Only you can say whether it is an important part of your collection to hang on to, or if you still have the space. Personally, I think every generation of MoBo and CPU has something going for it, I'm currently raising funds to convert my garage into a workshop so I can get my massive collection of parts and cases (plus, of course, complete systems) out of the small bungalow I live in. I'm surrounded by at least a couple of tons of PC stuff - need to have space to test it all in my twilight years, so I can decide which parts from each generation are most important for me to keep 😀 Also got to trim the collection, as I won't always be able to work with it all, and the time may come soon when my relatives will have to dispose of what's left 😀

Off the top of my head, I can't think of any advantage an AGP/PCI-only Pentium III system would have over a Pentium 4 system.

Even if targeting a specific level of Pentium III performance, it would still probably make more sense to build an older PIII system with ISA slots for greater versatility.

It's really down to what you want to play. There's a pretty big gap between a 233MMX and the slowest P4, and some games don't work well with slowdown tools.

But it's also likely you'd never hit something, and you could always play on the 233MMX at a reduced frame rate. My systems go 233MMX and then an Athon 64 that can be down clocked to 500Mhz via multipliers in the BIOS.

If you're fine playing on DOSBox and SCUMMVM, you might not need any old systems. But if you want to keep old systems around 1 or 2 likely won't do it. The 233MMX will give you early DOS through Win95 and the start of 3D accelerators. Then there's the need for a Win98 machine for the tail end of SVGA 640x480 DOS games, as well as the rise of Direct3D. And finally an XP machine, because there's a lot that has issues on modern machines. That along with a modern PC will get you most things as long as you aren't looking to play XT games that can't handle anything but the 4.77Mhz clock.

Shponglefan wrote on 2025-04-10, 23:28:

Off the top of my head, I can't think of any advantage an AGP/PCI-only Pentium III system would have over a Pentium 4 system.

Probably power and heat.

SScorpio wrote on 2025-04-10, 23:37:

It's really down to what you want to play. There's a pretty big gap between a 233MMX and the slowest P4, and some games don't work well with slowdown tools.

But it's also likely you'd never hit something, and you could always play on the 233MMX at a reduced frame rate. My systems go 233MMX and then an Athon 64 that can be down clocked to 500Mhz via multipliers in the BIOS.

If you're fine playing on DOSBox and SCUMMVM, you might not need any old systems. But if you want to keep old systems around 1 or 2 likely won't do it. The 233MMX will give you early DOS through Win95 and the start of 3D accelerators. Then there's the need for a Win98 machine for the tail end of SVGA 640x480 DOS games, as well as the rise of Direct3D. And finally an XP machine, because there's a lot that has issues on modern machines. That along with a modern PC will get you most things as long as you aren't looking to play XT games that can't handle anything but the 4.77Mhz clock.

Recently i got all my dos games working fine apart from Descent, on my P3 440bx 450mhz, I also played around with a few early Win95 titles and they are also working, except for Interstate 76 which always causes me problems no matter the system.

So in your opinion were does a Non ISA Socket 370 stand in that?

Thanks for your input.

I more think the other way around, I dont like nor see the point of a P4 system with any socket.
Win98 and all of its associated games play well on a P3, I prefer the IDE drives and if you want to max out the power of Win98 then you are better off with an E6700, which will rinse the living hell out of a P4 and use less energy doing it.

When I wanted the middle ground I went with AMD Athlon XP, as most people did back in the day. People went with a P4 as it offered a little bit more performance over the Athlon but for a lot more money, but that doesnt count any more as the E6700 killed it dead dead dead.

So what with the retro feel of P3 and the power of a Core2 on skt 775 what is the point in those little space heaters?

ElectroSoldier wrote on 2025-04-11, 01:09:

I more think the other way around, I dont like nor see the point of a P4 system with any socket.
Win98 and all of its associated games play well on a P3, I prefer the IDE drives and if you want to max out the power of Win98 then you are better off with an E6700, which will rinse the living hell out of a P4 and use less energy doing it.

Industrial Pentium 4 motherboards w/ ISA slots make for fantastic all-in-one retro builds that can cover native DOS through early Win XP. And D0 Cedar Mill Processors have a TDW of 65W, same as the E6700.

JaKSLaP wrote on 2025-04-11, 00:37:

Recently i got all my dos games working fine apart from Descent, on my P3 440bx 450mhz, I also played around with a few early Win95 titles and they are also working, except for Interstate 76 which always causes me problems no matter the system.

So in your opinion were does a Non ISA Socket 370 stand in that?

Thanks for your input.

In that scenario, it doesn't sound like there is any point to it. You could always slot in a P2, or a faster P3 if you really needed to zero in on a certain speed. But 233MMX to P3 450 then up to a P4 should cover most scenarios.

Did you try one of the framerate limiting patches for Interstate 76? The game has issues with higher that 24-30fps. You can also use dgVoodoo if you aren't using an 3DFX card, that might given more state performance.

