Joakim wrote on 2024-10-01, 19:49:

Maybe I will make a graph of this and we could charter a cruise ship and have a conference...

The all you can eat buffet better be good.

Shponglefan wrote on 2024-09-30, 00:31:

I've also noticed prices ease on certain hardware just in the last year. For example, a couple Roland SCC-1 cards sold for about ~$300 (USD) on Ebay. It wasn't that long ago they would sell for much more.

I noticed recently that the corresponding modules sell for far less, which I find a bit baffling given they give you more functionality, more flexibility and don't take up an ISA slot (ok, they need more cables and a bit more room...).

VivienM wrote on 2024-09-30, 01:19:

I have been looking for months for a reasonable DOS/ISA system, and other than maybe two clean Katmai PIII rigs that got away from me because I was slow to make up my mind, I... haven't been able to find anything particularly appealing. Super-duper-yellowed-yucky-looking large OEM systems, AT motherboards, overpriced pre-assembled retro systems that inevitably seem to get one component or two 'wrong', vague listings for systems that don't tell you what any of the cards in them are, etc.

Maybe check amibay too if you don't already.

ratfink wrote on 2024-10-04, 12:21:

Shponglefan wrote on 2024-09-30, 00:31:

I've also noticed prices ease on certain hardware just in the last year. For example, a couple Roland SCC-1 cards sold for about ~$300 (USD) on Ebay. It wasn't that long ago they would sell for much more.

I noticed recently that the corresponding modules sell for far less, which I find a bit baffling given they give you more functionality, more flexibility and don't take up an ISA slot (ok, they need more cables and a bit more room...).

The Roland SCC-1 is also an MPU-401 interface with intelligent mode. Roland MPU-401 interfaces tend to sell for a lot of money, so part of the premium on SCC-1 cards may be for that reason.

Shponglefan wrote on 2024-10-04, 12:41:

The Roland SCC-1 is also an MPU-401 interface with intelligent mode. Roland MPU-401 interfaces tend to sell for a lot of money, so part of the premium on SCC-1 cards may be for that reason.

Oh I see, yes I had forgotten intelliigent mode, thanks.

A lot of people will lose interest when they can achieve the goal (play this game) in another way, that leaves people who are interested in the hardware itself, and there is a natural decline in both number of people and amount of hardware over time.

It won't vanish, there are still very small hobby communities around almost any tech and there are people who are into things from outside their own lifetimes too.

The Win11 upgrades are happening now, I was at my local uni's surplus the other day and there was a literal pallet of Haswell mini-tower Optiplexen. (Also I know someone who works in classroom etc IT/tech there who upgraded things to win11 this summer)

Another factor is that most of that hardware has/had HDD's, and even if an SSD would make them run win11 well it actually makes more sense to do a forklift upgrade since after 7 years you'll start having random failures from age. It can be fun to tinker with one or two of them for yourself, but it really doesn't scale up.

And at the smaller scale you might as well get workstation-class Haswell systems... 😉

I can only speak for myself, but I think I am even more stubbornly hanging on to old OS and old software. I hare the whole modern computing scene - forced upgrades, subscription software - they can keep it.
Keep one relatively modern computer for getting online, do everything possible offline.

Don’t understand why unis and schools are upgrading to win 11 when win7 works fine and it’s not like ms office is a very demanding programs to run
What can win 11 do that win 7 can’t other than drain your wallet

Well now we know their "One windows forever" spiel was bullshit, kids entering a 4 year course aren't gonna wanna put Windows7 on their resume when they leave if we might be on 12 by then.

Greywolf1 wrote on 2024-10-20, 19:36:

Don’t understand why unis and schools are upgrading to win 11 when win7 works fine and it’s not like ms office is a very demanding programs to run
What can win 11 do that win 7 can’t other than drain your wallet

Ummmm... Windows 7 hasn't gotten any security patches (at least without a special contract) since 2020.

You have to be insanely negligent to run software that doesn't get current security patches in a business/large organization connected to the Internet.

Retro systems that don't touch the Internet and are run by people who largely know what they're doing, sure, XP or 7 or whatever is great, but any non-hobbyist running those operating systems and connecting those systems to the Internet?!?!?

My interest in older hardware has not decreased, it has shifted to the future, for the simple logic that hardware is not a work of art, hardware components deteriorate to a greater or lesser extent, and the prices of hardware from the 80s, 90s and early 2000s is ridiculous. Currently, I focus on hardware from the mid-2000s and early 201X.
That mostly involves Windows 7, as what required Vista, has always worked better for me on Windows 7.
My interest is still very much alive, only, based on my experiences, I am not interested in hardware that old at today's prices, too many Voodoo 1 cards have failed me already, and to many overpriced motherboards affected by the capacitor plague.
And I like to use my hardware, not look at it through a glass.
But I didn't get rid of the older hardware, I just don't expand my collection from that era.

Greywolf1 wrote on 2024-10-20, 19:36:

Don’t understand why unis and schools are upgrading to win 11 when win7 works fine and it’s not like ms office is a very demanding programs to run
What can win 11 do that win 7 can’t other than drain your wallet

Teaching and education reaons ?
Computers aren’t just appliances like coffee machines, but teaching tools.
I assume the computers in school are supposed to vaguely resemble the real world.

