I think Caligari Truespace 2 runs in Windows 3.1. I am not sure what export formats it offers though

Are you willing to use NT 3.x instead? It shares the UI of Windows 3.x. That might open more possibilities, I would imagine most serious CAD applications for Windows were targeting NT. More seriouser applications probably just ran on UNIX back then.

shamino wrote on 2025-04-03, 22:39:

Are you willing to use NT 3.x instead? It shares the UI of Windows 3.x. That might open more possibilities, I would imagine most serious CAD applications for Windows were targeting NT. More seriouser applications probably just ran on UNIX back then.

The machine I want to use doesn't have 12mb RAM which I think is the min spec.

When I 1st started in 3D studio it ran in dos, later it was renamed 3D studio Max and ran in win nt.

squelch41 wrote on 2025-04-03, 23:08:

shamino wrote on 2025-04-03, 22:39:

Are you willing to use NT 3.x instead? It shares the UI of Windows 3.x. That might open more possibilities, I would imagine most serious CAD applications for Windows were targeting NT. More seriouser applications probably just ran on UNIX back then.

The machine I want to use doesn't have 12mb RAM which I think is the min spec.

Hi, what kind of machine is it, an IBM/AT? A 286? I had one with 4 MB. My dad had a 386 with 16 MB..
Or maybe it's possible to upgrade RAM somehow? 😟

Did Micrografx Simply 3D worked on Windows 3.x? I don't remember...

I can only think about 3D Studio (worked in DOS, but I think it required 386+) and POV (it doesn't do modelling, but it worked in DOS). Also, I remember that Rhinoceros 3D was used as modeller for POV, so earlier versions might work in DOS.

Jo22 wrote on 2025-04-04, 00:40:

squelch41 wrote on 2025-04-03, 23:08:

shamino wrote on 2025-04-03, 22:39:

Are you willing to use NT 3.x instead? It shares the UI of Windows 3.x. That might open more possibilities, I would imagine most serious CAD applications for Windows were targeting NT. More seriouser applications probably just ran on UNIX back then.

The machine I want to use doesn't have 12mb RAM which I think is the min spec.

Hi, what kind of machine is it, an IBM/AT? A 286? I had one with 4 MB. My dad had a 386 with 16 MB..
Or maybe it's possible to upgrade RAM somehow? 😟

It's a 386 laptop with 4mb ram. Uses proprietary ram modules sadly so cant upgrade ram

Autocad R12 for win3.1 would be my best bet it would seem - but needs AME (advanced modeling extensions).
Can find the software but not the AME key sadly
(https://archive.org/details/autodesk-auto-cad-windows-v-12)

RetroPCCupboard wrote on 2025-04-03, 22:17:

I think Caligari Truespace 2 runs in Windows 3.1. I am not sure what export formats it offers though

That runs - only outputs 2 formats though in anything other than it's own format.

squelch41 wrote on 2025-04-03, 21:51:

I know it's a very silly idea, but I'd really like to try and model something in win 3.1 and then 3d print that design - just for fun.

No no, not at all silly. Windows 3.x was the best there was on PCs in 1990.
There had been a lot of 3D modelling/raytracing software for Windows 3.0, 3.1 and NT 3.5x.

For example, Highlight for Windows (Windows 3.1 raytracing/animation package), Highlight Professional (same, but for Win32s/WinNT),
both in German sadly (they originated on Amiga/DOS).

Edit: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XTmZomYRIwI

Or let's take the experimental Windows 3.x version of AutoCAD R11, which was an extra to AutoCAD R11 DOS.

It's a 386 laptop with 4mb ram. Uses proprietary ram modules sadly so cant upgrade ram

That's unfortunate, for CAD I mean. AutoCAD in early 90s ran on something like a 486DX50 with 16MB of RAM.

But that being said, doesn't Windows 3.1x have virtual memory in 386 Enhanced-Mode?
The 3D modelling software should run, even if runs very poorly.

Edit: Here's a sample picture from the internet.

Jo22 wrote on 2025-04-13, 21:55:

No no, not at all silly. Windows 3.x was the best there was on PCs in 1990. There had been a lot of 3D modelling/raytracing soft […]
Show full quote

squelch41 wrote on 2025-04-03, 21:51:

I know it's a very silly idea, but I'd really like to try and model something in win 3.1 and then 3d print that design - just for fun.

No no, not at all silly. Windows 3.x was the best there was on PCs in 1990.
There had been a lot of 3D modelling/raytracing software for Windows 3.0, 3.1 and NT 3.5x.
For example, Highlight for Windows (Windows 3.1 raytracing/animation package), Highlight Professional (same, but for Win32s/WinNT), both in German sadly (they originated on Amiga/DOS).
Or let's take the experimental Windows 3.x version of AutoCAD R11, which was an extra to AutoCAD R11 DOS.

It's a 386 laptop with 4mb ram. Uses proprietary ram modules sadly so cant upgrade ram

That's unfortunate, for CAD I mean. AutoCAD in early 90s ran on something like a 486DX50 with 16MB of RAM.

