is better).

mockingbird wrote on 2024-09-06, 17:07:

The Serpent Rider wrote on 2024-09-05, 17:39:

Asus P5PE-VM

AsRock 775i65G R2.0/R3.0 is better.

Care to elaborate? (I have both boards, curious as to why you think the AsRock is better).

CPU support alone especially the 3.0 revision.

mothergoose729 wrote on 2024-09-06, 16:03:

This argument is so stupid.

mothergoose729 wrote on 2024-09-06, 16:03:

It's so silly.

Well well well. 👏 👏 👏

mothergoose729 wrote on 2024-09-06, 16:03:

Your retro machine doesn't have to be everything for every game.

Sure it doesn't. I was merely explaining that under certain circumstances a high-end Pentium 3 build could still be struggling under Win9x. If you found such circumstances completely irrelevant to you, so be it. No harm done.

mothergoose729 wrote on 2024-09-06, 16:03:

And then there is a distinction between what is possible and what is practical.

Allow me to quote from another thread: "Vintage computers are not practical, but that isn't the point."

There are people either install the newest software on oldest hardware possible, or vice versa. People overclock with dry ice or liquid nitrogen. People benchmark every possible HW/SW combinations to reach highest scores achievable. People search for years just for a single piece of obscure hardware. Et cetera. I've done none of these but I respect and appreciate their efforts and try to learn from them. In return I share my 2-cents of knowledge and experience to the community when I have a chance.

Attacking others is not a healthy attitude. Seriously.

And I'm still looking for a motherboard with Socket 478 (or "468" for that matter) + P965 chipset. Would you like to enlighten me, please? 😉

Trashbytes wrote on 2024-09-06, 17:12:

CPU support alone especially the 3.0 revision.

No sir, P5PE-VM works with 45nm CPUs with the modified BIOS.

mockingbird wrote on 2024-09-06, 18:14:

Trashbytes wrote on 2024-09-06, 17:12:

CPU support alone especially the 3.0 revision.

No sir, P5PE-VM works with 45nm CPUs with the modified BIOS.

775i65G R3.0 <---Specifically this model

Asrock board does out of the box no modding required, Asrock board also is of higher quality and doesn't have the issue of bad caps in my experience, the ASUS board is one of their low end budget boards and its quality reflects this. The Asrock board also has more USB ports available on the back panel.

But hey if ASUS boards are your thing then have at it, you like it and that's all that matters here.

I will say the ASUS board has its power connector in a far better spot instead of the asinine placing ASROCK went with.

dormcat wrote on 2024-09-06, 15:44:

mothergoose729 wrote on 2024-09-06, 15:11:

My socket 468 board with an intel 965p chipset is great though.

P965 was a chipset designed for Core 2 but also with backward compatibility of some newer NetBurst CPU; MB using P965 or any other 965 family chipset tended to use LGA775 instead of Socket 478.

I couldn't find any MB with the combination of S478 and P965; could you provide its make and model?

Isn't it a typo? Socket 478 on Intel 865P...

There were weird amalgamations on Socket 478 and later intel PCIe chipsets like G31.

VivienM wrote on 2024-09-06, 20:25:

Isn't it a typo? Socket 478 on Intel 865P...

Ah that would make much more sense. Thank you.

The Serpent Rider wrote on 2024-09-06, 20:39:

There were weird amalgamations on Socket 478 and later intel PCIe chipsets like G31.

Wow. Just. Wow.
Visiting VOGONS means learning new stuff every day. 😸

gundstaff wrote on 2024-09-06, 15:03:

The P5PE-VM is the most widely available on the market, but it was still hard for me to find one. I bought it in my country from a seller in the state of Amazonas, in the heart of the jungle, the most unlikely place to find one. I paid only 18 dollars, but when I received it I noticed bulging 6.3v capacitors. On the Retroweb website there is a warning about this problem with this board. I will have to replace the 12 before testing the board, I hope the cheap one doesn't end up being expensive.

thats pretty cool you could find one out there, but yeah the problem with caps seems to be a common problem for most people with boards from this era, the MSI board i've got funnily enough also had bulging/leaking caps, 11 in total also 6.3v either 1000 or 1500uf, the board still functioned fine, i only paid £2 for the board in a complete pc back in 2018, i decieded it was a keeper as it had drivers for win95 upwards and a VIA chipset for working sound in DOS, so spent about £20 on some panasonic caps and replaced them with a cheap soldering iron, and ive been using it since, definitely an improvement over my 478 pentium 4.

gundstaff wrote on 2024-09-06, 15:25:

I really do, but I've done this so many times that I don't worry about it as much anymore, because over time, solving problems ends up becoming commonplace. I have a triple-boot, 98, XP, 7 with an Asus P5KPL Pcie and Q9550, SSD, 4GB ram, all systems have their root directory as 'C' to avoid possible problems, but since it's a machine more focused on modern games, I had to leave 98 aside so as not to have to change the GPU for an X550. I also have a Pentium 3 PC, but I leave it with a weaker processor to avoid problems with games that bug. My interest in Dual booting with XP on this machine is to use it for arcade games on the CRT TV through component RGB, taking advantage of the GPU's great compatibility with CRTemudriver. This way I would have the best of both worlds, 98 and arcade+emulators on the CRT TV.

my other system is similar spec to yours, Gigabyte G31m-ES2L pcie with a 512mb 7950gt, 4GB ram, i did have a Q9450 but didnt have any noticable increase in fps so went back to a core2duo, also runs 98 upto win 11, but mainly win7, which i also use for arcade games in mame as well as taito typeX 1+2/ sega ringedge/ringwide as those machines are a similar spec, also most of the pc releases from those systems will run on an nvidia 7 series gpu, at some point i wanna pick up a vga to rgb scart cable so i can play on my trinitron.

Trashbytes wrote on 2024-09-06, 18:46:

775i65G R3.0 <---Specifically this model

Eh, I've got Rev 2.04... Only difference between the two is newer components on the Rev 3 (i/o chip swapped from Winbond to Nuvoton, CPU monitoring chip swapped to a a smaller footprint part, VRM changes, nothing major)...

Caps are OST RLX series and Evercon LE, and the Rev 3's caps ain't much better, from what I can tell. With the P5PE-VM you will get what was in Asus' grab bag, either Panasonic FJ or Nichicon KZG (you don't want KZG).

To conclude, you don't make a compelling argument. I'm keeping the AsRock as a backup, but I see absolutely no reason to swap them.

i have three pieces of asus p5pe-vm. If you can go for revision 1.03G, it has no problem with bulging caps.