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EAX appreciation thread

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Reply 380 of 433, by UCyborg

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I didn't mean to replace it permanently, just to mess with EAX in games, compare various combinations on different operating systems. Use one card for one period, other for one period. Yeah, a bit clunky...unless I treat myself a new PC and put the newer card in the new PC. 😁 IDK, I'm in a bit of an existential crisis, don't really know what I want.

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Reply 381 of 433, by Joseph_Joestar

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UCyborg wrote on 2025-04-04, 21:34:

I didn't mean to replace it permanently, just to mess with EAX in games, compare various combinations on different operating systems. Use one card for one period, other for one period. Yeah, a bit clunky...unless I treat myself a new PC and put the newer card in the new PC. 😁 IDK, I'm in a bit of an existential crisis, don't really know what I want.

If you want to play around with EAX, I would suggest getting a cheap Core 2 Duo LGA775 system and installing WinXP there. Possibly also Win7 if you want to experiment with ALchemy.

That way, you will have access to both PCIe and PCI slots, so you can choose between either flavor of X-Fi and Audigy cards. Personally, I would go for a PCIe X-Fi Titanium OEM (SB0880) if you can get it cheap. These are usually a bit easier to source than the Fatal1ty versions, and don't cost as much as the higher end stuff.

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Reply 382 of 433, by DeadOfKnight

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UCyborg wrote on 2025-04-04, 09:53:

So I'd have to remove AE-5 Plus to be able to install Rx in this computer.

Creative Labs makes better external sound cards now anyway. I'd ditch the AE-5 for a G6.

Reply 383 of 433, by badmojo

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I bought a Sound Blaster Rx recently so that I could compare it to my X-Fi Titanium Fatal1ty - comparing sound cards is fun. CMSS is great on both and I personally haven't been able to notice any difference between them - I've used 2 different pairs of decent quality headphones for testing. Far Cry 2 has been the main game I've tested with because it seems to have a solid 3D sound implementation, and the difference surround sound makes to the experience is really significant.

So yes as discussed the Rx doesn't have the Elevation Filter / MacroFX stuff but I couldn't perceive any difference without it - perhaps Far Cry 2 just didn't implement it well. OpenMW supports OpenAL and I swear that the insect noises sound like they're coming from up in the trees on both cards, but this could of course just be my brain making assumptions.

At the moment I'm leaning towards the Rx having a slightly richer sound, and of course it's brand new as opposed to second hand and 15 years old. But again, this could just be my brain tricking me into preferring the thing that I most recently spent money on 😁

Both are great options. I'm using Daniel_K's drivers on Windows 10 for what it's worth.

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Reply 384 of 433, by Joseph_Joestar

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badmojo wrote on 2025-04-05, 00:53:

So yes as discussed the Rx doesn't have the Elevation Filter / MacroFX stuff but I couldn't perceive any difference without it - perhaps Far Cry 2 just didn't implement it well.

The differences that these two settings make are easier to perceive when using headphones (standard stereo ones) instead of speakers. Also, it seems to work best in EAX 5.0 games like Prey, Battlefield 2 or Battlefield 2142. In such games, select "Headphones" for your speaker settings, check the "Synchronize with Control Panel" box, and leave both MacroFX and Elevation Filter on "Auto". Of course, the card needs to be in Game Mode as well.

file.php?id=214080&mode=view

In older (pre EAX 5.0) games, you may instead want to manually set MacroFX and Elevation Filter to "On". I have tested this in Thief 2 and Unreal Tournament '99, and I could hear a difference between having these settings On vs. Off, especially with regards to elevation. This was under WinXP on my X-Fi Titanium Fatal1ty (SB0886), in case it matters.

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Reply 385 of 433, by badmojo

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Thanks yes I had all those things covered except for specifically setting MacroFX and Elevation Filter to 'On'. I've put the X-Fi back in and set those and maybe I can hear a difference with regards to the elevation? Hard to say. It's probably a moot point for me anyway because I can't wear headphones all the time, and I can't justify 5.1's right now either (I'm eyeing off some Logitech Z906's). CMSS still increases the sound stage a lot and provides a decent surround sound effect with my trusty Logitech Z623's, but yeah it's better with headphones.

