I think the Riva128 of a diamond viper v330 PCI should make more sense than a Virge.

But... you have a Voodoo 1. So, please say what chip is on your trio card? Or do you have more?

Matrox Millennium or Mystique would be a good period correct option. I currently use a Matrox Mystique in each of my 1996 builds.

I have a Matrox G200 (PCI, 8 MB VRAM) in my Pentium MMX 233. Like the Millennium, Mystique, and Mil 2, it has excellent compatibility with mid to late 90s operating systems. It can handle some extremely high resolutions and color depths. It is also DirectX compliant, but you might not run many Windows 3D games on a slower Pentium.

They also don't cost an arm and a leg.

Shponglefan wrote on 2024-09-14, 23:26:

Matrox Millennium or Mystique would be a good period correct option. I currently use a Matrox Mystique in each of my 1996 builds.

could be an option.

fosterwj03 wrote on 2024-09-15, 00:05:

I have a Matrox G200 (PCI, 8 MB VRAM) in my Pentium MMX 233. Like the Millennium, Mystique, and Mil 2, it has excellent compatibility with mid to late 90s operating systems. It can handle some extremely high resolutions and color depths. It is also DirectX compliant, but you might not run many Windows 3D games on a slower Pentium.

They also don't cost an arm and a leg.

Want to run dos games like duke nukem 3d, shadow warrior, blood, quake
Also want to run windows 95 games as well. Earlier ones. which runs on pentium 75 till 166 mhz.
example like GTA 1 + addons ..Red alert windows 95 edition.. And more i cant mentioned now.. (also the games that came with the voodoo II card like virtua scooter, incoming..
I dont need a faster pentium machine for the rest, because i have already a pentium II 333 / 350 Mhz next to it.. Which runs pentium 166 till Pentium II 350 games just as fine as faster then on a regular pentium.

Disruptor wrote on 2024-09-14, 23:10:

I think the Riva128 of a diamond viper v330 PCI should make more sense than a Virge.

But... you have a Voodoo 1. So, please say what chip is on your trio card? Or do you have more?

I have to check which cards i have here. But that arent much. Probably 6 or 7 cards.

How about making a list of items you currently own, plan to acquire in a foreseeable future, and those you want to exclude?

Games in your list don't seem to be speed sensitive; on the contrary, IIRC Pentium 133-166 could be struggling if you crank up Duke Nukem 3D to 640x480.

Historically probably 80% of machines like that ran with S3 whatever back in the day.

Robin4 wrote on 2024-09-14, 22:43:

Thinking about to change this one probably for a 2 - 4MB card. Dont want to use a VIRGE card.. just because everyone seems to ha […]
Show full quote

Thinking about to change this one probably for a 2 - 4MB card.
Dont want to use a VIRGE card.. just because everyone seems to have one.

Cards that i have in mind:
- Dont know if a trio card is to weak and would be better for a 486 instead?)

Why did you count the trio to your list?
The 2d core of a VIRGE is the same as the TRIO64 version:

Correction:
S3 Trio64, S3 Trio64V+ (1/2/4MB FPM/EDO ram) = S3 ViRGE (2/4MB EDO ram) ; (RAMDAC 135MHz)

S3 Trio64V2/DX (1/2/4MB EDO ram) = S3 ViRGE/DX (2/4MB EDO ram), S3 ViRGE/GX (2/4MB SG ram) ; (RAMDAC 170MHz)

S3 ViRGE/VX ( Highend version with 8MB VRAM support and enhanced RAMDAC 220MHz.)

Robin4 wrote on 2024-09-14, 22:43:

Like to run in 640x480 resolution at least.. How much graphics memory do i need to have to run this resolution?

And what graphics card is most optimal for this system?

Robin4 wrote on 2024-09-15, 00:18:

Want to run dos games like duke nukem 3d, shadow warrior, blood, quake Also want to run windows 95 games as well. Earlier ones. […]
Show full quote

Want to run dos games like duke nukem 3d, shadow warrior, blood, quake
Also want to run windows 95 games as well. Earlier ones. which runs on pentium 75 till 166 mhz.
example like GTA 1 + addons ..Red alert windows 95 edition.. And more i cant mentioned now.. (also the games that came with the voodoo II card like virtua scooter, incoming..
I dont need a faster pentium machine for the rest, because i have already a pentium II 333 / 350 Mhz next to it.. Which runs pentium 166 till Pentium II 350 games just as fine as faster then on a regular pentium.

Well the tricky part is the 640x480 resolution. Late DOS stuff is mostly software rendered, so a videocard doesn't matter too much. Pentium 133 is just enough to run Quake at 320x240 at 30FPS. Your P2 would be more suited to run Quake at 640x480, I think P2-400 is actually a safe bet for that.

And yeah, video memory is mostly helpful for very high resolutions (like 1024x768), it won't change things at 640x480. But your Tseng ET4000 card does support memory interleaving when upgraded to 2MB (faster memory bandwidth). Only matters for Windows stuff though IIRC.

melbar wrote on 2024-09-15, 07:24:

Why did you count the trio to your list? The 2d core of a VIRGE is the same as the TRIO64 version: […]
Show full quote

Robin4 wrote on 2024-09-14, 22:43:

Thinking about to change this one probably for a 2 - 4MB card. Dont want to use a VIRGE card.. just because everyone seems to ha […]
Show full quote

Thinking about to change this one probably for a 2 - 4MB card.
Dont want to use a VIRGE card.. just because everyone seems to have one.

