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Reply 120 of 159, by 386SX

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Jo22 wrote on 2024-11-11, 16:40:
To me it's either the hardware that the developers had used at the time or the target platform they had been developing for. […]
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386SX wrote on 2024-11-11, 12:19:

Period correct for PC gaming to me means a config that was supposed to exist and run the same period correct software so it's not really necessary to have a single month/year period release of each component but more a config that in a certain range would have sense to exist in those couple years. At the end like a late Am386DX-40 config with 1995 hardware.

To me it's either the hardware that the developers had used at the time or the target platform they had been developing for.

The latter is the cross-compile concept.
You have a higher-end system you develop your applications with.

Just like how DOS 2.x had been developed on a DEC system or how MS Windows 1.x had been developed on a more powerful Tandy 2000 (featured 80186, 640x400 8c graphics).

What I also think is a must-have is a CRT monitor or a simulation of it.
Otherwise, the games look just horrible. LCD is not period-correct.
- Except for those vintage LCDs or gas plasma screens used in late 80s/early 90s.
(Or 15" LCD panels used in early flst screen monitors or NTSC flat screen TVs from early 2000s.)

Why? Because of their native resolution being fitting.
VGA was 640x480 pels which these 286/386/486 laptop screens had featured natively.
Ideal for Windows 3.0 using Standard VGA driver and typical DOS applications.
320x200 graphics were being displayed as 640x400, with small black borders on top and bottom.

The aspect ratio maybe wasn't correct for 320x200 because of square pixels vs non-square pixels, but the scaling was integer without interpolation, at least.
Games using ModeX in 320x240 looked fine, also.
By comparion, modern LCDs always must scale/interpolate pixels on a typical DOS system.
Except if Windows has a driver for matching resolution.

Edit: You could also say that "period-correct" is what's listed on the game box. 😉
If a game says "386 or higher" a slightly newer or older generation might be still within period-correctness.
Say a 286 at 20 MHz (if game is still 16-Bit) or a modest 486DX with sufficient cache and RAM.
Let's remember, the recommended requirements are not seldomly the true minimum requirements. So there's always a bit of tolerance.

Edit: Last but not least, there's another factor that's often being forgotten.
Trends, pop culture and fashion aren’t around same time across the world.
Some countries do lag behind a few years, sometimes.

Here in my place, fashion and films was about 2 years behind when it comes to stuff from over the big pond. Music excepted, maybe, because radio was international (shortwave).

I mean, let's look at eastern Europe of the 90s.
They had just started in ca. 1995 to adopt western 80s fashion and music.
Their computers at home were older models, from what I read some countries just had started to try to build 286 PCs in 1992.
In such places, period-correctness was different altogether.

In China, for example, they had home computers based on the japanese Famicom platform. With keyboard, mouse and 1,44 MB floppy drive.
The company Sobor had created them. The OS was SB-DOS, an MS-DOS 6.2 look a like that ran on 6502.
And these computers weren't cheap to ordinary citizens, still.

I suppose it also depend on the game and the memories we have running it. Similar things about audio accuracy through old cheap PC speakers or internal speakers. I remember the mentioned Stunts (1990) I played infinite times on a friend's Compaq Presario 433. The game running on it is basically my "period-correct" version of how it's supposed to appear. For many many years I didn't even want to play it with Sound Blaster options for example because I only accepted THAT specific or similar PC speaker sound that computer had and it wasn't even easy to simulate because that computer had a specific PC speaker sound inside that case. At some point I could even tell the smell that computer make when its plastic heated from the hardware running in such compact space and that even added some "accuracy" to the gameplay considering we were running that game for entire days in epic competitions.
Sometimes even period correct highest end hardware supposed to run a specific title doesn't feel really right. A Pentium 200 running the original Doom is maybe a bit late and too fast even if frame rate would only benefit from it.

Last edited by 386SX on 2024-11-11, 22:38. Edited 1 time in total.

Reply 121 of 159, by andre_6

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leileilol wrote on 2024-11-10, 14:00:
winuser3162 wrote on 2024-11-10, 13:38:

i hate emulation i think its so stupid. completely ruins the experience. i dont care that you are too lazy/too broke to experience the game on original and intended hardware. in my opinion and this is only an opinion, games should only be enjoyed on period correct hardware.

as an owner of much "original and intended" hardware, having completed period games on period hardware during their "original and intended" periods, and a past contributor to two emulators, involving my prior experience of those periods to have them emulate better....

fuck this hobbyist gatekeeping shit.

To write stuff like that and then say it's only an opinion in the next sentence already says a lot, but to later edit that original post just to erase it completely really seals the deal. I shouldn't need to quote leileilol to refer to what you wrote. And you even removed a build from your signature as you said?...

I guess some kid that just wants to try "that old game" his uncle mentioned several times should just ask his Mom to drive him to the nearest CompUSA in the family's 1992 Ford Taurus to pick up the big box copy, so he can come home to his 486 PC and install the game with his brand spanking new floppy disks while he reads the manual/flyer instructions. Maybe even try to finesse Mom to get a McD.L.T. on the way home.

You do realize that VOGONS stands for Very Old Games On New Systems? What do you suppose that entails?

You won't find kinship of any kind about gatekeeping here. From time to time some "gatekeeping" or "dick measuring" inclined stuff comes to the fore in some users' posts, more or less thinly veiled, but always with the same root causes and issues that were already vastly discussed around here. I really regret not saving a particular post from a user not that long ago, distilling this overcompensation aspect. Two or three eloquent and succint sentences, so brutally truthful and impactful that he only had one reply from someone who told him that he shouldn't expect any further replies, for what he said was the pure harsh truth.

