VOGONS


Potential upgrade Advice

Topic actions

Reply 20 of 42, by predator_085

User metadata
Rank Member
Rank
Member
Matth79 wrote on 2025-03-18, 17:56:
I had the SoA version, 7IXE4, and loaded it with 3x 128MB - Win98SE can accept 384MB, you just have to follow the rule that VCAC […]
Show full quote

I had the SoA version, 7IXE4, and loaded it with 3x 128MB - Win98SE can accept 384MB, you just have to follow the rule that VCACHE + AGP aperture < 512MB - even though you have < 512, the virtual mapping could still break it if you forget that rule.
Also, can use 256MB modules but MUST be low density / double sided.
Early Irongate chipsets had a flaw, Geforce drivers limited them to AGP 1x - SOME drivers allowed overriding to 2x if the later (super bypass capable) chipset was used.
If I remember right from the AGP cards I tried....
Rage 128 - worked
S3 Savage 3d - NO GO
Geforce 2 MX - ok, but even though I had the later chipset, faced the AGP 1x limit in some drivers
Geforce 4 MX - same

Thanks for the info. Like I said was not aware of t hat flaw of the irongate mobo. In that case I will just keep using my Voodoo 3 and my Elza card.

Maybe I will get another righ as a super late win 98 gaming machine with geforce fx card.

A later athlon mobo perhabs or Socket 370 board with fast pentium 3.

Are socket 370 boards also picky with higher end geforce cards like the geforce fx?

Reply 21 of 42, by CharlieFoxtrot

User metadata
Rank Member
Rank
Member
predator_085 wrote on 2025-03-19, 06:58:
Thanks for the info. Like I said was not aware of t hat flaw of the irongate mobo. In that case I will just keep using my […]
Show full quote

Thanks for the info. Like I said was not aware of t hat flaw of the irongate mobo. In that case I will just keep using my Voodoo 3 and my Elza card.

Maybe I will get another righ as a super late win 98 gaming machine with geforce fx card.

A later athlon mobo perhabs or Socket 370 board with fast pentium 3.

Are socket 370 boards also picky with higher end geforce cards like the geforce fx?

Starting to plan a new build is probably a good way to go as you don't need to struggle with compatibility issues or other limitations of your current system. It is a neat system for what it is.

I've never heard of such compatibility issues with s370 in general. However, there are several chipsets available as well as different s370 MBs, so there certainly are duds among that crowd. With s370 you also need to think if you need ISA slot or Tualatin support. Some early boards may even support only Mendocino Celerons AFAIK, so all s370 MBs certainly aren't build the same. They have different kind of AGP slots too, some only AGP 2x and newer have universal AGPs. Some boards don't have AGP at all.

Socket A is another fine option, but it has some things you need to think also beforehand. One is the PSU issue, you need heavy 5V rail if MB doesn't have 12V VRM for CPU, which pretty much all earlier MBs and AMD or VIA chipset boards lack. Many modern PSUs simply won't work well with these systems, unless they are some ridicilously overpowered beasts. There are also countless of chipsets and motherboards available for socket A spanning from something like VIA KT133 to nVidia nForce2 and VIA KT600. There are bad MBs and really good ones and with different specs and features. Earlier boards may not have support for later and faster Athlon XP processors.

Then there is of course the capacitor plague that riddled late 90s and early 2000s MBs and PSUs. Completely functional stuff can be found, but the issue is still real and recapping may be needed. For example my SlotA EpoX 7KXA required recapping, as did my Epox 8rga+ nForce2 mobo, but my Abit KG7 RAID still works perfectly with original caps. It really depends and there are no absoluteluy "safe" brands or MBs.

