Indeed my friend
so many times dead boards come back to life after a few power cycles and a few reseats
I have no scientific explanation but something inside that silicon must be sleeping and needs time to wake up 😀
Never had that experience. My stuff usually either always works or it doesn't at all. I've had a few boards work "shortly" and then die... but those are outlier cases. Also, I tend to recap most stuff I get if it's of any value (and sometimes even if it isn't.) So I suppose that could be why too. 😀
Damn!
This is why I rarely buy "tested" stuff on eBay anymore, except from sellers that have proven feedback with selling old electronics and hardware. If it's some fly-by ebayer or a "thrift-like" store seller that has all kinds of stuff (not just electronics), then good chance they have no idea if the item they are selling really is working or not.
A long while back, I bought a Diamond Radeon HD3870 that was supposed to be working. Of course, as soon as I got it, I noticed it was missing a large logic gate IC on the back (some 74HC-- IC), so I didn't even try to power it on. Was going to email the seller... but then with a bit of research online, I found out what the missing IC should be and found the same exact one on a scrap motherboard. So I just fixed the card and left it at that. Didn't even bother to tell the seller. They had all kinds of clothes and other items, so exactly like an online thrift store. Good chance they just didn't handle/store the card properly, hence how the IC got knocked out. But whatever, I fixed it, the card worked and I couldn't be bothered any further. What's funny is I paid quite a bit (at that time) to get that card. A year later, I acquired something like 2 or 3 more HD3870's, mostly untested... but they all worked and were much much cheaper.
looks like a memory issue, might be temporarily fixable by reflowing the memory ICs.
Memory issue it is... but it won't be the memory IC's that are faulty here (they very rarely are.) It's more than likely the GPU data lines that go to the memory ICs that are going bad... so bad GPU, in short. Thus I'd say reflow the GPU chip first. If that doesn't bring it back, reflowing the memory chips won't do squat. The myth that the BGA solder under the memory ICs is going bad really needs to go away.
Give it a reflow with a hot air gun on the memory ICs, use Kapton tape around them if you have it so SMDs dont get heated up.
That's another big NO-NO I've seen in so-called "repair" videos online.
Do not mask off anything. Masking areas can cause "cold" spots in the PCB, and that can cause warping and uneven pressure. It's better to let everything heat up. Only things you might want to mask off is any electrolytic capacitors and plastic connectors that may be close by the hot air blast radius (so that the former doesn't overheat and the latter doesn't melt.)
If this improves the artifacting then it might be worth reballing
Reballing isn't going to fix a bad GPU or a dying memory IC.
It's 2024... people need to stop believing this myth/crap.
I've worked in a console "repair" shop back in the day and did my fair share of reballs under the direction of the owner. Half the time, they didn't do jack. The other half, they worked... only for a while - just the same as the reflown chips. We came to the conclusion that it was just the multiple heat cycles that made the reballs (slightly) more likely to work than the reflows. This was even more so evident with PS3, where just about neither worked. Unfortunately, neither I nor the owner knew about the bad NEC/Tokin caps going bad... so we just went reflowing and reballing PS3's like madmen, only to get very few working. No surprise, though - PS3 uses a variation of the GeForce 7900 series GPU, which are among the worst in the "bumpgate era".
reflowing may help it may not at this point it cant hurt. I doubt itll last long even if it does help
That's about the only part I agree with.
And in case that a reflow does "fix" anything, the only way you *might* prolong the "repair" is by keeping everything much much cooler than it would be stock. Often times that means gutting the stock cooler and replacing it with something much bigger. Ideally, temperatures on reflown stuff (and actually, even on "virgin" silicon too) should be kept under 55C at all times. I used to say 60C, but even that's a bit too high in some cases. 50-55C under 100% load can become challenging on the higher-end GPUs, especially when the TDP goes above 40-50W and the stock cooler is only a single-slot. It just won't work. There's a reason why so many of these retro GPUs (and even modern ones) die: it's because they never had a proper / adequately-picked cooler for the TDP of the GPU to begin with. 70C under load is NOT OK. Neither is even 60C. Of course, all manufacturers even way back in the day would spit lies all day long, telling everyone those temperatures were "within spec" - yes, within spec if you're OK with a 5 year expected life cycle (on average.)
