VOGONS


Reply 100 of 132, by the3dfxdude

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VivienM wrote on 2024-12-07, 17:20:

The constraint being prices on hardware!

e.g. my family bought a 486 with 4MB of RAM in Jan. 1995. Upgraded to 8MB to be able to properly use Office 4.2 in April or so - cost, $250CAD. Upgraded to 95 on Aug. 24, it ran fine enough with the 8 megs of RAM. Eventually upgraded that machine again to 20 megs when the RAM prices had dropped quite a bit two years later or so. By that point it was trying to run Netscrape 4.0...

I don't know if that Cyrix 486DX2/50 would have been okay from a CPU performance standpoint for NT 3.51 (or the next year's NT 4), but you'd probably have needed 16MB of RAM. Two slots of memory, you'd probably be looking at $1000CAD in RAM.

I wouldn't have suggested to buy NT 4.0 for a PC that predated Win95. That would be strange to buy an OS and not get use out of it because you didn't budget the hardware upgrade.

People upgraded PCs with RAM too -- 9x or NT. They knew what they were getting into. Or they got someone to help them. I supported home users essentially without much money to burn, no one spent $1000 just on RAM, but yet there were PCs with NT around, so something is not quite right about what you are saying. Maybe for the early 90's for that much RAM, not late 90's.

I have PCs sitting right here from work I did in those days. One that ran NT4 and another that ran Win98. They are essentially the same. So you must not be familiar with NT in those days. All I can say is usually the release of the Microsoft OS came with a bump of system requirements. So upgrading was usually expected. These machines went out of service when 2000/XP came along, because they bought hardware for the new OS. It's what people did.

It was cool hearing and seeing NT4 in action when it was the current version. But I never used it at home. Yes, people liked it for being stable. It was the future arrived, and Microsoft was promising that it would be the main kernel very shortly, so it was a turning point, even if it wasn't meant for everyone yet due to Microsoft's rollout plan, it showed it was working and very viable.

Reply 101 of 132, by gerry

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Jo22 wrote on 2024-12-07, 07:09:
Personally, I do intentionally ignore the cost factor, because I feel it's no use. That's because my view on the matter is compl […]
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Personally, I do intentionally ignore the cost factor, because I feel it's no use.
That's because my view on the matter is completely upside down to that of others.

From my point of view, paying a high price is no suffering. It's a privilege.
Especially if you're an early adopter of something.

indeed, i think of it not as a regret but as a matter of interest, particularly the % of an average income that various items represented in the past. Something is almost always more expensive in the past, as % of income, than it is now - an obvious fact really as people have so many more things now.

there are some expectations, housing being the most obvious but perhaps also 'being entertained' when going out, eg meals, concert tickets and so on

the 90's saw the biggest change as 'things' became so much cheaper throughout the 90's not only from technology maturity but from increasing globalisation. We stopped paying salaries of fellows in our own countries to make things and started paying salaries of people abroad to make things, smaller salaries! and not only that but many manufacturers could increase economies of scale by selling to all of the world and so costs per unit became even lower. This had been happening and developing over a long time, but the 90's really accelerated it.

In 1970's you could have a household with one earner able to buy a house and basic items, but only some luxuries where having 1 tv and 1 car was considered good and maybe a family holiday per year, and that likely not too far away

and now in 2020's it is often difficult to buy a typical family house with even two good salaries, but it is fairly easy to have all kinds of luxury items and multiple holidays / travels a year

and interesting no one is happier now according to some surveys that try to compare past and present, despite all luxury and abundant material items

computers just follows the same path, but all the time also maturing as tech and increasing in volume - so those costs, especially when considered as cost per capability, have shrunk incredibly in the last 35 years, i cant think of anything that compares!

And fax machines! These multi function printers with built-in phone do basically take the role of a fax machine, too. […]
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And fax machines! These multi function printers with built-in phone do basically take the role of a fax machine, too.

Which is great, because there are movements to get rid of the fax machine everywhere. 😢
Being able to send a hand written letter or note over "phone line" is such a relief, though. Especially under time pressure.

Writing an e-mail via PC or mobile device is cumbersome by contrast.
You have to type in a long, cryptic e-mail address that's often misspelled.
So you have to wait for an e-mail about a delivery failure. It's so unnerving.

No, when it matters a physical fax machine is really nice.
Like picking up the handset on a landline phone.

i think faxes are all but gone, except in some applications. there must have been a point where computers were talking to computers, both pretending to be fax machines, more often than actual fax machines talking to fax machines

it is nice to think of hand written letters faxed though. however if doing so now one could write it, take photo and send image over whatsapp or similar, essentially the same process of using a phone to transmit an image!

