VOGONS


First post, by LaFey

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Greetings,

I have a A2386DX Bridgeboard on my Amiga 2000 - I have an ISA graphics card connected - and an unknown one to me - I know it is a long shot, but can someone identify the said board from profile alone? It is the card on the bottom left. Only output in the back is the default DB15.

Thanks in advance - I don't have ready access to the computer otherwise I would just remove the board and try to identify from there.

Whats-App-Image-2024-09-22-at-17-14-11-1.jpg

Reply 2 of 12, by LaFey

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Thermalwrong wrote on 2024-09-22, 18:14:

The card shape is pretty distinctive with that VESA connector and I know it well because I spent ages repairing one once. It's a Trident VGA 8900C like one of these: https://www.vgamuseum.info/index.php/companie … ident-tvga8900c

Thank you Sir!

If you don't mind me asking, what is your overall opinion on this card?

Reply 3 of 12, by CharlieFoxtrot

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LaFey wrote on 2024-09-22, 18:48:
Thermalwrong wrote on 2024-09-22, 18:14:

The card shape is pretty distinctive with that VESA connector and I know it well because I spent ages repairing one once. It's a Trident VGA 8900C like one of these: https://www.vgamuseum.info/index.php/companie … ident-tvga8900c

Thank you Sir!

If you don't mind me asking, what is your overall opinion on this card?

I’m not the guy you asked this, but 8900C was a cheapo graphics chip you got with many prebuilts that were made as cheap as possible. They are probably one of the slowest SVGA cards ever made, certainly for the time they were sold and there were many better options available for a fraction of higher price. They had no Windows acceleration and because of the performance issues, they were almost useless for SVGA. Being cheap was their main feature.

For basic VGA stuff they probably are usable and they aren’t that bottlenecked on something like 286 or low-end 386s. But these cards could be often found with fast 386s and 486s and they will have a huge impact on the graphics performance on anything with bit more performance.

Reply 5 of 12, by LaFey

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CharlieFoxtrot wrote on 2024-09-23, 12:01:
LaFey wrote on 2024-09-22, 18:48:
Thermalwrong wrote on 2024-09-22, 18:14:

The card shape is pretty distinctive with that VESA connector and I know it well because I spent ages repairing one once. It's a Trident VGA 8900C like one of these: https://www.vgamuseum.info/index.php/companie … ident-tvga8900c

Thank you Sir!

If you don't mind me asking, what is your overall opinion on this card?

I’m not the guy you asked this, but 8900C was a cheapo graphics chip you got with many prebuilts that were made as cheap as possible. They are probably one of the slowest SVGA cards ever made, certainly for the time they were sold and there were many better options available for a fraction of higher price. They had no Windows acceleration and because of the performance issues, they were almost useless for SVGA. Being cheap was their main feature.

For basic VGA stuff they probably are usable and they aren’t that bottlenecked on something like 286 or low-end 386s. But these cards could be often found with fast 386s and 486s and they will have a huge impact on the graphics performance on anything with bit more performance.

Yes, for the use, it is more than enough. This particular bridgeboard emulates a 286 at 8mhz so I'm not expecting too much other than simple MS-DOS programs or text adventure games - I'd like to try and fire up Prince of Persia to see how it handles it but I have a faulty Commodore 2084s monitor I have to deal with first.

Reply 6 of 12, by mkarcher

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This card on the VGA museum, which is indeed a TVGA8900C, is a perfect match to the profile photo.

I checked the neighbouring chipsets: The predecessor TVGA8900B and the successors TVGA8900C, CL and D. None of them has a matching PCB at the VGA museum, so the guess "TVGA8900C" seems to be spot on. There are other cards with the "old-style" card-edge feature connector, for example early ET4000 cards, as already mentioned in this thread, but the amount of detail that matches the specific TVGA8900C I linked makes it very unlikely that there is another hit.

I wouldn't talk that negative about the TVGA8900C as CharlieFoxtrott. It is true that Trident was clearly at the low end of the VGA spectrum, and their cards were sold for the price, not for the speed or quality. Nevertheless, the TVGA8900 series is what I would call "2nd generation SVGA", supporting up to 1MB of video RAM and 1024x768 at 256 colors. The TVGA8900 chips got better and faster as the series evolved, and the TVGA8900D is claimed to be at least as fast as an ET4000AX, which is limited by the ISA bus most of the time. They say the 8900CL is "nearly as good as the 8900D", but I am unsure about the 8900C. Still, it will be considerably faster than any 8-bit VGA card (like the original IBM VGA card, which is actually called "PS/2 display adapter"), or 8-bit 1st-generation SVGA cards.