One thing that is bad on pentium 4 and later is AGP only supporting 1.5v. There are some super early pentium 4 chipsets from via/sis with universal AGP, but it can be easier to get decent pentium 3 pc.

https://www.playtool.com/pages/agpcompat/agp.html
Socket 423/478 Motherboards with Universal AGP Slot

Although I really like the socket 370 platform, it's in my opinion hard to find use cases for non-ISA equipped motherboards, because socket A exists... if it lacks ISA even tualatin enabled motherboards can easily and cheaply be replaced by early and mid production socket A boards with the KT133A (some of witch actually come with ISA), KT266 or KT333 chipsets. All of these support universal AGP 4x witch guarantees compatibility with older video cards, and can run anything from a 500mhz Duron to (in some cases) fast bartons.

Socket 370 without ISA is mostly irrelevant due to existence of Athlon XP, which can be both much faster and much slower with unlocked multiplier options. And Pentium 4 is overall better platform.

It's all a question of why you're into retro computing.

If you objectively want to cover as many software bases as possible, a P4 or AXP AGP system is superior for Win9x to any So370. However that's focusing purely on hardware as a facilitator for software. If your interest is more related to the hardware, it's not a matter of which hardware can run most software, but which software can run best on my beloved hardware. And then So370 makes as much sense as any other platform.

Such pure nostalgia aside, I have the distinct feeling So370 systems, motherboards in particular, are more durable than So478/SoA boards. I'm seeing alarming numbers of the latter failing, usually due to something going catastrophically wrong in the power delivery/VRM parts of the board. The much higher currents drawn by those CPUs are probably the reason, and capacitor plague doesn't help either. I don't think I've had a single 1995-2000 board die on me over the past 5 years unless I did something very, very wrong. Conversely I've had multiple 2000-2005 boards crap out without warning, even from well-regarded brands (Asus P4P800... are there actually any working examples left?)

Shponglefan wrote on 2025-04-11, 01:25:

ElectroSoldier wrote on 2025-04-11, 01:09:

I more think the other way around, I dont like nor see the point of a P4 system with any socket.
Win98 and all of its associated games play well on a P3, I prefer the IDE drives and if you want to max out the power of Win98 then you are better off with an E6700, which will rinse the living hell out of a P4 and use less energy doing it.

Industrial Pentium 4 motherboards w/ ISA slots make for fantastic all-in-one retro builds that can cover native DOS through early Win XP. And D0 Cedar Mill Processors have a TDW of 65W, same as the E6700.

Yeah I read that so I tried one, spent a lot more than I would like to admit to for one on ebay, I set it up and fired up DOS and still needed to use the same old tools to slow it down to play DOS games on it, so with regards to DOS gaming it was no different to my E6700 (in fact with regards to DOS its no different to every other CPU that isnt a 386 or 486, My T5720 with a Geode 1Ghz and a Elsa Gladiac 511 plays DOS games just as well as a 5775C and a Titan XP). And WinXP runs even better on a my Devils Canyon.

Cedar Mill is getting towards the end of the P4 line. And if the 65W TDP is the only plus it has, the E6700 will out perform the Celeron D 365. The TDP of 65W is its rated maximum, not what it uses all the time. Of course the Celeron goes down too but if that is your only plus to go with a Celeron then you have not only gotten to the bottom of the barrel you are starting to search somewhere underneath it because the reason to go with a Celeron D 365 is to max out Win98 performance, in which case you should be going with an E6700 in Win98 and WinXP or even if you are just thinking of one of them.

I don't get the obsession with ISA on a Pentium III. If you want a fast ISA system, an Athlon XP and a KT133A motherboard will do the trick. If you just want to use ISA cards, a 486 or (Super) Socket 7 build will provide better compatibility and higher flexibility.

My Pentium III system primarily serves to fill a performance gap between my K6-2 and Pentium 4 machines.

The only reason I can see to have an ISA obsession is for sound. You really cant beat an ISA sound card for the old DOS games. There are other uses of course but sound seems to be top of peoples retro list.

But of course if you are looking at DOS gaming then you will need to run some kind of tool to slow it down at some point which makes the all powerful CPU you built it all around a mute point.
Dual booting is the only reason I see. Running it with DOS, Win98, WinXP...

Depends... you only need to slow the system down if you want one DOS machine to do everything. However if you split it in half, with a slower 486 with Turbo button to easily get down to XT speeds and a late P3-era system for the last DOS games (Quake...) the latter doesn't need slowing down, but ISA audio is still a thing even with the very last DOS stuff,

A Socket 370 morherboard, I would choose it if it has ISA slots. Otherwise, if looking for PCI/AGP only board, then it's better to go with Socket 478 or 775 P4 Mobo.

The main reason of having the P3 Socket 370 with ISA is to have a very fast CPU running Windows 98SE, while also having the ability to run DOS natively with native ISA sound support. Best of both worlds. Add on aTNT2 Ultra with Voodoo2 SLI, and you have a complete system.

Are there no PCI sound cards that support DOS?

There are many PCI sound cards that have driver workarounds to play sound in DOS, as long as the system allows access to internal ISA bus.