Cards that i have in mind:
- Dont know if a trio card is to weak and would be better for a 486 instead?)

Why did you count the trio to your list?
The 2d core of a VIRGE is the same as the TRIO64 version:

S3 Trio64, S3 Trio64V+ (1/2/4MB FPM/EDO ram) = S3 ViRGE (2/4MB EDO ram) ; (RAMDAC 135MHz)

S3 Trio64V2/DX (1/2/4MB EDO ram) = S3 ViRGE/DX (2/4MB EDO ram), S3 ViRGE/GX (2/4MB SG ram) ; (RAMDAC 170MHz)

S3 ViRGE/VX ( Highend version with 8MB VRAM support and enhanced RAMDAC 220MHz.)

Well, according to mkarcher S3 Trio64 have different 2D core than S3 Virge: Re: non-3D PCI graphics card to use with Voodoo 2 1000

The common graphics cards for Pentium 133-200 for runing Quake 1/2, Carmageddon were 3dfx/opengl cards like the Voodoo 2's, Voodoo Banshee. ATI 3D Rage.

The Virge cards do support an openGL wrapper

Ultimately you want a PCI S3 trio64 /DX 3D or is it a VX 3D with at least 2 or 4 mb of Memory.
That will play 95% of DOS Games in Good Quality and Performance.

But for the Ultimate setup pair that card with a PCI Voodoo-2

This setup will probably play 99% of all PC DOS games.

zyga64 wrote on 2024-09-15, 08:12:

Well, according to mkarcher S3 Trio64 have different 2D core than S3 Virge: Re: non-3D PCI graphics card to use with Voodoo 2 1000

Yes, you're right. Thanks for the hint.
Have correted my comment...
Correction:
S3 Trio64, S3 Trio64V+ (1/2/4MB FPM/EDO ram) = S3 ViRGE (2/4MB EDO ram) ; (RAMDAC 135MHz)

Sources:
Trio32_Trio64_Graphics_Accelerators
Trio64V+_Integrated_Graphics_Video_Accelerator
ViRGE_Integrated_3D_Accelerator

Since you go for the voodoo for acceleration, you may go for some exotic but less performant card that does the trick.

Some possibilities:
Avance Logic ALG2330
Cirrus GD54xx
S3 864/868/964/968

Also the suggested ATI Rage IIc is just fine for this purpose.

(This motherboard was used in the early Highscreen SkyMini systems; had one earlier)

Agree S3 Trio makes no sense as is just a previous generation Virge.

Personally I'd go for one of the cards on this list, so you can mess around with other 3d acceleration games.
3D Accelerated Games List (Proprietary APIs - No 3DFX/Direct3D)

The Virge does have the most interesting list but the Mystique which your already considering also has a few games.

MikeSG wrote on 2024-09-15, 08:13:

The Virge cards do support an openGL wrapper

But not a very good one. They won't substitute blend functions and make alpha channels for them, they're nowhere near the QOL of the PowerVR Extreme MiniGL drivers. There's also no alpha modulation. There's only a very few handful of GL games a Virge can play - Crime Cities (which techland wrote their own s3dtk minigl for in 2000 because what the heck), and GLQuake with S3's MiniGL (nothing alpha modulates, the worst thing that happens is the lightmap being approximated to alpha and updated).

(it'd be really 'fun' for some to make new games for the Virge by sticking to 320x240 and avoiding all the temptations of blending, rectangle textures, high polygon counts, alpha modulation, alphatests/depthtests, overlapping polygons, etc.)

In my Pentium 233MMX I run a Matrox Mill 2 8mb PCI + Voodoo 2 12mb PCI. Works great.

The voodoo 2 is a bit overkill but a voodoo 1 would limit resolution etc, so its a good fit.

EDIT: On this machine I just play Windows games, if I used Dos then S3 Trio/Virge would probably make more sense.

Robin4 wrote on 2024-09-15, 00:18:

Want to run dos games like duke nukem 3d, shadow warrior, blood, quake
Also want to run windows 95 games as well. Earlier ones. which runs on pentium 75 till 166 mhz.

Based on this, I'll double down on my recommendation for a Matrox card. It's one of the faster cards for DOS and Windows (for that era), and has top-tier image quality to boot.

I've previously benchmarked a Matrox Mystique (4MB) versus an S3 Trio64+ in DOS.

It will run Build Engine games at a playable frame rate at 640x480. For example, on Duke Nukem 3D at 640x480, the Matrox card delivered 40 FPS (starting rooftop). In comparison, the S3 Trio64+ delivered 27 FPS (starting rooftop).

I also agree with the previous poster that a Voodoo2 is overkill and largely pointless for a DOS / Win95 build, whereas a Voodoo1 is ideal. It's a good choice for period correct GLQuake, and there are some early Voodoo1 specific games that can be run as well.