Reply 102 of 132, by nfraser01

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The first time I saw a 128GB microSD card. 128GB no bigger than my thumb nail. After the casing is removed, where is the room to fit all that? Mindblown at the time.

Reply 104 of 132, by digger

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nfraser01 wrote on 2024-12-09, 12:37:

The first time I saw a 128GB microSD card. 128GB no bigger than my thumb nail. After the casing is removed, where is the room to fit all that? Mindblown at the time.

The funny thing is that years ago, I had a similar experience when I saw a 16GB microSD card, and compared it to the 3.5" spinning hard drives of yesteryear that had such a fraction of that capacity. 😁

I guess we'll have the same experience once 1TB microSD cards hit the market.

Reply 105 of 132, by myne

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VivienM wrote on 2024-12-07, 17:20:
The constraint being prices on hardware! […]
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the3dfxdude wrote on 2024-12-07, 15:42:
myne wrote on 2024-12-07, 04:14:

People complain about 9x, but the reality of the constraints of the time largely dictated it had to exist in roughly that form.

The constraint being that 9x was bundled with every retail machine? It existed because Microsoft marketed it for everyone. It wasn't a constraint, Microsoft wanted it that way!

I mean that was the right move to keep the jack of all trades 9x product offering, because on that day NT 4.0 had to grow in 32-bit apps compatible with it first. People actually wanted to run what everyone else was running on 9x. The issue with NT was software compatibility, not price. So Microsoft decided that NT was to be marked up slightly higher in price because they targeted business because that didn't mind throwing them a few extra dollars for a license and so Microsoft could still make their money back. Business people didn't care about the oh so scary thing of getting an extra 8 or 16 mb stick or a bigger harddrive. Nevermind people were buying 1k-2k machines with 9x in store, and then upgrading them a few months later with the same said memory stick, because that's how fast things moved, and because 9x sucked at resource management.

The constraint being prices on hardware!

e.g. my family bought a 486 with 4MB of RAM in Jan. 1995. Upgraded to 8MB to be able to properly use Office 4.2 in April or so - cost, $250CAD. Upgraded to 95 on Aug. 24, it ran fine enough with the 8 megs of RAM. Eventually upgraded that machine again to 20 megs when the RAM prices had dropped quite a bit two years later or so. By that point it was trying to run Netscrape 4.0...

I don't know if that Cyrix 486DX2/50 would have been okay from a CPU performance standpoint for NT 3.51 (or the next year's NT 4), but you'd probably have needed 16MB of RAM. Two slots of memory, you'd probably be looking at $1000CAD in RAM.

And actually, you know what, I just checked the system requirements - if the minimum for NT 4.0 is a 33MHz 486 with 16MB of RAM, forget it on that machine, you always needed to 'double' the minimum requirements for passable performance back then, so you're looking at a DX4 or Pentium with close to 32MB of RAM. Which, funnily enough, is exactly Microsoft's 'recommended' requirements.

There were just a huge, huge, huge amount of machines sold to home users in the pre-1999 or so period that could not handle NT, or at least could not run the same software those machines could run on 95/98 acceptably on NT without expensive, expensive additional RAM.

Bingo.
95 survived on 4mb, walked on 8, ran on 16.
NT simply couldn't do that.
I'm sure there's some ultra cut down old Linux that can match 95s capabilities on 4mb, but I doubt it would feel as useful.

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Re: A comprehensive guide to install and play MechWarrior 2 on new versions on Windows.
Dos+Windows 3.11 auto-install iso template (for vmware)
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Re: The thing no one asked for: KICAD 440bx reference schematic

Reply 106 of 132, by myne

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digger wrote on 2024-12-09, 12:50:

I guess we'll have the same experience once 1TB microSD cards hit the market.