My beefier win98 rig is an "all AMD high end system from autumn 2001". It has AMD Athlon TB 1400MHz, aforementioned Abit KG7 RAID socket A MB with AMD 760 chipset, 2x256MB DDR Cas 2, Ati Radeon 8500 and Audigy1. GPU was of course still ATi by that point, but that is probably the joke here. It has perhaps twice if not more the oomph that my SlotA system has and it pretty much provides everything I need for later 98 era stuff and my watercooled socket A winXP nForce2 "high end summer 2003" rig deals with the rest when I need to go deeper to the XP era gaming and I want even more performance. I have really no interest with later stuff than 2003-04 at best, so that late socket A system is and most likely will be the end of the line of my retro systems.

Reply 22 of 42, by stef80

User metadata
Rank Member
Rank
Member
predator_085 wrote on 2025-03-19, 06:58:

Are socket 370 boards also picky with higher end geforce cards like the geforce fx?

Absolutely not (i815 chipset). Everything just works and you also get modern IDE controller. But you don't get ISA. I recommend Intel Desktop boards on i815 (quality Nichicon caps, no capacitor plague there).
There were also some late BX440 s370 boards, that had ISA and 3rd party IDE controllers.

Reply 23 of 42, by dionb

User metadata
Rank l33t++
Rank
l33t++
stef80 wrote on 2025-03-19, 09:22:

[...]

Absolutely not (i815 chipset). Everything just works and you also get modern IDE controller. But you don't get ISA. I recommend Intel Desktop boards on i815 (quality Nichicon caps, no capacitor plague there).
There were also some late BX440 s370 boards, that had ISA and 3rd party IDE controllers.

There were So370 boards from i440LX/EX (and SiS 5600, Via Apollo Pro etc) onwards. In particular early boards might not be able to deliver enough power to the AGP slot for heavy, late cards - and AGP 1.0 slots can't fit AGP 3.0 ("8x") cards in any event.

So yes, agreed that just about any AGP card will work in an i815 system (with universal AGP 2.0), but that most definitely doesn't mean all So370 boards will be as flexible.

Reply 24 of 42, by predator_085

User metadata
Rank Member
Rank
Member
stef80 wrote on 2025-03-19, 09:22:
predator_085 wrote on 2025-03-19, 06:58:

Are socket 370 boards also picky with higher end geforce cards like the geforce fx?

Absolutely not (i815 chipset). Everything just works and you also get modern IDE controller. But you don't get ISA. I recommend Intel Desktop boards on i815 (quality Nichicon caps, no capacitor plague there).
There were also some late BX440 s370 boards, that had ISA and 3rd party IDE controllers.

Thanks for your reply. Yes, looking into an I 815 mobo sounds like a good suggestion. The lack of an ISA port is not a big problem. I think I will turn my current Athlon system into a Win 98SE/Dos System to use the ISA slot for my gigabyte mainboard.

The Socket 370 system would serve as a Windows 98 gaming system only.

The Suggestion from @CharlieFoxtrot getting a second high end Athlon system sounds cool as well. The only drawback would be the potential bad caps. I am not at soldering so I would have to ask a buddy to help me with that.

I will look into the market prices of both systems before making my final decision. At the moment I am more inclined towards the socket 370 I815 system with a 1 GHZ P3 as my cpu.

Reply 25 of 42, by CharlieFoxtrot

User metadata
Rank Member
Rank
Member
predator_085 wrote on 2025-03-19, 10:46:

The Suggestion from @CharlieFoxtrot getting a second high end Athlon system sounds cool as well. The only drawback would be the potential bad caps. I am not at soldering so I would have to ask a buddy to help me with that.

Just to note, that comment wasn't aimed at any particular platform, bad capacitors are a problem generally. Someone suggested certain Intel made motherboards with purely japanese caps, and yes japanese caps are generally more reliable compared to cheap taiwanese and chinese caps many facturers used during the "plague" years. Many MBs also had handful of japanese caps used on the CPU VRM, rest was cheap crap.

