There are adapters for connecting SATA drives to motherboards with PATA.

I think a SATA PCI card would require drivers?

Plenty of SATA to IDE adapters available, doesn’t need to be specific to SSD.

You can also use a PCI SATA card if you like, but that seems overkill.

As for native PCI SSD, I’ve never seen such a thing, but if something were to exist it would need to boot with an option ROM, so in essence would just be a PCI SATA card with a built-in SATA SSD.

There are also relatively cheap 44pin IDE native SSDs available now.

Here is an example I found from a quick ebay search. There are probably better deals out there.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/256678784499

The 44-pin IDE SSDs are OK, they aren’t the fastest by any means, but the one I have in my PowerBook G4 is certainly better than the mechanical drive that was in it.

akimmet wrote on 2025-01-07, 20:03:

There are also relatively cheap 44pin IDE native SSDs available now.

Here is an example I found from a quick ebay search. There are probably better deals out there.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/256678784499

Most of those cheap 44pin IDE devices are mSata or m2 Sata devices in a caddy with a Pata-Sata bridge.

That's not necessarily terrible, but unless you are planning on using it in a laptop that was made between 1998 and 2004, it is often terrible adjacent.

Why?
* The mSata or m2 Sata devices inside the caddies are usually the cheapest, slowest, unbuffered sata products. They are faster than mechanical drives, but the performance & lifespan is questionable.
* The Pata-Sata bridge chips are almost always Jmicon clones that have issues with late 486 & early Pentium system that want to do MWDMA instead of UDMA.
* If your system is a desktop computer, you need to install an awkward 44 pin to 40 pin converter that usually stresses the flimsy external pins on the caddy

I'd only recommend those cheap 44pin IDE devices if you are looking for a challenge or you have a laptop that was made between 1998 and 2004.

If you want an SSD in a PCI system, my advice is:
1) If you demand transfer rates > 30MB/s, get a PCI sata controller (that has a BIOS on board) and connect it to a native Sata SSD. It's simple & fast and saves much much time.
2) If you are OK transfer rates < 30MB/s, get a nice industrial CF, 40 pin DOM, or Sintechi SD adapter. They are simple, cheap, and usually fast enough for systems < 300 Mhz.

If you go the CF route, maybe buy 2 or 3 CF's from different vendors to decrease the chance of getting a lemon. They are cheap enough and there's some crud in the market place.

If you are using Windows 98, stick with devices < 128GB.

douglar wrote on 2025-01-07, 21:22:

Most of those cheap 44pin IDE devices are mSata or m2 Sata devices in a caddy with a Pata-Sata bridge. […]
Show full quote

akimmet wrote on 2025-01-07, 20:03:

There are also relatively cheap 44pin IDE native SSDs available now.

Here is an example I found from a quick ebay search. There are probably better deals out there.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/256678784499

Most of those cheap 44pin IDE devices are mSata or m2 Sata devices in a caddy with a Pata-Sata bridge.

That's not necessarily terrible, but unless you are planning on using it in a laptop that was made between 1998 and 2004, it is often terrible adjacent.

Why?
* The mSata or m2 Sata devices inside the caddies are usually the cheapest, slowest, unbuffered sata products. They are faster than mechanical drives, but the performance & lifespan is questionable.
* The Pata-Sata bridge chips are almost always Jmicon clones that have issues with late 486 & early Pentium system that want to do MWDMA instead of UDMA.
* If your system is a desktop computer, you need to install an awkward 44 pin to 40 pin converter that usually stresses the flimsy external pins on the caddy

I'd only recommend those cheap 44pin IDE devices if you are looking for a challenge or you have a laptop that was made between 1998 and 2004.

If you want an SSD in a PCI system, my advice is:
1) If you demand transfer rates > 30MB/s, get a PCI sata controller (that has a BIOS on board) and connect it to a native Sata SSD. It's simple & fast and saves much much time.
2) If you are OK transfer rates < 30MB/s, get a nice industrial CF, 40 pin DOM, or Sintechi SD adapter. They are simple, cheap, and usually fast enough for systems < 300 Mhz.

If you go the CF route, maybe buy 2 or 3 CF's from different vendors to decrease the chance of getting a lemon. They are cheap enough and there's some crud in the market place.