I seem to remember someone having a spare CT4810, and wanted to use it in a Win7 build. Face value, it may seem ridiculous, which of course I'm sure that's what everyone told him, but after they did that they helped him. Because that's what he asked for. And that's what this forum does and why many people looking for help and knowledge end up here. Like me. And I guarantee that as someone already said most people around here don't even play games or use their hardware that much anymore, taking their pleasure in fixing stuff, configuring, testing, benchmarking, as well as checking the threads, helping others with their issues and finding a solution, which seems to me the most popular game around here that no one talks about. God knows how many hardware or software issues this forum has solved.

The holy hardware you mentioned is pure and simply old and obsolete stuff, and will end up in landfill some day, like all hardware. All we're doing is delaying that outcome for a little while longer, purely for our enjoyment. This is a simple hobby. You can give it your all in keeping everything alive and going, riding in your "period correct"/"authenticity" high horses (which are as much mirages as they are misconceptions), I guarantee that some day you'll be forced to care more about maintaing your most precious hardware (you) in good shape than any of this stuff. You'll also probably even lose interest in gaming anyway as you age, like a lot of people. Be careful with high horses, even the elite ones most beautifully groomed and cared for can take a dump at the worst of times. See this Summer's Olympics.

...But I guess at least you led me down a "discontinued items from McDonald's" rabbit hole, so thanks for that.

Reply 122 of 159, by Jo22

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386SX wrote on 2024-11-11, 21:21:
Jo22 wrote on 2024-11-11, 16:40:
To me it's either the hardware that the developers had used at the time or the target platform they had been developing for. […]
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386SX wrote on 2024-11-11, 12:19:

Period correct for PC gaming to me means a config that was supposed to exist and run the same period correct software so it's not really necessary to have a single month/year period release of each component but more a config that in a certain range would have sense to exist in those couple years. At the end like a late Am386DX-40 config with 1995 hardware.

To me it's either the hardware that the developers had used at the time or the target platform they had been developing for.

The latter is the cross-compile concept.
You have a higher-end system you develop your applications with.

Just like how DOS 2.x had been developed on a DEC system or how MS Windows 1.x had been developed on a more powerful Tandy 2000 (featured 80186, 640x400 8c graphics).

What I also think is a must-have is a CRT monitor or a simulation of it.
Otherwise, the games look just horrible. LCD is not period-correct.
- Except for those vintage LCDs or gas plasma screens used in late 80s/early 90s.
(Or 15" LCD panels used in early flst screen monitors or NTSC flat screen TVs from early 2000s.)

Why? Because of their native resolution being fitting.
VGA was 640x480 pels which these 286/386/486 laptop screens had featured natively.
Ideal for Windows 3.0 using Standard VGA driver and typical DOS applications.
320x200 graphics were being displayed as 640x400, with small black borders on top and bottom.

The aspect ratio maybe wasn't correct for 320x200 because of square pixels vs non-square pixels, but the scaling was integer without interpolation, at least.
Games using ModeX in 320x240 looked fine, also.
By comparion, modern LCDs always must scale/interpolate pixels on a typical DOS system.
Except if Windows has a driver for matching resolution.

Edit: You could also say that "period-correct" is what's listed on the game box. 😉
If a game says "386 or higher" a slightly newer or older generation might be still within period-correctness.
Say a 286 at 20 MHz (if game is still 16-Bit) or a modest 486DX with sufficient cache and RAM.
Let's remember, the recommended requirements are not seldomly the true minimum requirements. So there's always a bit of tolerance.

Edit: Last but not least, there's another factor that's often being forgotten.
Trends, pop culture and fashion aren’t around same time across the world.
Some countries do lag behind a few years, sometimes.

Here in my place, fashion and films was about 2 years behind when it comes to stuff from over the big pond. Music excepted, maybe, because radio was international (shortwave).

I mean, let's look at eastern Europe of the 90s.
They had just started in ca. 1995 to adopt western 80s fashion and music.
Their computers at home were older models, from what I read some countries just had started to try to build 286 PCs in 1992.
In such places, period-correctness was different altogether.

In China, for example, they had home computers based on the japanese Famicom platform. With keyboard, mouse and 1,44 MB floppy drive.
The company Sobor had created them. The OS was SB-DOS, an MS-DOS 6.2 look a like that ran on 6502.
And these computers weren't cheap to ordinary citizens, still.

I suppose it also depend on the game and the memories we have running it. Similar things about audio accuracy through old cheap PC speakers or internal speakers. I remember the mentioned Stunts (1990) I played infinite times on a friend's Compaq Presario 433. The game running on it is basically my "period-correct" version of how it's supposed to appear. For many many years I didn't even want to play it with Sound Blaster options for example because I only accepted THAT specific or similar PC speaker sound that computer had and it wasn't even easy to simulate because that computer had a specific PC speaker sound inside that case. At some point I could even tell the smell that computer make when its plastic was heated and that even added "accuracy" to a possible gameplay considering we were running that game for entire days in epic competitions.
Sometimes even period correct highest end hardware supposed to run a specific title doesn't feel really right. A Pentium 200 running the original Doom is maybe a bit late and too fast even if frame rate would only benefit from it.

Well, I'm not sure what to say. 🤷‍♂️ Thanks for sharing your memories, I guess. 🙂👍

What comes to mind right now is this..

Back in the 90s, I had a 286-12 with a Pro AudioSpectrum 16, an SCSI CD-ROM drive, a Mustek handy scanner, Super VGA card (on-board) and 4 MB of RAM.

(In addition to it an 13" orv14" IBM PS/2 VGA colour monitor from 1987 and a HP LaserJet Plus. Creatix beige modem..)

Software was MS-DOS 6.20 and Windows 3.10, PC-Tools, QuickBasic, VB 1.0 etc.

If I'd tell people these specs, they probably would tell me that this isn't "period correct" and that it's a nonsense configuration. That it doesn’t suit a 286, in short.