But that being said, doesn't Windows 3.1x have virtual memory in 386 Enhanced-Mode?
The 3D modelling software should run, even if runs very poorly.

Turbocad 3 runs fine using virtual mem on my 386 but is 2d only.
Auotcad R12 runs on my 486, and I am copying it over to my 386, but without the AME addition, I cant 3d model with it sadly

squelch41 wrote on 2025-04-13, 22:05:

Turbocad 3 runs fine using virtual mem on my 386 but is 2d only.

Hi, has some 3D since v1 released in 1990, but v5 made a big step forward.

"TurboCAD gained 3D functionality in at least 1990 and a fuller implementation with v5 when ‘Model Space’, ‘Work Plane’, ‘Camera’, and 3D Draggers appeared.
Version 6 saw the integration of the ACIS solid modeling kernel and the LightWorks photorealistic rendering engine. "

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TurboCAD#3D_CAD … product_history

squelch41 wrote on 2025-04-13, 22:05:

Auotcad R12 runs on my 486, and I am copying it over to my 386, but without the AME addition, I cant 3d model with it sadly

Ah, I see. Didn't know that. I'm not very familiar with that extensions stuff.
We have AutoCAD in the house for ages, also because my grandfather was an architect.
That was long ago though and he has passed away for so long.

That means the version I playfully "I grew up with" is well 40 years old, as well.
It already has 3D functionality, but it's rudimentary.
It also has "advanced drafting extensions" already. Woo-hoo!

Okay, I'm more of an AutoSketch / 2D person, I guess! 😅
For the later AutoCAD versions, I would have to ask my dad or one of his friends.
He surely had still seen the versions from late 80s, at least. R9/R10?

I recall he had said he sold 486 PCs to CAD/CAM customers.
So R11 ('90) might have been already around in the CAD business at the time,
because the i486 CPU was announced '89, but available '90 onwards.
R12 must have been the latest AutoCAD version in '92/93, thus.

squelch41 wrote on 2025-04-04, 06:24:

Jo22 wrote on 2025-04-04, 00:40:

squelch41 wrote on 2025-04-03, 23:08:

The machine I want to use doesn't have 12mb RAM which I think is the min spec.

Hi, what kind of machine is it, an IBM/AT? A 286? I had one with 4 MB. My dad had a 386 with 16 MB..
Or maybe it's possible to upgrade RAM somehow? 😟

It's a 386 laptop with 4mb ram. Uses proprietary ram modules sadly so cant upgrade ram

Does that machine have a (floating point) math coprocessor, such as a 387, or a socket for one ?

Lacking that, even software like AutoCAD release 10 for DOS from 1988, which needs a coprocessor (contrary to what the WIKIpedia article says) will not run. I know this from memory, and reference material from the era corroborates this.

EDIT: AutoCAD release 9 was the first release that required a coprocessor for the DOS version . https://web.archive.org/web/20041012150855/ht … e_9_history.htm

https://archive.org/details/isbn_978088022288 … p?q=Coprocessor

darry wrote on 2025-04-14, 01:11:

squelch41 wrote on 2025-04-04, 06:24:

Jo22 wrote on 2025-04-04, 00:40:

Hi, what kind of machine is it, an IBM/AT? A 286? I had one with 4 MB. My dad had a 386 with 16 MB..
Or maybe it's possible to upgrade RAM somehow? 😟

It's a 386 laptop with 4mb ram. Uses proprietary ram modules sadly so cant upgrade ram

Does that machine have a (floating point) math coprocessor, such as a 387, or a socket for one ?

Yes, has a 387

Try the earliest 3d Studio for DOS you can, and pray the 386 takes it. The .3ds file format was fairly supported as 3D packages started to pick up in the late 90s. There was a Win9x program that supported import/export of a big number of 3D formats, so .3ds will definitelly be one of them (forgot the program's name). I believe also later AutoCAD releases directly supported 3ds object import.

The back of the box on the Matrox Impression Plus 220 (ISA 2D/3D accelerator card) says:

DynaView DOS, AutoCAD R11, R12, Microstation 4.0 & 5.0, 3D Studio, CADKey

squelch41 wrote on 2025-04-13, 21:34:

Autocad R12 for win3.1 would be my best bet it would seem - but needs AME (advanced modeling extensions).
Can find the software but not the AME key sadly
(https://archive.org/details/autodesk-auto-cad-windows-v-12)

Ha, well, I'm an idiot..
Guess what is in the file called "serial.no" ....

Nobody is perfect! 🙂

darry wrote on 2025-04-14, 01:11:

Lacking that, even software like AutoCAD release 10 for DOS from 1988, which needs a coprocessor (contrary to what the WIKIpedia article says) will not run. I know this from memory, and reference material from the era corroborates this.

EDIT: AutoCAD release 9 was the first release that required a coprocessor for the DOS version . [..]

Hi, thanks for the info, darry!

That would explain why my dad never said a word about newer AutoCAD releases.
The version I had was R5, I think, and R9/R10 wouldn't have run on a humble 286 PC of mine.
Well, not without an 80287 upgrade or an 8087 emulator (emul87), I suppose (80186/80286 and higher can catch FPU exceptions).