If you are using Windows 98, stick with devices < 128GB.

Alternatively, especially for a machine that has ATA66 or faster IDE ports, an IDE to SATA converter (Marvell and JMicron based ones support TRIM, Sunplus based ones do not, AFAICR, if one cares) + a decent SSD (Samsung 860 and 870 EVOs are fast, reliable and compatible, in my experience) could be an option. Marvell based adapters are most compatible. JMicron based adapters work on at least some older IDE chipsets (440BX's PIIx4E and ICH2, for example), but have issues with VIA and Intel ICH4 southbridge based ones (and possibly others). I have not extensively tested Sunplus based adapters.

There are PATA SSDs which basically act like a regular drive as far as the PC is concerned. In my Win98 retro PC, I use a 32 GB version of this drive: https://us.transcend-info.com/embedded/produc … olutions/psd330

y2k se wrote on 2025-01-08, 02:57:

There are PATA SSDs which basically act like a regular drive as far as the PC is concerned. In my Win98 retro PC, I use a 32 GB version of this drive: https://us.transcend-info.com/embedded/produc … olutions/psd330

Yes there are. And if you open the 32GB version of the psd330, you will find that it has the same internals as the 32GB trancend cf 170 industrial compact flash drive. Same controller, flash layout, etc. That’s because CF’s are also PATA SSD’s just in a smaller format.

darry wrote on 2025-01-08, 02:54:

r a machine that has ATA66 or faster IDE ports, an IDE to SATA converter (Marvell and JMicron based ones support TRIM, Sunplus based ones do not, AFAICR, if one cares) + a decent SSD (Samsung 860 and 870 EVOs are fast, reliable and compatible, in my experience) could be an option. Marvell based adapters are most compatible. JMicron based adapters work on at least some older IDE chipsets (440BX's PIIx4E and ICH2, for example), but have issues with VIA and Intel ICH4 southbridge based ones (and possibly others). I have not extensively tested Sunplus based adapters.

The Marvell ones are the nicest out of what’s commonly available, yes. Fastest and most compatible. They also cost almost as much as a used PCI udma controller.

The Sunplus were about 10% slower than the jmicron and still had the same MWDMA issues. They usually come in nice cases that protect your computer from stray exposed voltage lines.

Maybe I was too harsh on the bridged sata devices from messing with them for too long and getting frustrated in socket 3 - 7 builds. They generally work and are faster than almost all other storage options . Just stick with PIO or UDMA controllers. And ifyou can, print out a bracket to hold it all together.

Re: 3D print topic?

Something like this?

I found a pile of 64GB-256GB M.2 SATA SSDs in our work dumpster.

So I set about seeing how I could use them. What you're seeing is AliExpress' finest Frankenstein.

The SSD is mounted on an NFHK N-1061A 'PCIe 1X To 2-port SATA M.2 NGFF SSD Adapter'

I then stuck that on a Trotwei Blue PXE8112 'PCI to PCI Express X16 Conversion Card Adapter'

Testing shows that it works fine on any PCI slot, appearing to the system with a SATA bootROM - provided it supplies 3.3V power. So in this state it's not going to work on old BX boards unless you mod them to supply 3.3V, but say a P4 motherboard will work fine. I'm probably going to use this in a system with i865 chipset and early Core2Duo CPU.

I doubt NVMe would work (using NVMe M.2 to PCIe adapter) as that requires specific BIOS support.

dionb wrote on 2025-01-08, 13:17:

Something like this?

That's an impressive stack of adapters! As an alternative, you can also get something like this:

Those adapters are relatively cheap because they just reroute signals without a bridge chip, sort of like how a 44 pin to 40 pin pata adapter or a 50 pin CF to 40 pin pata adapter works.

dionb wrote on 2025-01-08, 13:17:

I doubt NVMe would work (using NVMe M.2 to PCIe adapter) as that requires specific BIOS support.