In their opinion, a typical 286 PC has 1 MB of memory, has EGA graphics and an AdLib card at best. And runs PC-DOS 3.30. Or something along these lines.

And maybe they're right, even. I don’t know. 🤷‍♂️
But despite this, it's never the less a configuration I simply had sitting on my desk in early-mid 90s, period-correctness or not.

That's the other extreme, I suppose. An technically outdated computer equipped with modern features.

Like an PC/XT with an CD-ROM drive.
(Unusual, but did exist in the 80s; the CD drive was an external unit connected via IF card).

Edit: Here's the Genius mouse I used back then. It was a popular cheap model of the 90s.:
Re: Period correct mouse for 486
Here's my old 286-12 (lower photo), in ca. 1999.:
Re: The year is 1990 and you still have a PC/XT and can't upgrade. Which games are you playing?

Edit: The problem that at least I often do struggle with are definitions.
If someone asks about "period-correctness" then I feel like I must give a precise answer.

Something rational, something absolute, backed up by sources/references. Like in math class.
Because in math, you can't say "in my opinion" or "I believe it's roughly [..]"
An estimation isn't good enough as an answer. It has to be precise.

And that's something that inadvertedly will result in arguments, sadly. 😟
Because people had setups that didn't match the "period-correct" definition.
Which is okay, of course. It's just not fitting the definitions in the stricter sense.

If they had asked me about "common configurations" or "suitable configuration" instead, then the argument wouldn't have happened in first place.

Because "common configurations" in the 90s were very broad indeed, varying from the official requirements of a certain game.

In case of Doom, users had various computers throughout the years, from 386 to Pentium MMX or Pentium II.

So in short, they played the game on hardware not foreseen by the developers at the time of release.
And that's okay. It's just not "period-correct" by definition anymore.

Edit: That being said, I still think that a CRT is important for low-res games.
Not because of nostalgia, but because it acts like a visual filter.
Similar to how early DOS games had been silently assumed that Sound Blaster cards have an integrated low-pass filter that cuts off the harmonics.

"Time, it seems, doesn't flow. For some it's fast, for some it's slow.
In what to one race is no time at all, another race can rise and fall..." - The Minstrel

//My video channel//

Reply 123 of 159, by leileilol

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andre_6 wrote on 2024-11-11, 22:12:

To write stuff like that and then say it's only an opinion in the next sentence already says a lot, but to later edit that original post just to erase it completely really seals the deal. I shouldn't need to quote leileilol to refer to what you wrote. And you even removed a build from your signature as you said?...

There was originally a "gatekeeping is important" response after mine too.

apsosig.png
long live PCem

Reply 124 of 159, by darry

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Maybe I'm naive, but I did not feel triggered by that opinion about period correctness.

Granted, the way it was expressed was somewhat confrontational, but I saw that more as the expression of strongly held personal preference that came off as abrasive rather than an attempt at gatekeeping (unless I missed something or something got edited before I got to read it).

I was (and am) more of an (arguable) "hotrodder". In regards to retro computing, I don't see ideological absolutes, barriers (or gates), but stretchable possibilities and physical and practical limits, all of this being governed by preferences that do not necessarily need to be rational.

I do try to be mindful of how I express things because I strongly believe that my preferences are worth no more or less than anyone else's.

Reply 125 of 159, by darry

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Jo22 wrote on 2024-11-11, 09:15:
Hah. I find this question to be really clever, because it's a paradoxon sort of. Doom had been played on your typical ~486 PC of […]
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darry wrote on 2024-11-11, 04:49:
You do you. I respect that . […]
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winuser3162 wrote on 2024-11-10, 13:38:

i hate emulation i think its so stupid. completely ruins the experience. i dont care that you are too lazy/too broke to experience the game on original and intended hardware. in my opinion and this is only an opinion, games should only be enjoyed on period correct hardware.

You do you. I respect that .

Here is my opinion on the subject, quoted from two threads (MODs, I have done this previously and was not reprimanded, I hope that it is still OK)

darry wrote on 2020-07-01, 12:20:
Period correctness is a concept that came about after the fact when people wanted to have a machine be representative of a certa […]
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Period correctness is a concept that came about after the fact when people wanted to have a machine be representative of a certain time period .

In real life, except when buying a complete new machine, hardly anything ever was or stayed "period correct". People often re-used older monitors and peripherals when upgrading to a new machine . Even after buying a completely new machine they often upgraded parts like RAM, video cards CPUs, etc over the months/years . Additionally, at the time of a game's launch, the hardware available did not necessarily allow the said game to run at it's full potential; using later hardware could be beneficial .

Period correctness is a concept that is nice if all you want is a machine that is a snapshot of a given moment in time, museum style .

In practice, if you actually want to run software/games that span a few years, the approach is sub-optimal, unless you actually can manage to have a period correct machine for each year of the time span that you are addressing. IMHO, a much better and practical approach, from a usability point of view, is to base your hardware build decisions on the software you want to run and choose your components so that they allow comfortably running the more demanding/newer applications/games that you have in mind while still working properly with less demanding/older ones . Obviously, you can't cover all time in one build, but planning that build based on what it is able to do, rather than a specific year, makes more practical sense, IMHO .

darry wrote on 2021-03-11, 17:27:
IMHO, the primary point of having any computer, old or new, is using it to run software . Emulation is not perfect, though gett […]
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IMHO, the primary point of having any computer, old or new, is using it to run software .
Emulation is not perfect, though getting closer all the time . FPGA re-implementation is another approach that will help bring us even closer.
If there ever comes a time when objectively perfect (indistinguishable from the real thing) re-creations of software/hardware environments can be experienced in a "Matrix"-like virtual reality environment, I believe that owning actual retro hardware will lose a lot of its appeal, except to die-hard collectors .