Not so retro but wanted a couple fair PCIe that can be used under XP so grabbed a GTX 750Ti 2Gb and a GTX 960 SC 4GB (both small frame) for ~ $72.
The 750 will probably go in my XP Q9650 box and the 960 SC will save for a future project/replacement if dies, as I have one in the XP+Win7 box 😀
added: I find it interesting that nVidia released a new Win 7 driver for those card just a few months ago.
Hate posting a reply and then have to edit it because it made no sense 😁 First computer was an IBM 3270 workstation with CGA monitor. Stuff: https://archive.org/details/@horun
Not so retro but wanted a couple fair PCIe that can be used under XP so grabbed a GTX 750Ti 2Gb and a GTX 960 SC 4GB (both small frame) for ~ $72.
The 750 will probably go in my XP Q9650 box and the 960 SC will save for a future project/replacement if dies, as I have one in the XP+Win7 box 😀
added: I find it interesting that nVidia released a new Win 7 driver for those card just a few months ago.
LGA775 is 100% retro (even certified retro by Phil). Love the Q9650. Apparently one of the best overclockers back in the day. A lot of people were getting over 4GHz. Great CPU for those late XP games. I’ve started grabbing LGA775 gear before prices get too crazy.
momakawrote on 2024-11-07, 01:45:Never had that experience. My stuff usually either always works or it doesn't at all. I've had a few boards work "shortly" and t […] Show full quote
Indeed my friend
so many times dead boards come back to life after a few power cycles and a few reseats
I have no scientific explanation but something inside that silicon must be sleeping and needs time to wake up 😀
Never had that experience. My stuff usually either always works or it doesn't at all. I've had a few boards work "shortly" and then die... but those are outlier cases. Also, I tend to recap most stuff I get if it's of any value (and sometimes even if it isn't.) So I suppose that could be why too. 😀
Damn!
This is why I rarely buy "tested" stuff on eBay anymore, except from sellers that have proven feedback with selling old electronics and hardware. If it's some fly-by ebayer or a "thrift-like" store seller that has all kinds of stuff (not just electronics), then good chance they have no idea if the item they are selling really is working or not.
A long while back, I bought a Diamond Radeon HD3870 that was supposed to be working. Of course, as soon as I got it, I noticed it was missing a large logic gate IC on the back (some 74HC-- IC), so I didn't even try to power it on. Was going to email the seller... but then with a bit of research online, I found out what the missing IC should be and found the same exact one on a scrap motherboard. So I just fixed the card and left it at that. Didn't even bother to tell the seller. They had all kinds of clothes and other items, so exactly like an online thrift store. Good chance they just didn't handle/store the card properly, hence how the IC got knocked out. But whatever, I fixed it, the card worked and I couldn't be bothered any further. What's funny is I paid quite a bit (at that time) to get that card. A year later, I acquired something like 2 or 3 more HD3870's, mostly untested... but they all worked and were much much cheaper.
looks like a memory issue, might be temporarily fixable by reflowing the memory ICs.
Memory issue it is... but it won't be the memory IC's that are faulty here (they very rarely are.) It's more than likely the GPU data lines that go to the memory ICs that are going bad... so bad GPU, in short. Thus I'd say reflow the GPU chip first. If that doesn't bring it back, reflowing the memory chips won't do squat. The myth that the BGA solder under the memory ICs is going bad really needs to go away.
Give it a reflow with a hot air gun on the memory ICs, use Kapton tape around them if you have it so SMDs dont get heated up.
That's another big NO-NO I've seen in so-called "repair" videos online.
Do not mask off anything. Masking areas can cause "cold" spots in the PCB, and that can cause warping and uneven pressure. It's better to let everything heat up. Only things you might want to mask off is any electrolytic capacitors and plastic connectors that may be close by the hot air blast radius (so that the former doesn't overheat and the latter doesn't melt.)
If this improves the artifacting then it might be worth reballing
Reballing isn't going to fix a bad GPU or a dying memory IC.
It's 2024... people need to stop believing this myth/crap.