That's very true. NVMe doesn't use ATA or AHCI commands and is significantly different protocol. It's going to be alien to firmware < UEFI and to operating systems < Vista. Well, 64-bit XP has a driver that can mount NVME volumes after booting, but cannot boot from it, but you get the idea. I hear some linux boot loaders like GRUB can change int13h calls into NVMe speech, but the performance is atrocious, since most boot loaders are only expected to run until a full NVME driver can get loaded.

edit 1 : GRUB still has to get loaded from a device that the BIOS can see
edit 2: NVME was designed for systems with 64bit addressing and low latency transfers. Trying to run it on a 32bit CPUs running < 2GHz on a 32bit bus running < 1GHz isn't impossible, but you are going to have all sorts of bottlenecks

douglar wrote on 2025-01-08, 15:49:

That's an impressive stack of adapters! As an alternative, you can also get something like this: […]
Show full quote

dionb wrote on 2025-01-08, 13:17:

Something like this?

That's an impressive stack of adapters! As an alternative, you can also get something like this:

The attachment Untitled.png is no longer available

Those adapters are relatively cheap because they just reroute signals without a bridge chip, sort of like how a 44 pin to 40 pin pata adapter or a 50 pin CF to 40 pin pata adapter works.

Nice and elegant indeed. Only thing is you need a SATA adapter to use one. Not that that is a major issue - they would be cheaper than this PCIe-PCI adapter and would work in every system this would and more (some work in 5V slots).

[...] […]
Show full quote

[...]

That's very true. NVMe doesn't use ATA or AHCI commands and is significantly different protocol. It's going to be alien to firmware < UEFI and to operating systems < Vista. Well, 64-bit XP has a driver that can mount NVME volumes after booting, but cannot boot from it, but you get the idea. I hear some linux boot loaders like GRUB can change int13h calls into NVMe speech, but the performance is atrocious, since most boot loaders are only expected to run until a full NVME driver can get loaded.

edit 1 : GRUB still has to get loaded from a device that the BIOS can see
edit 2: NVME was designed for systems with 64bit addressing and low latency transfers. Trying to run it on a 32bit CPUs running < 2GHz on a 32bit bus running < 1GHz isn't impossible, but you are going to have all sorts of bottlenecks

Almost sounds like a challenge worth attempting 😜

Unfortunately I don't have a similar pile of NVMe drives, all mine are in daily use. Maybe one day when I start upgrading to the point I replace my oldest ones...

How are you at soldering? https://github.com/dosdude1/2.5-inch-ide-ssd

Matth79 wrote on 2025-01-08, 17:12:

How are you at soldering? https://github.com/dosdude1/2.5-inch-ide-ssd

Looks like a fun project. If only I had the time.

How much would that cost to put together? I see new 32GB Transcend CF170 devices for $50 and used 8GB Transcend CF170's selling for less than $20.

there are some mega-mind people doing EXACTLY what I want over on 68KMLA https://68kmla.org/bb/index.php?threads/a-hig … birthday.43133/

it hasnt been updated in a few months, but its exactly what you (and me) are looking for.

luckybob wrote on 2025-01-08, 18:39:

there are some mega-mind people doing EXACTLY what I want over on 68KMLA https://68kmla.org/bb/index.php?threads/a-hig … birthday.43133/

it hasnt been updated in a few months, but its exactly what you (and me) are looking for.

FYI https://shop.rabbitholecomputing.com/products … a-pci-hard-card

luckybob wrote on 2025-01-08, 18:39:

there are some mega-mind people doing EXACTLY what I want over on 68KMLA https://68kmla.org/bb/index.php?threads/a-hig … birthday.43133/

I worked a computer lab of two dozen IBM 5150's circa 1988 that all had 20MB hard cards. There's really something to be said for the speed and simplicity that integrated devices like that can bring to the table.

So take an msata hard card and add an optimized version of XTide and you would be good to go. Unfortunately, until you can reach an economy of scale, the price can be prohibitive.

weedeewee wrote on 2025-01-08, 18:53:

FYI https://shop.rabbitholecomputing.com/products … a-pci-hard-card

Very nice.

"The boot ROM shipped with the board is the Silicon Image reference PC bootable ROM. The included 4 Mbit flash memory supports boot ROM images of up to 524,288 bytes"

What other boot roms would you put on there?

douglar wrote on 2025-01-08, 18:59:

What other boot roms would you put on there?

1. The Macintosh one needs much more room than the PC one.

2. It's probably easier/cheaper to source and program that particular flash rom than older/smaller ones.

3. Maybe if you got industrious, you could add a switch to bank select between pc and mac?

4. It is Wednesday, my dudes.