In the mean time, we have real physical old hardware to enjoy when possible and emulation/FPGA to augment/complement and sometimes replace it, depending on one's tolerance to emulation's current limits .
I also agree that playing with old hardware is a lot of the fun, but it still does not need to be period correct .

At the end of the day, if I play Doom 1 on my "period incorrect" Pentium 3 1400 and a real Sound Canvas or Gravis Ultrasound and/or Orpheus and/or AWE64 off of an SSD , is my retro experience any more or less valid than that of someone who scrupulously builds a setup where all parts are 1993 vintage because he wants to experience a "moment in time" ?

TLDR, IMHO :
- Period correctness is as important as you want it to be, if you even care at all. It can also be as loose or restrictive as you want to be , timeframe wise . It is an entirely subjective choice from a usage/enjoyment point of view .
- Real hardware can be used for period incorrect (hot-rodded) builds without resorting to emulation and still be part of the retro experience . The only limit is compatibility (part of the fun is stretching that) between older/newer software and hardware
- Emulation can be part of the retro experience and is a valid personal choice
- Period correctness to any degree, for any reason in a personal build, is a subjective personal choice, but the concept does matter for historical preservation and museum exhibits (depending on scope, purpose and practical constraints) which should strive to be as historically accurate as possible .

That being said, according to your take on "period correctness", since Doom came out in 1993, does the only "period correct" software/hardware to run it consist of what was available leading up to its launch day (December 10, 1993) ? If not, what is the acceptable cutoff point according to you and why ?

To be clear, I am not trying to mock you, disrespect you, or paint you into a corner. I just want to better understand what people consider to be "period correct" and why.

Hah. I find this question to be really clever, because it's a paradoxon sort of.
Doom had been played on your typical ~486 PC of the time with a VLB graphics card, maybe, but the development hardware was an Unix workstation.

So the original versions of Doom also had been run on high-end graphics workstations, too. From the very beginning. Even if it initially was by using a PC emulator such as Merge, merely.

But since official 1994 Unix versions exist, too, Doom had been run on on systems with a 1280x1024 256c video mode. CRTs were 17" to 20", likely.
In 1994, already, of course.

TBH, I wasn't going for that angle, but you do have a valid point.

I miss 1994, BTW.

To paraphrase a quote from my favorite SCI-FI movie,

"I long to feel young, as when the world was new. "

I guess that we all do, just in somewhat different ways .

Reply 126 of 159, by winuser3162

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andre_6 wrote on 2024-11-11, 22:12:
To write stuff like that and then say it's only an opinion in the next sentence already says a lot, but to later edit that origi […]
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leileilol wrote on 2024-11-10, 14:00:
winuser3162 wrote on 2024-11-10, 13:38:

i hate emulation i think its so stupid. completely ruins the experience. i dont care that you are too lazy/too broke to experience the game on original and intended hardware. in my opinion and this is only an opinion, games should only be enjoyed on period correct hardware.

as an owner of much "original and intended" hardware, having completed period games on period hardware during their "original and intended" periods, and a past contributor to two emulators, involving my prior experience of those periods to have them emulate better....

fuck this hobbyist gatekeeping shit.

To write stuff like that and then say it's only an opinion in the next sentence already says a lot, but to later edit that original post just to erase it completely really seals the deal. I shouldn't need to quote leileilol to refer to what you wrote. And you even removed a build from your signature as you said?...

I guess some kid that just wants to try "that old game" his uncle mentioned several times should just ask his Mom to drive him to the nearest CompUSA in the family's 1992 Ford Taurus to pick up the big box copy, so he can come home to his 486 PC and install the game with his brand spanking new floppy disks while he reads the manual/flyer instructions. Maybe even try to finesse Mom to get a McD.L.T. on the way home.

You do realize that VOGONS stands for Very Old Games On New Systems? What do you suppose that entails?

You won't find kinship of any kind about gatekeeping here. From time to time some "gatekeeping" or "dick measuring" inclined stuff comes to the fore in some users' posts, more or less thinly veiled, but always with the same root causes and issues that were already vastly discussed around here. I really regret not saving a particular post from a user not that long ago, distilling this overcompensation aspect. Two or three eloquent and succint sentences, so brutally truthful and impactful that he only had one reply from someone who told him that he shouldn't expect any further replies, for what he said was the pure harsh truth.

I seem to remember someone having a spare CT4810, and wanted to use it in a Win7 build. Face value, it may seem ridiculous, which of course I'm sure that's what everyone told him, but after they did that they helped him. Because that's what he asked for. And that's what this forum does and why many people looking for help and knowledge end up here. Like me. And I guarantee that as someone already said most people around here don't even play games or use their hardware that much anymore, taking their pleasure in fixing stuff, configuring, testing, benchmarking, as well as checking the threads, helping others with their issues and finding a solution, which seems to me the most popular game around here that no one talks about. God knows how many hardware or software issues this forum has solved.

The holy hardware you mentioned is pure and simply old and obsolete stuff, and will end up in landfill some day, like all hardware. All we're doing is delaying that outcome for a little while longer, purely for our enjoyment. This is a simple hobby. You can give it your all in keeping everything alive and going, riding in your "period correct"/"authenticity" high horses (which are as much mirages as they are misconceptions), I guarantee that some day you'll be forced to care more about maintaing your most precious hardware (you) in good shape than any of this stuff. You'll also probably even lose interest in gaming anyway as you age, like a lot of people. Be careful with high horses, even the elite ones most beautifully groomed and cared for can take a dump at the worst of times. See this Summer's Olympics.

...But I guess at least you led me down a "discontinued items from McDonald's" rabbit hole, so thanks for that.