Edit: There are subtle changes under the hood that most newer OSes have received.
Like a newer version of Unicode, newer fonts, support for new wireless technologies, support for newer USB standards, new filesystems etc.

These aren’t really seen as something spectacular, but their lack thereof is notable on outdated systems such as Windows 7.

And that's the point, really. Using an old PC at home or in a lab/factory is one thing, but using a PC within society is another one.

Always if there's an interoperabillity required, the PC has to be up-to-date.
The internet is not constantly "evolving" maybe, but constantly changing, at least.

Same happens with standards, too. Power Point nolonger is cutting edge, but considered "retro". It's something the old ones (30+) use.
In schools, if you're still using Power Point, you're getting these weird looks now.

Greywolf1 wrote on 2024-10-20, 19:36:

it’s not like ms office is a very demanding programs to run

Um, seriously? When did yout set foot on a school last time? 😟
It's not 2004 anymore, were you can run Office XP on an venerable Windows 98 or 2000 PC.

Schools use Office 365 or a successor of this, which needs Windows10/11. It's software as a service.
And their learning material may depend on this, so that Libre Office or Open Office is out.

Some sudents these days nolonger use pens and paper and books, even, but work on a laptop or a tablet in class room. They're depending on cloud services now. Sadly. 😟

They thus can't simply be given an Windows 3.1 PC or an Apple II and some word processor and call it a day.
They're not working in the computer lab occassionaly like we used to in the 80s, 90s or early 2000s.
(I mean they surely still have one, but it's likely old, abandoned or used for other purposes.)

It rather is other way round. Their class room turns into computer lab more and more.
It's not new, though. This change happened in second half of the 2000s, already, I think.

‐‐
@all what I wrote may seems a bit unfair and unpolite, but we maybe need to ask ourself ocassionaly what we have become.
Are we getting old? Are we becoming the people our parents have warned us about when we were young?
A lot of the discussions and mindsets I read these days on Vogons remind me of the older folks I know of in real life.
It manifests itself in rejection of all sorts of modern things. Later, it results in stuck ways of thinking.
Edit: I'm not excluding myself here. I often ask myself how much I have become like them.

Its not a rejection of modern things it’s the reckless abandonment of perfectly functional devices for the requirement they serve like using a bazooka to kill a fly when a swatter is sufficient. yeah upgrade what needs upgrading for the teaching purposes but most of those systems wil not be used for any intellectual improvement.
Office is office no matter how many times you change its name word and excel still functions the same as they did 20 years ago they just added peripherals and bloat to it and I don’t know anybody who lists OS on their CV unless they are computer or software engineers
For this same reason I have still not bought a new laptop.
A. I don’t understand a lot of the modern specs anymore and
B. All my games and software are win7 and older which won’t function on a new computer anyway and
C. Buying a £1500 laptop or computer so I have enough power to emulate a system that is now e-waste I’ll just buy the ewaste at a fraction of the cost.

But how does this change from the past?
PCs of 21th century could be kept used longer than ever. How can we complain?

In the 80s, an existing ViC20 or PET 2001 was outdated in no time.
Home computers came and go, with exception of the sect -like C64.

In the 90s, an PC was oudated within months. Literally.
Technology had progressed so fast and users had to keep up with it in order not to loose the line.

I know that planned obsolence is a valid topic on its own, but it's not like a change is unfair.
The IT landscape is changing, simply. The late 2000s and 2010s had no to little progress (DX12 too ages, to name a gaming related example).
Even I noticed that everything has gotten so boring since mid-2000s.

It's just natural maybe that Windows 11 demands for encryption hardware (TPM), SSE 4.2 and such.
It's not just about raw performance, but the underlying architecture.

Not that I'm a fan of this, but I do realize that there's a need in IT to make changes. Or rather, that IT feels like it requires those changes.
A lot of things are apparently more than overdue. That's why Microsoft and co do call for some drastic measures, maybe.

In principle the whole x86 architecture is deeply flawed, which events like Meltdown have shown.
Apple also has added cryptographic chips into its computer line years ago.

Edit: What's both especially noticeable and concerning is the shift in IT away from local storage and Personal Computers torwards cloud storage and software as a service.
Things like hardware-based encryption, virtualization and more capable SIMDs in processors might be related to this.
We're living in a society now in which the big money is being made through collecting and selling of information (data).

Edit: Long story short, I think there's at least both a user's and developer's point of view.
Users are unhappy why their powerful, maybe 10 or 15 years old PC is nolonger being supported and considered obsolete.
Meanwhile, some developers are unhappy that they're being forced to support all of those relics and that they can't optimize their code to make use of advanced x86 instructions.

Edit: This reminds of the late 2000s when XP-Mode for Windows 7 was a thing.
Microsoft had issued a special version of MS Virtual PC named "Windows Virtual PC".
That feature was very popular, especially among business users.