Something else I noticed fiddling around with the X-Fi again is that it detected that I'd plugged headphones into the HD Audio connect jack on the case and automatically muted the speakers, where the Rx didn't do that. Also, Far Cry 2 sounds wrong with the default Alchemy settings and I had reduce the 'Buffers' setting to fix it. Going too low with this value with the Rx caused the game to crash after a while, but this wasn't a problem with the X-Fi. I was able to bring it down to the level I wanted without the crashing.

So the X-Fi is back in now.

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Reply 386 of 433, by Joseph_Joestar

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badmojo wrote on 2025-04-05, 05:53:

It's probably a moot point for me anyway because I can't wear headphones all the time

Yeah, I too find wearing headphones over an extended time period to be uncomfortable. But they are definitively the best for testing positional audio.

As mentioned before, this scene at the very start of the Verdun map in Battlefield 2142 is my go to for showcasing elevation. With X-Fi CMSS-3D Headphone, you can hear exactly where the ship is located relative to your position, and it sounds really cool when it flies directly over your head.

In older games, the elevation effect might not be as pronounced, but I was able to get some good results in UT99 on the Deck16 map. For testing purposes, start that map without any bots and turn down the music. Then, pick up a rocket launcher, stand on the bridge at the center of the map, and fire a grenade (right click) into the area with the sludge directly under the bridge. You should be able to hear the explosion coming from below you. Similarly, if you fire a rocket (left click) at one of the walls above you (or directly at the ceiling), then you should hear the impact sound coming from there.

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Reply 387 of 433, by Dimos

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A usefull recap about pc positional audio found on a comment here: https://www.reddit.com/r/pcgaming/comments/40 … great_pc_audio/

It reads as follows:

Just want to correct a few things - OpenAL came much, much later in the history of sound cards. Back in the day there were two 3 […]
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Just want to correct a few things - OpenAL came much, much later in the history of sound cards. Back in the day there were two 3d sound standards - A3D from Aureal, and DirectSound3D. EAX was an effects layer on top of DirectSound3D. They were all roughly equal in terms of HRTFs and positioning, but where they differed was environmental modeling (reverb.)

A3D was the first 3D sound standard, a full top to bottom proprietary solution from aureal. A3D 1.0 was pretty basic, but A3D 2.0's and it's primary distinguishing feature was wavetracing (think raytracing for sound). It was undeniably the better tech, but the cards were more expensive, fewer games supported it, and it had a bigger impact on system performance.

DS3D was roughly equivalent to A3D 1.0, and didn't support wavetracing. But it did positioning well, and that was its primary job - technically it was just an abstraction layer that passed the positional data up to the sound card. What the card did with that data was it's own business, whether its HRTFs, multichannel, etc. Pretty much everything supported basic DS3D, including Aureal cards.

But it didn't do reverb. That's where EAX came in. Instead of calculating the actual waves, it just modeled the reverb statistically - kind of like the reverb presets in a sound card control panel or AV receiver, but somewhat more sophisticated. Less sophisticated than A3D for sure, but it was cheaper, much easier to implement and basically had zero performance impact - and to my ears it sounded much better than A3D 2.0. And it was an "open" standard as well - other companies could implement EAX (up to version 3.0). Even aureal cards supported it (poorly). Believe it or not even NVIDIA had a motherboard chipset called nforce that did really good 3D audio and EAX.

It should be pretty obvious why EAX "won" that war. I think Aureal could have done great things, but they were ahead of their time in some ways. A3D 3.0, which never came out, was going to be awesome. Anyway, eventually aureal caved in under the pressure of creative's lawsuits. Creative bought their remnants, and eventually moved up to EAX 4.0 and 5.0, which was for creative cards only. It was more advanced than A3D 2.0 in some ways, but still simpler in other ways. One could make the argument that creative's monopoly killed the market for 3D audio, but IMO most people just didn't give enough of a shit about sound to support a dedicated sound card market when onboard became "good enough". And with onboard sound becoming the predominant sound device, CPUs being generally fast enough to handle the processing, and Microsoft being distracted by the xbox - MS decided to simplify things and cut out DS3D. They didn't force out or put anything in the way of hardware 3D audio, they just dropped support for it in DirectX. And since EAX was built on top of DS3D, killing DS3D effectively killed EAX, and killing EAX effectively killed 3D audio.