I’d rather use my hardware and have as much fun with it as possible even if it means it’s going to die faster rather than just sitting in it to preserve it. I’m aware that nothing last forever. I’ve had many pieces of hardware die on me in the past as I’m sure we all have.

Also about me removing one of my builds from my signature (I still haven’t done that) while being clowned on for running 2 8800 GTX’s in SLI it reminded me that the build the commenter was referring to is not even intact anymore due to the as mentioned blown caps on the motherboard I was using for said build. Me removing the build has nothing to do with the fact they thought it was a dumb build which in all honesty, running 2 18 year old cards in SLI with a custom water loop is dumb, but doesn’t that make everything else we collect, build and love, all the software we emulate and run on our hardware dumb too?

1:intel Core 2 Extreme QX 6700, 2X GeForce 8800GTX SLI, SB Audigy 2ZS, XFX 780i SLI, 4GB Corsair XMS DDR2, Custom Waterloop
2:intel Pentium MMX 166, ATI Rage 3D, SoundBlaster16, Diamond Monstor 3D, 60MB Ram, Asus P/1-P55T2P4, Win NT 4.0/Windows 95 pLuS!

Reply 127 of 159, by gaffa2002

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In general, I do believe interest in retro PC hardware (and retro gaming in general) is starting to decrease, for some reasons IMHO:

- PC hardware became more standardized throughout the years. The "experience" of using a PC from 10 years ago is not much different than the experience we have now (hardware wise at least). Far different than the time when DOS/9x/NT platforms co-existed, not to mention the paradigm changes in gaming (from 2D software rendered to 3D hardware rendered, with multiple graphical APIs co-existing, not to mention audio which ranged from computer bleeps, to very specific music generation devices each with it's specific sound and minimal use of digital audio samples to fully using digital audio). And thats for PCs alone... there were consoles and other home computers each having its own specific architecture. Nowadays both PCs and consoles share a very similar architecture, the difference is more on the presentation and software.

-We are getting older and our priorities change, so the time investment in the hobby is reduced. We also tend to have an increasingly more realistic view of things rather than thinking that the past was magical and everything was perfect back then. The nostalgic feeling starts to wear off after many years exposed to the past IMO.

-Old hardware will eventually break, and availability is always decreasing while interest on retro gaming exploded and became mainstream. That made prices for anything retro gaming related to skyrocket. Even if we (usually) get more disposable income as we get older, is more a matter of thinking such hardware is not worth the asked price and expending the money with something else.

Maybe retro gaming, specially the hardware collecting part, may be niche again someday, but I'm not sure most of us will be alive to see it 😁

LO-RES, HI-FUN

My DOS/ Win98 PC specs

EP-7KXA Motherboard
Athlon Thunderbird 750mhz
256Mb PC100 RAM
Geforce 4 MX440 64MB AGP (128 bit)
Sound Blaster AWE 64 CT4500 (ISA)
32GB HDD

Reply 128 of 159, by Hoping

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Part of the reason why I put aside all the pre-2006 hardware is that I have the impression that collectors, who are only interested in money and speculation, have increased.
I have all that hardware in safekeeping and I will never sell it, so as not to give joy to any speculators.
That is the sentimental part.
The logical part is that a motherboard from six years ago costs me the same as a motherboard from the nineties, and of course, a motherboard from six years ago is much more useful to me.
And of course, a six-year-old graphics card is much more useful to me than a 3dfx that is only special because of the GLide API that lost the game to DirectX and OpenGL.
I can play a lot more games with an RX580 or a GTX 1060 than with a Voodoo 1, and they are much cheaper than a Voodoo 1.
Those are my main reasons for having lost a lot of the interest I had in older hardware.

Reply 129 of 159, by ratfink

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winuser3162 wrote on 2024-11-12, 08:32:

Me removing the build has nothing to do with the fact they thought it was a dumb build which in all honesty, running 2 18 year old cards in SLI with a custom water loop is dumb, but doesn’t that make everything else we collect, build and love, all the software we emulate and run on our hardware dumb too?

We should do what we have fun with, rather than getting sucked into the hype spouted by others. Navigating other people's advice is one of the important skills in life. For some of us anyway.

Reply 130 of 159, by UCyborg

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andre_6 wrote on 2024-11-11, 22:12:

This is a simple hobby. You can give it your all in keeping everything alive and going, riding in your "period correct"/"authenticity" high horses (which are as much mirages as they are misconceptions), I guarantee that some day you'll be forced to care more about maintaing your most precious hardware (you) in good shape than any of this stuff. You'll also probably even lose interest in gaming anyway as you age, like a lot of people. Be careful with high horses, even the elite ones most beautifully groomed and cared for can take a dump at the worst of times. See this Summer's Olympics.

For real.

Arthur Schopenhauer wrote:

A man can be himself only so long as he is alone; and if he does not love solitude, he will not love freedom; for it is only when he is alone that he is really free.

Reply 131 of 159, by Skorbin

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I tend to build unusual stuff, just to see what is/was actually possibly with old hardware.
This leads to sometime "not-period correct" builds, but hey, even my old builds were a mixture of old and new components. I didn't have the money to build full computers from scratch.
So now I have some crazy builds, which might not even have existed in the past, but they are fun!
Like having a pc with an AMD K6 III-400 and two Diamond FireGL 4000, running under Windows NT at 2560 x 1024 at 32 bits and now installing workstation software (AutoCad, Cinema 4D, etc.).

So for me retro is not dying but rather going less obvious routes where not all the scalpers are already.
If the components I would like to have are getting to expensive, I just look for different facets of the retro computing stuff. There are so many of them, just look beside the mainstream.