AutoSketch 2 was different here, I think.
Our retail version of AutoSketch had included two diskettes, one 8086 version and an 8087 version.
So it was up to the user to make the decision at installation time.

But AutoSketch was using a different code base, after all.
The GUI is much more modern, shares similarity with AutoShade utility.
AutoSketch 2 also was being bundled with drawing boards and mice, I think.
Version 3 added EMS support, which was very useful (I ran out of memory in v2 a lot of time).

Edit: There also were two notable Windows 3 versions of AutoSketch.
As far as I know, version 2 was the last good one, with the macro language.
Later versions share similarily mainly in by the name.

PS: To those without an FPU, Franke387 used to be a very good, very quick x87 emulator, which is now free.
http://icfs.de/english/franke387.html

Windows has its own FPU emulator/virtualizer, win87em.
On Windows 2.x it is win87em.exe.
On Windows 3.x it's renamed win87em.dll, but it's still an exe really.

It can be loaded in memory permanently, by manually adding it as exe to wini.ini:
"Keep WIN87EM.DLL always loaded in memory.
To have Program Manager (PROGMAN) or another Windows shell keep this in memory,
rename WIN87EM.DLL to be WIN87EM.EXE and place WIN87EM.EXE on the LOAD= line of the WIN.INI file."
https://www.betaarchive.com/wiki/index.php/Mi … _Archive/120182

Edited.

Edit: This is also interesting, and partially on-topic.
AutoCAD R11 and R12 had the title "AutoCAD 386", which implies 386 support.

So is it true that they can't run on a 286 anymore? That's a bummer.
My dad had a hot-rod 286 in 1989, with 4MB of RAM and Hercules.
Enough for running stuff such as Xenix, Minix, AutoCAD 2.x and R9/R10 which apparently had XMS support?!

Microsoft mentions the AutoCAD 386 name in another Knowledge Base article, too.

"AutoCAD 386 release 11 and 12 do not run with Windows NT because AutoCAD 386 requires DPMI version 1.0 and Windows NT supports version 0.9.
When you try to run AutoCAD 386 in a virtual machine, you receive the following Pharlap error message:

The 386 chip is currently executing in virtual 8086 mode under the control of another program. You must turn off this other program in order to use 386 DOS-Extender to run in protected mode."

https://www.betaarchive.com/wiki/index.php?ti … _Archive/101813

For OS/2, there's a workaround, though.
It uses NEWDX to update the Phar Lap 386|DOS-Extender in AutoCAD 386.
After being updated to version 2.6, the DOS-Extender, in addition to providing other features, allows AutoCAD 386 to use the XMS memory managed by Himem.sys.

"In order to upgrade the AutoCAD dos extender to work with DOSBOX, OS2 and other extended memory managers
(HIMEM.SYS, EMM386.EXE, QEMM.SYS), you need to install the NEWDX patch that can be found
in the OS2PCH.ZIP which can be downloaded from http://cd.textfiles.com/ems/emspro17/disk3/CADUTIL/
Extract the NEWDX.EXE, put it in the directory where ACAD.EXE is and run the command: NEWDX ACAD.EXE"

More info here.

On other hand, this means that the early R11 port to Windows 3.0 might have been using an 386 Protected-Mode Extender, too.
Something akin to Watcom's Win386 extender.

The prior OS/2 port of R10 likely was Protected-Mode ready already, I assume, but OS/2 1.x was still 16-Bit (except for a few parts, such as HPFS386 driver).

There's also a Xenix 386 port of R10, I think, but I can't find any screenshots.
That might have been 32-Bit already

"Another well known application which used Win386 was Autodesk’s AutoCAD R12 for Windows and the first release of AutoCAD LT (1993)."
Source: https://www.os2museum.com/wp/watcom-win386/

Exit: My apologies for the long post. It's night where I live and I got carried away!
But to be fair, this topic is somewhat fascinating!

Early AutoCAD on 386/486 systems has something to it, I think! It's that workstation feel, so exciting!
Similarily to how people in art/game development had used desktop Amigas as little workstations for running DPaint.

Windows 3.0 was essentially an cheap alternative to running the Unix version of AutoCAD on a minicomputer/unix workstation.

Edit: There was this Sun 80386 workstation from 1988, btw.
It had a full MS-DOS emulation environment with VGA graphics, it's being mentioned here
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun386i

Especially the upcoming Windows 3.1 was great upgrade because it had support by the early, accelerated ISA Super VGA cards:
The GUI accelerators/Windows accelerators/GDI accelerators.

There was an early Xenix 386 port of AutoCAD R10, but R11/R12/13 surely was also on IRIX in early 90s.
R13 was from '94, the pre-Windows 95 days in which Unix graphics workstations were at their peak.

Btw, did you know that IRIX 5.2/5.3 had a NetMeeting type of program (SGI InPerson)?
You could video chat via ISDN and a comparably quick network connection! So cool!
Here's a YouTube video about it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0u8Fb8l9Xr4