But anyway, there was a catch. Windows Virtual PC didn't run on manyoffice PCs. What happened?
Microsoft had compiled Windows Virtual PC in such a way that it made use of hardware-assisted virtualization feature of the processor (AMD-V, Intel VT).
However, that feature wasn't available on most outdated business PCs.
Maybe due to BIOS limitations of absence in silicone.

So Microsoft had to issue an update, which would make Virtual PC work without it, as well.
In essence, turning the wheel back. So it would behave like Virtual PC 2007, which did support both.

So everything was good, right? Well, not quite.
Windows XP runs without hardware-assisted virtualization, but there's a certain performance drop.
The user experience for the poor souls working on outdated PCs surely wasn't nice.
To them, it might have been better if the old PCs had been scrapped in favor of newer models with hardware-assisted virtualization.

That tech growth rate between the 70s up to 2000 shows with all the buggy hardware and particular setups and software everyone was trying so hard to keep up no true standard had been really developed not to mention every little company that couldn’t persist got crushed by bill gates.

As the saying goes information is power and that has held true for thousands of years.
Tho I find it ironic that data protection is being pushed by governments but everything seems to be being led to the abolishment of data protection or simple not owning any data thus no protection.
I find that weird shit happens everyday now I can be browsing websites and minutes later receive personalised emails in my inbox even tho I have not inputted my email anywhere or walking into a shop and getting personal ads in my browser or emails of stuff I’ve been discussing with my wife.

There had been good uses, too, though.
I remember, Windows Vista Ultimate had the BitLocker feature that could encrypt whole HDDs using the TPM chip back then (TPM 1.2, which could be disabled in Setup)..
I think that's useful to external HDDs with private documents, family photos, etc.

After my cell phone from in the house just recently was taken away I do see some uses in such encryption features.
If, say, my external USB HDD had been taken from the desk, then I would have been glad if something like a TPM hardware had encrypted it beforehand.
Not that I'm a paranoid person, but the thought that someone would browse my family photos while giggling like a maniac isn't exactly a nice thought. 😟

Edit: The e-mail thing is strange, indeed. Maybe it was the e-mail provider itself who shared it?

I mean, back in the day it was just normal that each owner of a landline telephone had been automatically in the telephone book, too.
Everyone could look another person up and get the address. Like T-800 did in Terminator 1! 😉

I also remember the change that happened in the 90s.
People switched from normal landline phones to digital phones with an LC display.
Now, it was possible to see the number of the caller! Yay!
Well, not always. People who had a very old landline number didn't have this feature enabled by the default.

So it came to be that my family and me got weird reactions from the called persons.
They didn't take up the phone sometimes or were acting weird.
What happened? Our number wasn't in the display. No big deal, right?

Well, the people, mainly older people were full of mistrust and thought we were scammers or something.
They got so accustomed to that "number in the display" thing that they couldn’t mentally go back to the old, normal days.

Well, I personally estimate the probability that someone breaks into my house and steals my HDD or other media is much lower then a provider taking my data from the cloud without asking me.
And nobody stops me to automatically encrypt my data I store on my NAS.
For the small amount of data I have, even a Core 2 Duo without AES-NI and TPM can do that in reasonible time, assuming I would put sensitive data on such a machine in the first place.

Back to the OP:
you will always see fluctuations in the interest of the people.
COVID, trendy viral YT videos, blogs, etc. can quickly influence the demands on the market.
Anyhow, it's a hobby, so I personally have set some financial limits for myself and inside these constraints I just do what pleases me.
I don't care if the interest drops or not: I do my hobby for myself, not for others.

Jo22 wrote on 2024-10-21, 09:54:

... browse my family photos while giggling like a maniac ...

Umm, is there another way to browse family photos? someone has always got their mouth weird, an eye closed, frozen between expressions like that photo of Beyonce she wants off the net...

YMMD! 😂

Greywolf1 wrote on 2024-10-21, 08:41:

Its not a rejection of modern things it’s the reckless abandonment of perfectly functional devices for the requirement they serv […]
Show full quote

Its not a rejection of modern things it’s the reckless abandonment of perfectly functional devices for the requirement they serve like using a bazooka to kill a fly when a swatter is sufficient. yeah upgrade what needs upgrading for the teaching purposes but most of those systems wil not be used for any intellectual improvement.
Office is office no matter how many times you change its name word and excel still functions the same as they did 20 years ago they just added peripherals and bloat to it and I don’t know anybody who lists OS on their CV unless they are computer or software engineers
For this same reason I have still not bought a new laptop.
A. I don’t understand a lot of the modern specs anymore and
B. All my games and software are win7 and older which won’t function on a new computer anyway and
C. Buying a £1500 laptop or computer so I have enough power to emulate a system that is now e-waste I’ll just buy the ewaste at a fraction of the cost.

Lately I had the idea to try buying new components for a modern desktop computer for a main home/office machine and went for an i3-12100 with 16GB DDR5, NVME disk, an Intel Arc etc..for the usual Office and Internet tasks, while not high end I was expecting a huge speed jump from the old machines I was using in these years like early i3/i7 configs and even the Raspberry Pi 5. Instead while of course faster it doesn't feel that much fast at all at the point the Raspberry Pi 5 surprise me considered the low power required to work. Going back I'd have still used the i7-3770 that I built lately.