Reply 132 of 159, by dormcat

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Wow, this thread sure got heated when I was away with other matters. 😅

majinga wrote on 2024-11-11, 18:14:
Let's make a real example, let say my first PC was a 386. And I kept it for long time, because, computer where a lot expensive. […]
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Let's make a real example, let say my first PC was a 386. And I kept it for long time, because, computer where a lot expensive.
Then a lot of years later I got my second computer, a Pentium.
Now, let's say I had a game that I want to play. I got it in a local store, it was there, it seems nice, and I got it.
The box say recommended CPU 486DX.
Now, I don't have a 486, I only have my old 386 which is too slow, don't fit the minimum requirements.
Or my new PC the pentium, which is even too fast, an not "period correct" for the game. But I can use it and it will run the game very well.

Those specs fit my experiences back then perfectly: I had a 386DX-20 that could run most of my games but was sluggish in Doom and clones FPS or flight sims. Five years later I got a Pentium 120 (still alive today) that surpassed their system requirements but I could finally enjoy those games smoothly.

Years later, when Quake III Arena was released in December 1999, my P2-400 exceeded its minimal system requirements but I didn't play it until its demo version came with my new Athlon XP 2200+ in 2003. Still playing it on my C2D WinXP rig today with 1600 x 1200 resolution; didn't know that doing so would be considered "inappropriate." 🙄

Reply 133 of 159, by Jo22

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Edit:

clb wrote on 2024-11-11, 21:12:
majinga wrote on 2024-11-11, 18:36:

So, if this was ok back then, why is wrong now?

I like to think that majority of these kinds of "period correct" comments that come off as gatekeeping when read by others, are largely just due to accidentally worded comments that poorly articulate or express people's own preferences, making the comments come off as judgemental, rather than perceptional.

That is, when someone wants to express their enthusiasm for "I really like to retro on a CRT, since they are so awesome", they might write that sentiment as "CRTs are the only way to play retro games" or "I can't understand people who retro on an LCD". Not that they'd necessarily explicitly want to gatekeep, but the wording can get written in a judgemental way, without much attention to the phrasing.

+1

clb wrote on 2024-11-11, 21:12:

Of course everyone can retro the way they themselves like, be it CRT or LCD, floppies or goteks, or real HW vs emulation.. none of it is wrong.

I'm with you, except for the CRT. Using an LCD monitor would be perfectly fine, *if* an external CRT simulator had been attached between vintage PC and LCD monitor.

Say, a Raspberry Pi with a hat for an input for the signals coming from the VESA feature connector of a VGA card.

Something like this, I think.
CRT Terminator Digital VGA Feature Card ISA DV1000

Only then, the -more or less- original experience would be retained.
It's not meant as a judgment or a personal preference, but just a rational conclusion. It's not my fault that is how it is. 🙁

(Just compare PC-88 graphics with and without CRT filtering. It's an eye opener for the power of CRT, I think.)

It's akin to how, say, the Amiga's Paul chip needs filtering in order to sound right.
Emulators without that filtering emulated will sound imperfect compared to real hardware.

Or let's take Sound Blaster clones.. They rarely have the correct balance of FM volume and DAC volume.
Games like GODS may depend on this little detail, though.

Edit: I must also add that CRT doesn’t equal CRT.
If you had a Voodo0 (2) card in the 90s and you were used to playing 640x480 or 800x600 games on an 17" CRT then an LCD makes little difference.
Because high-resolution CRTs from the mid/late 90s had a smalldot pitch, anyway. These CRTs were almost LCD-grade, thus.

However, if we enter lo-res graphics world of 320x200 or 320x240, then a "blurry" CRT with a big dot pitch makes a big difference.
It will filter out the pixelation of the raw image and produce extra colours (gradients, transparencies etc).
It'll work like a natural anti-aliasing, in simple words.

So period correctness isn't easy here. Getting a random CRT, isn't enough.
It also has to be an vintage CRT that fits the specs of the time.

That's a common mistake people make, I think.
They're getting a random CRT for their 486 and call it a day.

But that's not the whole story, because as already mentioned modern CRTs are very hi-res and clean, near to LCD in terms of clarity and sharpness.

They can be used, of course, but they're not representing the same experience of late 80s/early 90s.

That's when we had used 14" "fixed-frequency" monitors for VGA/MCGA.
The initial focus was on colours and 320x200 graphics, to progress from the limits of EGA. And on VGA text-mode.
It was when Windows 3 and GUIs like GEM/ViewMax/Geoworks were out that 640x480 resolution of Standard VGA got more into the focus among home users and monitor makers, until 800x600 and up followed in mid-90s.

And that's maybe also the reason they (people) don't see the point.
Because after all, their modern CRT doesn’t look much different to an LCD in their eyes.

And if you never experienced the "real thing", well, then you don't see a difference.
Internet is no big help either, because Mobygames.com has raw images only. And in case of Hercules graphics, not even with aspect correction! 😞

Edit: Speaking of aspect correction.. CRTs can handle non-square pixels natively, even the CAD grade monitors.
An LCD monitor will display the raw image without taking care of "tall pixels".
That's another issue of using LCDs, though some LCDs can cover up this issue by stretching everything to full screen, to 4:3!
Well, provided that the user has an 4:3 LCD monitor in use.
Judging by the many Youtube videos showing 16:9 monitors, not even this is take care of anymore. 😢

Edit: To give an idea, playing Frederik Pohl's Gateway in SVGA @800x600 pels (ET 4000 required) can look quite nice on an 20" LCD monitor!
Especially if the monitor has 1600x1200 pels native resolution.
Playing Day of The Tentacle @320x200 pels (DOTT) on same screen does not. A 14" portable CRT TV via S-Video connection suits it much better (I do mention S-Video also because many PCI/AGP cards had a port for it).