However, there are no guarantees with even those. The biggest problem with these boards are usually CPU, AGP and memory VRM filtering caps. During the turn of the millennium power delivery requirements and signal frequencies were rising rapidly. This caused that MB manufacturers needed to use very low ESR caps on these locations on the motherboard (often called ultra-low ESR electrolytic capacitors noting that they aren't just regular low-esr caps). Cheap taiwanese and chinese manufacturers made these low quality caps that could burst within a year in use. The big problem with these kind of caps is that they are not that reliable in general compared to general use caps. That is the reason why they were replaced by polymer capacitors in late 2000s when those became affordable and available in higher capacitances. Nobody even makes those kinds of electrolytic caps anymore.

All in all, all 20+ year old caps are and should be suspected, but especially those ultra-low ESR ones. Even those from reputable manufacturers. A lot depends on the hours they've been used, temperatures and storage conditions. I've bumped into failed caps in unused equipment, that is, only time is needed to kill these kind of caps.

Reply 26 of 42, by stef80

User metadata
Rank Member
Rank
Member
predator_085 wrote on 2025-03-19, 10:46:

The Suggestion from @CharlieFoxtrot getting a second high end Athlon system sounds cool as well. The only drawback would be the potential bad caps. I am not at soldering so I would have to ask a buddy to help me with that.

I have one Windows 98 system based on ECS SiS board (K7S6A - golden PCB) and Geode NX1750, it works great with low power CPUs. Universal AGP:
download/file.php?id=105979&mode=view

There are also "purple PCB" ECS boards based on SiS chipset. Phil tested some, so you can check that.

Reply 27 of 42, by CharlieFoxtrot

User metadata
Rank Member
Rank
Member
stef80 wrote on 2025-03-19, 11:19:

I have one Windows 98 system based on ECS SiS board (K7S6A - golden PCB) and Geode NX1750, it works great with low power CPUs. Universal AGP.
There are also "purple PCB" ECS boards based on SiS chipset. Phil tested some, so you can check that.

Well, that Geode consumes something like 15-20W or some other small fraction of Athlon so it almost runs from a AA battery 🤣. Have you tried how it overclocks? I think the nominal core voltage is something like 1,25V or, so little voltage boost might do wonders. They are unlocked too, yes?

One thing with Geodes is that many socket A boards do not post with those CPUs. Or so I've heard, I don't own one.

Reply 28 of 42, by mwdmeyer

User metadata
Rank Oldbie
Rank
Oldbie

Geforce 3 Ti 500 worked for me in my Athlon 750 Pluto

https://www.vogonswiki.com/index.php/Athlon_750_Benchmarks

Vogons Wiki - http://vogonswiki.com

Reply 29 of 42, by stef80

User metadata
Rank Member
Rank
Member

SiS and VIA should work better then nforce with low power/mobile cpus. (Maybe Abit NF7 with Mantaray BIOS.) I think it got recognized as "Athlon XP-M" or something like that.
ECS is not very OC friendly, should probably try with Abit KT600 or similar. But it supports 1.25V and multiplier can be changed via software on-the-fly.

Reply 30 of 42, by predator_085

User metadata
Rank Member
Rank
Member

Thanks for the further infos guys.

@CharlieFoxtrot Yes I am fully aware that caps need to checked out carefuly after the purchase of any purchased new/old mainboard. I have just heard (not sure if true) t hat some boards are more prone to bad caps than others. The rule of thumb is to inspect every cap carefuly before putting the system together.

@steff80 Thanks for showing your system. Elitegroup and SIS are 2 companies I have not heard much about but price wise the K7S6A looks quite interesting. As you have recommended i will check out the videos from Phil about the boards based on the SIS chipset. I also need to learn more about the geod cpu.

@mwdmeyer i see thanks for the interesting info.

Reply 31 of 42, by CharlieFoxtrot

User metadata
Rank Member
Rank
Member
mwdmeyer wrote on 2025-03-19, 11:51:

Geforce 3 Ti 500 worked for me in my Athlon 750 Pluto

https://www.vogonswiki.com/index.php/Athlon_750_Benchmarks

That ti500 works probably at AGPx1, because your benchmark numbers aren't good for GF3 ti500 and 750MHz Athlon. Just as a reference, my 7KXA with KX133 chipset (which does not have compatibility problems), with 750Mhz Pluto and GF2 GTS scored ~6200 points in 3DM2000 and now that I have the CPU at 800MHz, couple of hundred more. I use 7.76 drivers, but even with something like 45.23 with probably comparable driver overhead to what you used, I got around 5500 points.