I've worked in a console "repair" shop back in the day and did my fair share of reballs under the direction of the owner. Half the time, they didn't do jack. The other half, they worked... only for a while - just the same as the reflown chips. We came to the conclusion that it was just the multiple heat cycles that made the reballs (slightly) more likely to work than the reflows. This was even more so evident with PS3, where just about neither worked. Unfortunately, neither I nor the owner knew about the bad NEC/Tokin caps going bad... so we just went reflowing and reballing PS3's like madmen, only to get very few working. No surprise, though - PS3 uses a variation of the GeForce 7900 series GPU, which are among the worst in the "bumpgate era".
reflowing may help it may not at this point it cant hurt. I doubt itll last long even if it does help
That's about the only part I agree with.
And in case that a reflow does "fix" anything, the only way you *might* prolong the "repair" is by keeping everything much much cooler than it would be stock. Often times that means gutting the stock cooler and replacing it with something much bigger. Ideally, temperatures on reflown stuff (and actually, even on "virgin" silicon too) should be kept under 55C at all times. I used to say 60C, but even that's a bit too high in some cases. 50-55C under 100% load can become challenging on the higher-end GPUs, especially when the TDP goes above 40-50W and the stock cooler is only a single-slot. It just won't work. There's a reason why so many of these retro GPUs (and even modern ones) die: it's because they never had a proper / adequately-picked cooler for the TDP of the GPU to begin with. 70C under load is NOT OK. Neither is even 60C. Of course, all manufacturers even way back in the day would spit lies all day long, telling everyone those temperatures were "within spec" - yes, within spec if you're OK with a 5 year expected life cycle (on average.)
If its a bad DIE then there isn't much to be done, but I would still for my own peace of mind do the other things even if professionals consider them pointless. At this point there is nothing to lose.
As for Temps .. its got a 2 slot blower cooler on it however its the shit ATI one which was never great to start with, I have a few 3rd party ones that greatly improve temps but under 50c full load is a pipe dream for any GPU unless its in a Rack mounted case with 10k RPM fans blowing on it or its hooked up to custom cooling via a decent rad and even then under 50c at load.. yeah I dont think that even a reasonable target to suggest.
So while I know its what some professionals want but what you want and what you get are two very different things and many factors affect how cool you can get something, especially a 130nm 70watt TDP GPU under full load that was known to run hot even with professional grade cooling solutions.
For most retro GPUs .. 60 - 70c is fine at load for normal use in the real world, we are not using these 24/7 as a daily driver so its fine and you may do more harm than good trying to fit 3rd party cooling to these cards. (MAny dont want 3rd party cooling either .. it spoils the look)
Last edited by Trashbytes on 2024-11-07, 09:08. Edited 1 time in total.
Not so retro but wanted a couple fair PCIe that can be used under XP so grabbed a GTX 750Ti 2Gb and a GTX 960 SC 4GB (both small frame) for ~ $72.
The 750 will probably go in my XP Q9650 box and the 960 SC will save for a future project/replacement if dies, as I have one in the XP+Win7 box 😀
added: I find it interesting that nVidia released a new Win 7 driver for those card just a few months ago.
LGA775 is 100% retro (even certified retro by Phil). Love the Q9650. Apparently one of the best overclockers back in the day. A lot of people were getting over 4GHz. Great CPU for those late XP games. I’ve started grabbing LGA775 gear before prices get too crazy.
That title goes to the Xeon X5470 which was an overclocking king ...can pull insane numbers with that little chip, the Q9650 was ok but you may go through a few of them to find one that will overclock as well as you want, you could grab its bigger sibbling the QX9650 which is unlocked and should give even better results.
This will happily live in my 'main' retro pc, or at least the one I use the most, that is limited to 100Mhz FSB. I had a SL5QV 1Ghz counterpart till today, not a big improvement, but why not maxing it just for the sake of that 😀
Like many of you, I have my modest workshop to play with retro hw with some hardware (mainly S7 and slot 1 as it's the period I'm most interested in), a couple of complete systems, etc. The problem is that I can only go there twice a month approx. so I ended up bringing this little board home and I've found myself having really fun with it recently.
Not very spectacular as it even lacks AGP but I really love its small form factor and good suitability for what I want. Along with a PCI GF6200 it gives very good performace for the games I usually play, and covers the late 90s to early 2000s very appropiately.
Being connected to modern flat TV at living room and modern amenities like USB keyboard or gamepad it's a delight to use it. My final purpose is to design a nice wooden little case for it.