*cough*
https://www.amazon.com.au/Sandisk-Extreme-mic … 6/dp/B07P9W5HJV

I built:
Convert old ASUS ASC boardviews to KICAD PCB!
Re: A comprehensive guide to install and play MechWarrior 2 on new versions on Windows.
Dos+Windows 3.11 auto-install iso template (for vmware)
Script to backup Win9x\ME drivers from a working install
Re: The thing no one asked for: KICAD 440bx reference schematic

Reply 107 of 132, by gerry

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nfraser01 wrote on 2024-12-09, 12:43:

Playing Elite on a BBC Micro

ah yes, that game did the rounds on lots of platforms back then, the above i think is the first around 1984 and then it went around other 8 bit systems and even the PC ins 1987

i played it a long time ago, though not at release, to play it in 84 without prev knowledge of it must have been amazing

i found it amazing even playing it later on to have a "whole universe" available but i also noticed a few things:

-planets were 'types' and the other small details didn't really matter much
-making jumps to other planets therefore wasn't as interesting really, in game terms (in imagination terms was good though!)
-same for jumps to other galaxies
-optimal trade could be achieved between two fairly near planets, staying around there for the whole game

never the less its procedurally generated content plus the events/missions and progressions was way beyond anything seen before it

lots of games use procedural generation but not many have truly solved the issue of generated elements feeling overly the same, and hence not really different. i played no mans sky and it was impressive, but again after a short while things started seeming about the same everywhere. maybe minecraft is one of the best examples of this approach (although there seem to be lots now: https://www.dualshockers.com/best-procedurall … o-games-ranked/ )

if i played a generated game with elements that feel genuinely different with expansive detail then i think i'd have such a moment too

Reply 108 of 132, by BitWrangler

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I had Elite soon after it arrived on the Sinclair ZX Spectrum, but I "didn't get it" Possibly didn't see what was going on with the scanner and was real unc0-0rdinated with the controls ... ... ... then a year or so later, got to play it on a school BBC Master, and it clicked... and I was able to transfer that first little chunk of learning curve back to the spectrum. Then due to things like expansion pack wobbles and the power socket getting glitchy because of no reset, the Spectrum could not be relied on to run several hours straight. Also I had to share with siblings. So I still really didn't get very far at a time with it. So the whole thing was kind of revealed to me in small stages and I didn't quite get that same "Whoa!" moment. But when I was a teen, I picked up a Spectrum plus for next to nothing, to be all my own, and played the hell out of it on a 7" black and white TV.

Unicorn herding operations are proceeding, but all the totes of hens teeth and barrels of rocking horse poop give them plenty of hiding spots.

Reply 109 of 132, by Errius

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Elite, Carrier Command, Sentinel (Sentry) and Bard's Tale were games that passed me by on the Spectrum, but which became big favorites on the PC. There was also Driller (Space Station Oblivion) which I enjoyed on both platforms.
Retroactively going back to the Spectrum versions is not pleasant. I can forgive the limited graphics, but not the slowness. Playing them in an emulator at 2x original speed is the only way to go.

Is this too much voodoo?

Reply 110 of 132, by revolstar

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For me it's definitely seeing Mad Dog McRee in the arcades back in 1992, it blew my 7 year old mind. Didn't actually get to play it cuz the queues were too long... 😒

Then, seeing Virtua Fighter and Sega Rally in the arcades (agaaaain) in the mid-90s, my first hands-on experience of 3d gaming.

Then prolly playing BattleNet Diablo over dial-up at my friend's and trading in-game items with some Aussies.

Then, mp3s, WinAMP and napster.

And finally, affordable recording gear and easily-available DAWs that turn your bedroom PC into an actual recording studio for one millionth of the cost the Beatles were charged for Abbey Road 😀

Last edited by revolstar on 2024-12-12, 06:47. Edited 1 time in total.

Win98 rig: Athlon XP 2500+/512MB RAM/Gigabyte GA-7VT600/SB Live!/GF FX5700/Voodoo2 12MB
WinXP rig: HP RP5800 - Pentium G850/2GB RAM/GF GT530 1GB
Amiga: A600/2MB RAM
PS3: 500GB HDD Slim, mostly for RetroArch, PSX & PS2 games

Reply 111 of 132, by RetroPCCupboard

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For me it was when I upgraded from my 286 PC to a Pentium 120Mhz. I was blown away with the difference in graphics that the games had. To me it was photo-realistic. And my HDD Space went up from 20Mb to 1Gb. Mind blown. I thought I would never fill it. Also I went from PC speaker sound to SB16. Again, my mind was blown.

Next was the transition to hardware 3D acceleration. My first 3D Accelerator was the Matrox Mistique. Maybe not looked on that fondly now, but for me it was incredible. I didn't have 3dfx until the Voodoo 2000.

I think after that my next mind blowing moment was when I saw GTA move from a 2D game to a 3D game. This was an incredible game for the time.