There is no huge performance difference between the Irongate and KX133, even when KX133 is with 133MHz memory. Especially if Irongate has super bypass enabled. So you may get those newer GPUs working, but they do not work with a performance level expected. On the other hand, one local fellow hobbyists didn't get his Irongate board working with any GF card he tried (GF2MX, GTS etc.) , so he ended up with Voodoo3.

Reply 32 of 42, by mwdmeyer

User metadata
Rank Oldbie
Rank
Oldbie
CharlieFoxtrot wrote on 2025-03-19, 13:58:
mwdmeyer wrote on 2025-03-19, 11:51:

Geforce 3 Ti 500 worked for me in my Athlon 750 Pluto

https://www.vogonswiki.com/index.php/Athlon_750_Benchmarks

That ti500 works probably at AGPx1, because your benchmark numbers aren't good for GF3 ti500 and 750MHz Athlon. Just as a reference, my 7KXA with KX133 chipset (which does not have compatibility problems), with 750Mhz Pluto and GF2 GTS scored ~6200 points in 3DM2000 and now that I have the CPU at 800MHz, couple of hundred more. I use 7.76 drivers, but even with something like 45.23 with probably comparable driver overhead to what you used, I got around 5500 points.

There is no huge performance difference between the Irongate and KX133, even when KX133 is with 133MHz memory. Especially if Irongate has super bypass enabled. So you may get those newer GPUs working, but they do not work with a performance level expected. On the other hand, one local fellow hobbyists didn't get his Irongate board working with any GF card he tried (GF2MX, GTS etc.) , so he ended up with Voodoo3.

Yes you are probably right, but still a big increase over a TNT2 or Geforce 2 MX etc.

Vogons Wiki - http://vogonswiki.com

Reply 33 of 42, by predator_085

User metadata
Rank Member
Rank
Member

It is interesting to read that some cards might work with the iron gate mobo. But I have decided to keep things simple. I will keep most of the components of my first build as they are now. I will jget another sound card,test the TNT 2, and ad ssd.

I am also curious to turn my Gigabyte GA-7IXE board into a windows 98SE/Dos system.

How is the availability of ISA sound cards this day? Which card would you guys as the best bang for the buck?

In order to have a more powerful Win98SE gaming system I will start from scratch and get a new neat socket 370 system or late Athlon System.

Reply 34 of 42, by dionb

User metadata
Rank l33t++
Rank
l33t++
predator_085 wrote on 2025-03-19, 21:55:

[...]

How is the availability of ISA sound cards this day? Which card would you guys as the best bang for the buck?

That's a huge rabbit hole.

There were a couple in the giveaway thread a few days ago. Free is always best bang for buck. Otherwise, I personally find Creative buggy, overrated and thus overpriced. ALS100 (not 100+) based cards are interesting, with good compatibility, real or 1:1 clone OPL3, SB16 support and bug-free MIDI, and usually they're ignored (or indeed given away free).

Reply 35 of 42, by chinny22

User metadata
Rank l33t++
Rank
l33t++

Not sure you need another late Win98 box.
Any game that doesn't run on my 650 run fine on my much more powerful XP rig which has the added benefit of allowing me to enable AA, AF, and all the other driver enhancements.

But if you want another more powerful Win9x box that's fine, well I hope it is as I've at least 4 Win9x PC's setup at any one time.

Re ISA soundcards, Yamaha YMF or ESS are the common budget cards people typically choose, but I'd just see what's available then do a quick check to see what are it's pros and cons as EVERY card has it's negative points and its more about working out what's important for you and your games. Luckily most ISA cards have been document here pretty well

Reply 36 of 42, by stef80

User metadata
Rank Member
Rank
Member
predator_085 wrote on 2025-03-19, 12:13:

@steff80 Thanks for showing your system. Elitegroup and SIS are 2 companies I have not heard much about but price wise the K7S6A looks quite interesting. As you have recommended i will check out the videos from Phil about the boards based on the SIS chipset. I also need to learn more about the geod cpu.