Because 1st-generation SVGA cards used 64k x 4 memory, they had a 32-bit memory bus at the VGA minimum memory size of 256k. 1st-generation cards that supported 512KB of video RAM had 2 banks of 32 bits each. The TVGA8800 is an example for a two-bank 1st generation chip. On the other hand, second-generation SVGA chips use 256k x 4 chips, so you get 32 bit memory bus width only if 1MB is installed. Performance of 2nd-gen chips with less than 1MB of video RAM installed will suffer, and in case of just 256KB video RAM, these cards are degraded to an 8-bit memory bus. Even with the advancement of technology since the design of the original VGA in 1987, they have a hard time providing better performance than the original VGA with its 32-bit memory bus. Installing just 256KB on a TVGA8900C might in fact make it "one of the slowest card available". The photo on the VGA museum I linked shows that card with just two memory chips. That one will be slow. Your card has all eight memory chips populated, so I guess you will have a hard time finding an application that is severely limited by the VGA throughput on that chip if executed on an 8MHz 80286 processor.

You should be able to get acceptable performance even at 800x600 pixels (don't expect fluid full-motion video, though!). At 1024x768 (which is still OK on that card), the CPU will have a hard time keeping up unless only minimal parts of the screen need updating. For games like Prince of Persia or Commander Keen, which are typical games to be played on a 286 processor, the card is more than sufficient.

Reply 7 of 12, by Grzyb

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8900C isn't fast, but provides good CGA and Hercules compatibility modes.

So, a very good match for a low-end 286, where you're more likely to run CGA software than SVGA.

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Reply 8 of 12, by MikeSG

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The 8900D (1997 produced chip) is 40% faster than the 1991 ET4000 card I tested.

The production year on the chip says more than the part number. Higher = better.

Reply 9 of 12, by Grzyb

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MikeSG wrote on 2024-09-24, 10:02:

The 8900D (1997 produced chip) is 40% faster than the 1991 ET4000 card I tested.

I guess there was something wrong with that ET4000 card - probably slow memory chips.

ET4000AX - if optimally configured - hits the ISA bus limit, so nothing non-accelerated can be faster.

I don't know about ET4000C, but it seems it got replaced by the AX already in 1990, so I guess a 1991 card was already AX.

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Reply 10 of 12, by waterbeesje

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Does look like the 8900c Indeed. Wonderful card, very compatible with the old stuff.

Oh and if you thing those are slow, just try any oak 037, chips&tech 451 or ET3000. They are ok. Just fine. With a 286 class setup you won't need 120fps in Quake.

There are some nice games that take advantage of this card. Prince of percia, street rod and SimCity are playable just fine. You may even try games like Rick Dangerous of Crystal Caves and see how they do.

Stuck at 10MHz...

Reply 11 of 12, by BitWrangler

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I had a C&T back in the day I had a love/hate relationship with, minor amount of love because I had two "edge connector on top" cards that were wayyyy slower, one was WD I thought the other was Paradise... might actually have been same chip under different regimes, anyway, those two, crawly, the C&T was fine for 99% of pre 1995 stuff, but was less than optimal on Doom/Quake. The chars/sec memory test I used to favor, (Snooper) used to show it at about 60,000 while those others were down at 10k and the "reasonable" cards were more like 100k and the OMG this is epic cards on overclocked VLB were 200k+

The first time I tried tridents I must have got an old "B" or something, as they seemed to test about the same as that one. Happy to report that there are two 8900D in the located and stored safe part of the stash now, but one had it's socketed chips robbed out for probably a VLB card. However, there's a 9000 Confidential Informant edition (CI) with good socketed chips on, so if that don't run real quick the 8900D is getting them. (Because we hate narcs 🤣 )

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Reply 12 of 12, by kixs

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My first PC 286-16 had C&T VGA card. I never knew how bad it was till I switched the motherboard for the 486SLC-33. I was so disappointed in the SLC as the framerates in F1GP were barely any faster. It wasn't by a mare chance that I got a Trident 8900D for a test. That damn little 486SLC-33 really took off - what a surprise it was 😁

I've tested some Trident 8900CL cards and they are as fast as ET4000AX.

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