Reply 113 of 132, by Xanxi

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When WiFi became available and i had it on my laptop. Seemed to me as an amazing breakthrough, after i have been running cables through the house for years. Security was weak though.

Reply 114 of 132, by pentiumspeed

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S.T.U.N. Runner acade machine came out in 1989. CPU was 68010 and used Ti TMS34010 to render triangles, pseudo 3D look.

https://www.arcade-history.com/?page=detail&id=2289

Cheers,

Great Northern aka Canada.

Reply 115 of 132, by Errius

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Xanxi wrote on 2024-12-11, 20:40:

When WiFi became available and i had it on my laptop. Seemed to me as an amazing breakthrough, after i have been running cables through the house for years. Security was weak though.

I remember trying Wi-Fi when it was still new technology. I sent several 700MB CD images back and forth over the network and tested file integrity. Corruption every time.

Nearly 20 years later I still wire all my computers. I would switch Wi-Fi off completely, except that my mobile phone uses it.

Is this too much voodoo?

Reply 116 of 132, by britain4

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The PS2, after having grown up playing PS1 games. Absolutely mind blowing and every leap since has been underwhelming by comparison.

When I first tried out a Toshiba Libretto U100 in a regular PC chain store in the UK - in my mind that was the moment it went from an old, obscure, Japan exclusive series to a device that would revolutionise the future of laptops (then nobody bought one!).

Burning my own CDs, then the iPod, then being able to get apps like MSN messenger on my (jailbroken) 1st Gen iPhone instead of being tied to the computer! With a touchscreen interface and keyboard that actually worked!

All personal milestone moments

- 486DX2-66, SoundBlaster 16, Crystal VLB graphics
- P-MMX 200MHZ, PCChips M598LMR, Voodoo 1, AD1816
- PIII 933MHz, MSI MS6119, Voodoo3 3000, SB Live!
- PIII 1400MHz, ECS P6IPAT, Voodoo5 5500, SB Audigy

Reply 117 of 132, by BitWrangler

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The pocket computers, static CPU, BASIC, were pretty mindblowing in early 80s, I think I was first mooning over the PC-2 in a Tandy/RadioShack store. Have a Sharp version now, but I guess the excitement wore off with not being able to do much with a single half line of text, though machine code can get you addressable pixels but it was hard/poorly-known at time. One day if I get super bored, I guess I should see if there's some VIC-20 or ZX81 (for the low RAM) text adventure magazine listings I could adapt.

Then a short time later, the Psion Organisers appeared, those really seemed like the shiznit when they got two whole lines.

Now there was something else that blew my mind in 1987 or 1988, but I can't figure out what it was, all the well known stuff is couple of years later. It was like a Psion Series 3, had text and spreadsheet type apps that the data was transferable to PC but wasn't PC compatible. Also could be programmed natively, on the machine. I don't see how my memory could be playing tricks, since the guy who had it, his year left school in 1988, so I would not have seen him after that. So it's actually prior to July 1988 that I saw this. I guess there's a slight chance he was "in" to get transcripts or something in fall 88 and he was showing off his summer job "spoils" then, but that would be absolute limit. Might be something that more gets thrown in the organiser category and happened to have these extra functions. For some reason I was thinking it had a well known CPU like a Z80.

Unicorn herding operations are proceeding, but all the totes of hens teeth and barrels of rocking horse poop give them plenty of hiding spots.

Reply 118 of 132, by 386SX

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Probably the moment I've seen Stunts (1991) dos game running on a Compaq Presario 425/433 a friend had in the 1993 and I still didn't have any x86 pc at home. And I came from 2D arcade games at best and 8bit game consoles at that time. The whole 3D (and 2.5D for Wolfeinstein3D ) was such impressive thing. Even using an "os" like Windows 3.11 was something so advanced. I only had my 80386SX computer probably the year after like 1994 maybe and it was already an old second hand pc of course.

But there were many more moments like seeing the Pixel Shader early rendering, the EMBM screenshots of the G400, the Doom3 tech demo moments, the early 3DMarks benchmarks etc..

Reply 119 of 132, by gerry

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britain4 wrote on 2024-12-12, 16:59:

The PS2, after having grown up playing PS1 games. Absolutely mind blowing and every leap since has been underwhelming by comparison.

I thought the PS1 amazing but agree the PS2 was such a huge jump

pixel_workbench wrote on 2024-12-07, 00:53:

*PlayStation 2, playing Gran Turismo 3.

i remember seeing gt3 the first time on someone's new PS2 on their new expensive tv and it looked like "reality" 😀