If you're from EU, I see somebody offering some new-old-stock boards. Be warned, some capacitors may still be bad/bulging even though the board was never used. One under the AGP slot looks suspicious.
EDIT: Other boards.

Reply 37 of 42, by predator_085

User metadata
Rank Member
Rank
Member
chinny22 wrote on 2025-03-20, 04:09:
Not sure you need another late Win98 box. Any game that doesn't run on my 650 run fine on my much more powerful XP rig which ha […]
Show full quote

Not sure you need another late Win98 box.
Any game that doesn't run on my 650 run fine on my much more powerful XP rig which has the added benefit of allowing me to enable AA, AF, and all the other driver enhancements.

But if you want another more powerful Win9x box that's fine, well I hope it is as I've at least 4 Win9x PC's setup at any one time.

Re ISA soundcards, Yamaha YMF or ESS are the common budget cards people typically choose, but I'd just see what's available then do a quick check to see what are it's pros and cons as EVERY card has it's negative points and its more about working out what's important for you and your games. Luckily most ISA cards have been document here pretty well

Thanks for the ISA sound card recommendations. I will check out what is available and also study various opions about them. You have also a point that another win 98se righ might be necessary.
So far the only game I had troubles with is Deus Ex. All the other games ran nice on my athlon with nice looking effects.

stef80 wrote on 2025-03-20, 11:06:
predator_085 wrote on 2025-03-19, 12:13:

@steff80 Thanks for showing your system. Elitegroup and SIS are 2 companies I have not heard much about but price wise the K7S6A looks quite interesting. As you have recommended i will check out the videos from Phil about the boards based on the SIS chipset. I also need to learn more about the geod cpu.

If you're from EU, I see somebody offering some new-old-stock boards. Be warned, some capacitors may still be bad/bulging even though the board was never used. One under the AGP slot looks suspicious.
EDIT: Other boards.

Thanks for the info about board offers. It is clear that I am even if they are described as new a careful inspection of every part of the board is mandatory. In general the K7s6a looks promising.

In case I should decide to take advanced athlon path for pential win98se rig nr 2 the k7s6a could be the right pick.

Reply 38 of 42, by Delerium

User metadata
Rank Newbie
Rank
Newbie

The Athlon 700 was the last Athlon to feature a 1/2 L2 cache divider, which placed the processor's 512 KB of L2 cache running at 350 MHz, the highest L2 cache speed of the original Athlon.

The Athlon 750 – 850 featured a 2/5 L2 cache divider that resulted in L2 cache speeds ranging from 300 MHz to 340 MHz and the 900 – 1 GHz parts boast a 1/3 L2 cache divider that kept the L2 cache frequency between 300 MHz and 333 MHz.

Reply 39 of 42, by predator_085

User metadata
Rank Member
Rank
Member
Delerium wrote on 2025-03-30, 06:39:

The Athlon 700 was the last Athlon to feature a 1/2 L2 cache divider, which placed the processor's 512 KB of L2 cache running at 350 MHz, the highest L2 cache speed of the original Athlon.

The Athlon 750 – 850 featured a 2/5 L2 cache divider that resulted in L2 cache speeds ranging from 300 MHz to 340 MHz and the 900 – 1 GHz parts boast a 1/3 L2 cache divider that kept the L2 cache frequency between 300 MHz and 333 MHz.

That is interesting. I was not aware of the technical details.

@all I tested some more games and the athlon 700mhz is good enough for most of the windows 98 games I want to play and enjoy.

I will only upgrad the sound cards and get an ISA to cart to turn the rig into a windows 98SE/Dos system.

For the second planned rig (like I have mentioned above) I decided to lean more towards windows XP.