Of course this was pulling the rug out from under creative's feet, and trying to prop up the little known and used OpenAL was the dying gasp - Creative's attempt to salvage hardware 3D audio. And very few games used it. And that was like 10 years ago. Creative didn't refuse to use 3D audio and HRTFs - they wanted nothing more in the world than for people to use that stuff....but no one else did. To this day their sound cards support all of that, and simply no one is interested in using any of it. They reason they implemented downmixing is because they had to, because that's the way the entire industry was headed.

HRTFs are still everywhere though, although its primarily in the form of downmixing 7.1/5.1 to stereo on headphones. And TBH, it doesn't sound that much worse that "real" 3D. You lost the height cues, but they were never that great to begin with. HRTFs were never fully convincing anyway, because they were only half of the solution - the other primary way your brain locates sounds is how sound sources move when your head turns, even a fraction of a degree. There are pretty expensive and crazy ways to do this with standard headphones (smyth realizer), but with VR it's kind of a freebie that comes along with the head tracking. HRTFs alone = meh. HRTFs + Head Tracking = OMG real.

But at this point, CPUs are so powerful that HRTFs are trivial to do in software. So either way we would have reached the point where sound cards were obsolete. Maybe Microsoft jumped the gun by ripping it out with Vista, but at that point Creative was really the only one left. And they did everything they could to stave off the inevitable death of 3D sound cards. Yes, something was lost in that transition, but overall sound is WAY better than it was in the 90s. And IMO the sound blaster Z still has the best sounding downmixing solution out there, so they're still doing what they can. So cut them a little slack - yeah, they were really dirty at times, but the walls were closing in on that entire sector. In my eyes they've always made the best sound cards - long before 3D audio was a thing (SB16, AWE32, AWE64), while 3D audio was a thing (SB Live, Audigy, X-Fi), and after 3D audio was a thing (X-Fi, SB-Z). If anything they've been trying to keep the dream alive long after everyone else moved on.

I maybe slightly disagree on a couple of things, but it is a usefull read.

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Reply 388 of 433, by Joseph_Joestar

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Dimos wrote on 2025-04-05, 10:51:

A usefull recap about pc positional audio found on a comment here:

That's a pretty solid write up. It's missing a few minor things like Sensaura, which was another contemporary 3D audio solution. Sensaura could support A3D 1.0 and EAX 1.0 (possibly also EAX 2.0 in later versions) and it sounded pretty decent. It also had some form of "chaotic wavetracing" which was different from Aureal's stuff, but served a similar purpose. As noted previously, it seems that Creative used some of the Sensaura and Aureal tech for the X-Fi version of CMSS-3D.

Like that redditor said, it's too bad that OpenAL never got a wider adoption, since games which use it for EAX work equally well on WinXP and Vista+ when using an Audigy or X-Fi sound card. No emulation there, just a straight pass through from the game to the hardware, without the need to rely on DirectSound3D. To clarify, I'm talking about native OpenAL games like Quake 4 and Prey.

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Reply 389 of 433, by ott

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Microsoft is often accused of killing EAX.
But I think Creative knew about upcoming changes to Windows and DirectX, otherwise in 2002 they wouldn't have approached Loki Software to take over OpenAL.
Someone on Wikipedia wrote that the DirectSound was deprecated since DirectX 8. If this is true, then Creative had enough time to switch to the OpenAL API.

Reply 390 of 433, by Joseph_Joestar

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ott wrote on 2025-04-05, 14:29:

Someone on Wikipedia wrote that the DirectSound was deprecated since DirectX 8.

I think the writer of that Wikipedia article misunderstood what happened.

To be specific, DirectSound3D was renamed into "DirectX Audio" around DX8 (which came out in November of 2000) but people just continued calling it DirectSound3D. Whatever its official name had been, the API was still present and working fine under WinXP, until it got nuked by Vista.

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Reply 391 of 433, by ott

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Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2025-04-05, 14:40:
ott wrote on 2025-04-05, 14:29:

Someone on Wikipedia wrote that the DirectSound was deprecated since DirectX 8.

I think the writer of that Wikipedia article misunderstood what happened.

Deprecated status is not last of any API's lifecycle. It warns that this functionality will not be properly supported in the future. Then it becomes legacy or finally removed. So in DirectX 10 the DS3D hardware buffer was removed.

Btw, I found EAX guide for QA - EAX 3.0 (2003) already supported OpenAL, Creative was already taking steps in this way.