Skorbin wrote on 2024-11-12, 23:30:
I tend to build unusual stuff, just to see what is/was actually possibly with old hardware. This leads to sometime "not-period c […]
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I tend to build unusual stuff, just to see what is/was actually possibly with old hardware.
This leads to sometime "not-period correct" builds, but hey, even my old builds were a mixture of old and new components. I didn't have the money to build full computers from scratch.
So now I have some crazy builds, which might not even have existed in the past, but they are fun!
Like having a pc with an AMD K6 III-400 and two Diamond FireGL 4000, running under Windows NT at 2560 x 1024 at 32 bits and now installing workstation software (AutoCad, Cinema 4D, etc.).

So for me retro is not dying but rather going less obvious routes where not all the scalpers are already.
If the components I would like to have are getting to expensive, I just look for different facets of the retro computing stuff. There are so many of them, just look beside the mainstream.

Which exactly mirrors the reality of the mid 90s, by the way! 😃
When the multimedia trend was at its height, a lot of upgrade kits had been sold.
Mostly CD-ROM+sound card kits, from what I remember. Because of Video CD, MPEG, Photo CD and multimedia lexi.. encyclopedia (MS Encarta etc).
The upgrade trend was happening in both directions, also.

There were users who upgraded existing, older vintage PCs with modems and new drives,
as well as users who pretty much had left everything as is, but just replaced motherboard or processor (486DLC, 5x86, Pentium Overdrive etc). Or installed extra RAM.

A lot of Frankenstein type of computers had been built in the 90s, thus.
Pentium (II) PCs with a big tower and 1,2MB 5,25" floppy drives were a reality.
It was a wild time. You started with a 25 MHz 386 PC and WfW 3.11 and suddenly you had a 90 MHz Pentium board in your PC case, with no software re-installation and some (if not all) old drives and expansion cards left in place.

Edited.

Edit: And that's what makes me wonder:
Depending on how we look at it, wasn't it also kind of being "period correct" for the 90s for their users being "non-period correct" when they assembled PCs ? 😉

Edit:

Skorbin wrote on 2024-11-12, 23:30:
I tend to build unusual stuff, just to see what is/was actually possibly with old hardware. This leads to sometime "not-period c […]
Show full quote

I tend to build unusual stuff, just to see what is/was actually possibly with old hardware.
This leads to sometime "not-period correct" builds, but hey, even my old builds were a mixture of old and new components. I didn't have the money to build full computers from scratch.
So now I have some crazy builds, which might not even have existed in the past, but they are fun!
Like having a pc with an AMD K6 III-400 and two Diamond FireGL 4000, running under Windows NT at 2560 x 1024 at 32 bits and now installing workstation software (AutoCad, Cinema 4D, etc.).

That reminds me of that LGR epiosede with the PC/XT clone in a modern gaming case! 😃

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pwzHurzTNTY

The peripherals aren’t exactly period correct, either, btw.

Rounded serial mice looking like this did exist in the 80s, but most people had the boxy, Amiga style models on XTs in the 80s.
Like the Genius GM-6 or similar.

The VGA monitor is a tad bit too new, too. It looks like 1993/1994 to me.

The keyboard is fine, though. It was used on ATs and XTs a like.
Later XT BIOSes even got support for 101 key extended keyboards.

Last edited by Jo22 on 2024-11-13, 08:04. Edited 1 time in total.

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In what to one race is no time at all, another race can rise and fall..." - The Minstrel

//My video channel//

Reply 134 of 159, by Ryccardo

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Jo22 wrote on 2024-11-13, 05:24:

Depending on how we look at it, wasn't it also kind of being "period correct" for the 90s for their users being "non-period correct" when they assembled PCs ? 😉

Yep, the desktop if not full tower PC has always been about modularity, if anything it's been more common in this millennium, between Certain Brands gratuitously changing CPU sockets and many name-brand PCs, even full size desktops, being thrown away as when they left the factory - if they have reasonable expansion options at all, of course…

But you can find counterexamples at any time even in non-handmade PCs:
1981 (CGA monitor not invented yet)
Late 80s ("mass market" XTs and ATs with integrated PS/2, VGA, F/HDC, etc)
2010s (commercial refurbs on the major ecommerce sites)
C0vid age (name brand graphics cards with old, or at least DDR5 remake, GPUs - I've bought such a GT710 for a competitive price and, excluding of course drivers, seems to work fine)

Reply 135 of 159, by majinga

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Jo22 wrote on 2024-11-13, 05:24:
... I'm with you, except for the CRT. Using an LCD monitor would be perfectly fine, *if* an external CRT simulator had been atta […]
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...
I'm with you, except for the CRT. Using an LCD monitor would be perfectly fine, *if* an external CRT simulator had been attached between vintage PC and LCD monitor.

Say, a Raspberry Pi with a hat for an input for the signals coming from the VESA feature connector of a VGA card.

Something like this, I think.
CRT Terminator Digital VGA Feature Card ISA DV1000

Only then, the -more or less- original experience would be retained.
It's not meant as a judgment or a personal preference, but just a rational conclusion. It's not my fault that is how it is. 🙁
...

About the CRT. For me no!

Use whatever you can or whatever you have. That's perfectly fine. You will lose none from your retro device.

If I could I would have put a huge trinitron on my 386 too. And I would have been very happy about it. My experience would not have been compromised at all.
Even better if I had direct access to a modern LCD, finally a monitor with a truly sharp image, without having to go crazy with adjustments and knobs, because no matter how crazy you went, the image was never perfectly straight.

With the external devices you mentioned is the same.
The point is not that they give you the "real experience", there are no such thing.
The point is you, that still want to get more from your system. Better video, better sound, you want to get out every pixel, every bit from it.
You want to see it as you always wanted.

And that's fine, that's absolutely fine. You should get this devices, because they make you feel better, not because without them you can't enjoy your retro stuff.