This board came from a NOS but sadly scrapped Intel Dot Station 2300, very curious system with an interesting history here in Spain in the early 2000s. Maybe I will bring myself to write a post about it someday here 😀
Hercules brand was the main topic of the day since i also received a nice Hercules 3D Prophet 9700 pro. And while i already have two Hercules 9700Pro (one blue and one red), this one seems from a later revision because it have the cooling seen on some of the 9800Pro of the same brand. With a heavier front dissipator and a back cooler bolted to it through the PCB holes. Also with larger RAM dissipators.
This was probably a redisign following the issues with the initial cooling solution.
Bought a Socket 754 Sempron 2600+. Seller didn't pay correct postage and so I had to pay extra to Royal mail to deliver it, then find that it won't go in the socket, as some pins were bent. Took me a while to figure out which pins were bent and to straighten them enough to get the CPU in, as my eyesight is poor.
Anyway, CPU works ok in motherboard. Thinking of using it as a Win98 build. Not sure what GPU to use in it. Maybe a Radeon 8500. Just to be different from the nVidia/Intel combo that I always go with.
I’ve started grabbing LGA775 gear before prices get too crazy.
I am considering doing the same. LGA775 gear go for dirt cheap at the moment...
Good idea ! I have a few but could use a spare for replacement full ATX board. Suggest stay away from those micro boards....
You really want one with 4 DIMM sockets, minimum of 3 PCI and a floppy port.... those are a "must have" for a good 775 for XP stuff imho.
I do have a micro Asus P5G41T-MLX and it works fine but no floppy port, only two DIMM sockets and limited PCI slots so not the greatest...
Of course you all know that stuff, just a reminder 🤣😀
Hate posting a reply and then have to edit it because it made no sense 😁 First computer was an IBM 3270 workstation with CGA monitor. Stuff: https://archive.org/details/@horun
Love the Q9650. Apparently one of the best overclockers back in the day. A lot of people were getting over 4GHz.
I lost that particular silicon lottery. My QX9650 would "only" go up to 3.8ghz back in the day. I still have it. Rock solid chip. To get such a percentage overclock these days is impossible. Out of the box, they push them to the limit now (even beyond the limit in the case of Intel, causing CPUs to die).
Love the Q9650. Apparently one of the best overclockers back in the day. A lot of people were getting over 4GHz.
I lost that particular silicon lottery. My QX9650 would "only" go up to 3.8ghz back in the day. I still have it. Rock solid chip. To get such a percentage overclock these days is impossible. Out of the box, they push them to the limit now (even beyond the limit in the case of Intel, causing CPUs to die).
I managed to grab the best overclocking 775 board with the best overclocking memory so will give it a crack and see if I get lucky with a Q9650.
What’s interesting is I think this is the last Vortex 2 chipset revision that was made. This revision (B0) had internal data bus timing changes which provided slightly more FPS in some games. I think the SQ2500 uses the same chip. All other Montego II’s I’ve seen have Rev A2. I’m not a Vortex specialist so correct me if I’m wrong 😉
Funny you got a Vortex 2, and a nice wave table board too! I have the SQ2500 which I will be installing together with this Audigy 2 ZS. I guess I'll create two hardware profiles, each to disable one of the cards. Not period correct, but I have A3D 1.0 / 2.0 and EAX 1 .0 to 4.0 in one box.
At the same time I was negotiating on eBay for a K6-2+ but at the last minute the seller decided to increase the price by 15% without explanation. I am not going to entertain that type of behavior so I pulled out.
I've found another dealer for the same CPU, a bit farer but it's even cheaper.
Last edited by mtest001 on 2024-11-08, 21:14. Edited 1 time in total.
/me love my P200MMX@225 Mhz + Voodoo Banshee + SB Live! + Sound Canvas SC-55ST = unlimited joy !
What’s interesting is I think this is the last Vortex 2 chipset revision that was made. This revision (B0) had internal data bus timing changes which provided slightly more FPS in some games. I think the SQ2500 uses the same chip. All other Montego II’s I’ve seen have Rev A2. I’m not a Vortex specialist so correct me if I’m wrong 😉
You are correct. The SQ2500 normally has either an A2 or B0, but finding a B0 on any other Vortex2 is extremely rare in my experience. In fact, I don't think I've ever seen a B0 on anything but an SQ2500 (or it's clones), honestly. In pictures or in person.
That is quite a find... to be able to combine it with the HOMAC daughterboard is super cool too. Take care of those! 😁