Reply 392 of 433, by Joseph_Joestar

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ott wrote on 2025-04-05, 15:38:

Deprecated status is not last of any API's lifecycle. It warns that this functionality will not be properly supported in the future.

The full quote from that Wikipedia article is: "DirectSound3D (DS3D): 3D sounds API (Deprecated since DirectX 8 in favor of XAudio2 and XACT3)".

Neither XAudio2 nor XACT3 existed in November of 2000 when DirectX 8 was released.

Btw, I found EAX guide for QA - EAX 3.0 (2003) already supported OpenAL, Creative was already taking steps in this way.

Not surprising, as Unreal 2 was released in early 2003, and it had OpenAL support. Around that time, Microsoft was working on "Longhorn" which is probably why Creative started to favor OpenAL. There's an interesting video by an ex-Microsoft engineer explaining what project "Longhorn" was originally supposed to be, and which of its components ultimately ended up in Vista.

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Reply 393 of 433, by UCyborg

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Screenshot of Drakan: Order of the Flame's level editor, showing the entry to the small cave on the first level where the triggers are positioned to trigger specific EAX presets when players walks into them, the one on the interior triggers "Cave", the one on the exterior triggers "Plain":

LdQiKzl.png

And these are presets that this game's engine exposes:

VH8hLXC.png

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Reply 394 of 433, by Joseph_Joestar

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UCyborg wrote on 2025-04-05, 17:00:

Screenshot of Drakan: Order of the Flame's level editor, showing the entry to the small cave on the first level where the triggers are positioned to trigger specific EAX presets when players walks into them, the one on the interior triggers "Cave", the one on the exterior triggers "Plain"

That sounds about right for an EAX 1.0 game, and Drakan falls into that category. Occlusion and Obstruction weren't implemented yet, as those are EAX 2.0 features. Neither were Environmental Morphing and Filtering, both of which got introduced in EAX 3.0. And not to mention the EAX 4.0 and 5.0 specific stuff.

If you want to hear more fancy uses of EAX, try something like Thief: Deadly Shadows. In that game, sound propagation works in some really interesting ways. For example, during the first proper level (after the tutorial) there's a section where you're heading down the stairs of a castle toward the armory. As you descend the stairs and approach the exit, you start hearing muffled footsteps of the guard patrolling the armory, which gradually get louder. However, when you get close to an open window, and before you actually reach the exit to the armory, the guard's footsteps become a lot clearer, since there is no obstruction in the way. There are many other examples of awesome sound design in that game.

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Reply 395 of 433, by Dimos

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I agree that the specific passage from Wikipedia is wrong (or phrased incorrectly at least). DirectSound was definitely not deprecated since directx 8. That was before even Windows XP got released. Also Longhorn had two main development phases, the second one started sometime in 2004 when the whole project was reset and started from scratch.

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Reply 396 of 433, by UCyborg

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Thanks for the suggestion, never played any Thief games before.

Arthur Schopenhauer wrote:

A man can be himself only so long as he is alone; and if he does not love solitude, he will not love freedom; for it is only when he is alone that he is really free.

Reply 397 of 433, by Joseph_Joestar

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Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2024-11-29, 11:33:

So I'm guessing they did implement some EAX functionality in the Icewind Dale games, though how well that works is up for debate. It's certainly much less noticeable than in the Baldur's Gate 1&2, which share the same engine.

I found another interview with the Icewind Dale developers on Creative's old EAX website. Relevant bit:

Charles Deenen (Audio Director) wrote:

EAX was used to enhance dialog with the use of a little bit of reverb where needed.

I think that's the closest we'll get to understanding the extremely subtle EAX implementation in Icewind Dale.

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Reply 398 of 433, by DeadOfKnight

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Looks like the Enhanced Editions got cut off from enabling EAX.

Reply 399 of 433, by Joseph_Joestar

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DeadOfKnight wrote on 2025-04-07, 18:27:

Looks like the Enhanced Editions got cut off from enabling EAX.

Yeah, that's one of the reasons why I prefer replaying the original games under Win9x using (mostly) period correct hardware.

While EAX is very subtle in both Icewind Dale games, it's used much more prominently in Baldur's Gate 1&2 as well as Planescape Torment. For example, in Baldur's Gate 2 the voices of your characters echo appropriately in caves and dungeons, while monsters lurking behind walls and closed doors have occlusion effects. You also get 5.1 surround sound when EAX is enabled, which is particularly noticeable during spell casting.

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