That's exactly the reason because this devices are made. Because many of us still have that nagging idea in our heads.
And now, we have the skills and the possibilities to do it. We are finally able to make it possible.
Now we can break the limit of our systems, give them more ram, more speed, better graphics, and so on.
Give them all we wanted when we was young. We still kids, that play with their old toys, and still want a new one to play with.

That's the reason why all the new devices, all the new software exists, and why they should exist.
Because that's the real way to enjoy that stuff.

Reply 136 of 159, by Jo22

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majinga wrote on 2024-11-13, 10:43:

Use whatever you can or whatever you have. That's perfectly fine. You will lose none from your retro device.

+1

majinga wrote on 2024-11-13, 10:43:
[..] Even better if I had direct access to a modern LCD, finally a monitor with a truly sharp image, without having to go crazy […]
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[..]
Even better if I had direct access to a modern LCD, finally a monitor with a truly sharp image, without having to go crazy with adjustments and knobs, because no matter how crazy you went, the image was never perfectly straight.

With the external devices you mentioned is the same.
The point is not that they give you the "real experience", there are no such thing.
The point is you, that still want to get more from your system. Better video, better sound, you want to get out every pixel, every bit from it.
You want to see it as you always wanted.

Well, yes and no. Not sure what to respond and if at all. 🤷‍♂️

I think it's a misconception that a bad monitor makes the image bad, as well.
- I'm not thinking about you, but in general.

It's rather that I share the opinion (or understanding) that the CRT has a filter function. That's why I started collecting images. It's not gatekeeping, though, LCD monitors are fine as such, too.
- In fact I'm often using emulators together with LCDs, but with CRT shaders that simulate CRTs.
For example, for Kega Fusion the NTSC filter by Blargg is quite okay, I think.

The filtering of a vintage CRT doesn’t make the picture totally blurred, also.
In the end, it it's rather contrary. It hides the image flaws and it will give the illusion that the resolution is higher than it actually is. It's like an interpolation effect, in the end.

The pixel patterns arranged by the artists will be smoothed out and provide additional details. The brain does the rest.
Some argue that a CRT will increase the perceived resolution by 4 times, even.

For low-resolution graphics on an equally low-res CRT monitor, mainly, I may add.

With the higher resolution graphics and monitors, the effect will be less noticeable, also because the information content reachs a sufficient level.

PS: Btw, that's maybe somehow related to the effect when you read a hardly recognizable text on paper or on TV.
If you increase distance (=less information), it becomes easier to the eye/brain to deciper things.
It's the result of another sor of de-pixelation, maybe, not sure. 🤷‍♂️

Edit: Here's a Youtube video about a very bad VGA monitor from late 80s/early 90s.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m79HxULt3O8
It's horrible for productivity software, but Monkey Island in 320x200 256c (MCGA) really shines on it.

majinga wrote on 2024-11-13, 10:43:

And that's fine, that's absolutely fine. You should get this devices, because they make you feel better, not because without them you can't enjoy your retro stuff.

Sure it's fine, each to his own. 🙂👍

My point merely was about authenticy, about what was, um, "normal" back then.

majinga wrote on 2024-11-13, 10:43:
That's exactly the reason because this devices are made. Because many of us still have that nagging idea in our heads. And now, […]
Show full quote

That's exactly the reason because this devices are made. Because many of us still have that nagging idea in our heads.
And now, we have the skills and the possibilities to do it. We are finally able to make it possible.
Now we can break the limit of our systems, give them more ram, more speed, better graphics, and so on.
Give them all we wanted when we was young. We still kids, that play with their old toys, and still want a new one to play with.

I agree on the RAM thing, at very least. 🙂
That's were I'm never trying to be period-correct.

Last edited by Jo22 on 2024-11-13, 12:19. Edited 1 time in total.

"Time, it seems, doesn't flow. For some it's fast, for some it's slow.
In what to one race is no time at all, another race can rise and fall..." - The Minstrel

//My video channel//

Reply 137 of 159, by majinga

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Well, there is an easy filter that anyone can activate on their LCD.

Move the chair back one step to get the 1x filter.

To get the 2x filter move another step away. And so on.
But at some point the filter became too strong, and you can get the perception of a reduced size screen.
It can even became less comfortable to use the input devices.

I'm joking of course. But It works, trust me 😀

Reply 138 of 159, by darry

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I recently briefly tried DOSBox staging and I have to admit that the default VGA filter/shader/scaler/ etc gives off a very convincing high quality CRT VGA monitor feeling to me on my 25" 1920x1200 LCD.

My first (S)VGA monitor at home had a 0.28mm dot pitch shadow mask CRT and was sharp to my eyes. It was a 14-inch monitor with a slightly curved screen (I had seen worse) and had no significant convergence, focus or geometry issues .

IMHO, the default simulated VGA CRT effect in DOSBox Staging, is very close to how I remember VGA games and other software on a reasonable quality (S)VGA monitor from the 90s. Would it stand up to a side by side comparison with the real thing ? Probably not. Might it actually feel subjectively preferable (at least to some people) to the real thing? I would argue that it actually might (and I'm not just talking about OSSC fan club members, like myself).

Reply 139 of 159, by Hoping

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Well, I have a 17 inch FD Trinitron and I haven't used it in years, it takes up a lot of space, and it hurts my eyes, nowadays, I find it hard to imagine how we put up with so many hours with CRTs at 60 Hz; 75 Hz if you had learned anything about refresh rate and 85 Hz if you were lucky enough to have a good monitor, if I remember correctly, the FD Trinitron supported 1024x768 at 85 Hz, which was not a bad resolution for the late nineties, in my opinion. There will be many things against LCDs, but I think they are quite better for our health, except for the blue light issue, which is not very good to say the least, I think.