ElectroSoldier wrote on 2025-06-14, 20:40:

mkarcher wrote on 2025-06-14, 17:16:

Actually, an ISA sound card is both what you think and also what you found when looking for MIDI devices. A typical ISA sound ca […]
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ElectroSoldier wrote on 2025-06-14, 14:46:

an old ISA sound card isnt what I thought it was, that a MIDI device has its own sounds built into it and the signal sent from a game is more of a que to the sound card to play its own sounds.

Actually, an ISA sound card is both what you think and also what you found when looking for MIDI devices. A typical ISA sound card in a 90s game uses both capabilities. Sound effects in the game are usually made from pre-recorded samples that are played as-is by the sound card. On the other hand, old computers were not powerful enough to calculate background music in real-time, so for music playback, the sound card is instructed to generate "its own sounds" as you say. The Soundblaster 16 you are buying can do both, so no need to worry. The main issue about the music generation of the Soundblaster 16 is that it uses a quite simple mathematical model to "create its own sounds", while professional music synthesizer cards use recorded samples of physical instruments as "their own sounds".

Actually, the Soundblaster 16 can do three things:

1. It can play pre-recorded samples (but only one at a time)
2. It can calculate music using a simple mathematical model (FM synthesis)
3. It can send queued music data (in MIDI format) to a professional MIDI synthesizer

The "hanging note bug" of the Soundblaster cards affects only the third capability: Sending data to a professional MIDI-based music synthesizer. Most gamers in the 90s did not own a MIDI-based music synthesizer, so all games are perfectly able to play back sound and game music using the first two capabilities, and they work (mostly) fine on the CT2890. If you want "more realistic" music than the Soundblaster 16 can calculate (which you generally do not need to enjoy 486 games), you would need to purchase a MIDI synthesizer as well. MIDI synthesizers for the Soundblaster 16 come in two shapes: As a plug-in board you can add to your sound card. These plug-in cards are called Wave Blaster (compatible) cards, because that's the name Creative Labs used for them. There are also external synthesizers, like the Sound Canvas or a competing Yamaha model. These synthesizers can be connected to the Game Port of the Soundblaster 16.

As long as you don't choose MPU-401/GM/MIDI as music playback method, but use "AdLib", "OPL2", "OPL3", "Soundblaster", "Soundblaster Pro" or "Soundblaster 16" as music playback method, you do not need a dedicated MIDI synthesizer. This also means you do not need to worry about hanging notes. Most likely, your gaming experience will be fine with that card.

I never realised there was so much to it all.

I think Ill pick up the Sound Blaster 16 I mentioned in my first post and see how it goes. If it puts out SNES style music Ill be happy with that.

snes style music is "midi " a wavetable, SB16 is megadrive style, a OPL FM synth

theelf wrote on 2025-06-14, 23:35:

ElectroSoldier wrote on 2025-06-14, 20:40:

mkarcher wrote on 2025-06-14, 17:16:

Actually, an ISA sound card is both what you think and also what you found when looking for MIDI devices. A typical ISA sound ca […]
Show full quote

Actually, an ISA sound card is both what you think and also what you found when looking for MIDI devices. A typical ISA sound card in a 90s game uses both capabilities. Sound effects in the game are usually made from pre-recorded samples that are played as-is by the sound card. On the other hand, old computers were not powerful enough to calculate background music in real-time, so for music playback, the sound card is instructed to generate "its own sounds" as you say. The Soundblaster 16 you are buying can do both, so no need to worry. The main issue about the music generation of the Soundblaster 16 is that it uses a quite simple mathematical model to "create its own sounds", while professional music synthesizer cards use recorded samples of physical instruments as "their own sounds".

Actually, the Soundblaster 16 can do three things:

1. It can play pre-recorded samples (but only one at a time)
2. It can calculate music using a simple mathematical model (FM synthesis)
3. It can send queued music data (in MIDI format) to a professional MIDI synthesizer

The "hanging note bug" of the Soundblaster cards affects only the third capability: Sending data to a professional MIDI-based music synthesizer. Most gamers in the 90s did not own a MIDI-based music synthesizer, so all games are perfectly able to play back sound and game music using the first two capabilities, and they work (mostly) fine on the CT2890. If you want "more realistic" music than the Soundblaster 16 can calculate (which you generally do not need to enjoy 486 games), you would need to purchase a MIDI synthesizer as well. MIDI synthesizers for the Soundblaster 16 come in two shapes: As a plug-in board you can add to your sound card. These plug-in cards are called Wave Blaster (compatible) cards, because that's the name Creative Labs used for them. There are also external synthesizers, like the Sound Canvas or a competing Yamaha model. These synthesizers can be connected to the Game Port of the Soundblaster 16.

As long as you don't choose MPU-401/GM/MIDI as music playback method, but use "AdLib", "OPL2", "OPL3", "Soundblaster", "Soundblaster Pro" or "Soundblaster 16" as music playback method, you do not need a dedicated MIDI synthesizer. This also means you do not need to worry about hanging notes. Most likely, your gaming experience will be fine with that card.

I never realised there was so much to it all.

I think Ill pick up the Sound Blaster 16 I mentioned in my first post and see how it goes. If it puts out SNES style music Ill be happy with that.

snes style music is "midi " a wavetable, SB16 is megadrive style, a OPL FM synth

I have a feeling a journey is about to start...

ElectroSoldier wrote on 2025-06-15, 00:22:

theelf wrote on 2025-06-14, 23:35:

snes style music is "midi " a wavetable, SB16 is megadrive style, a OPL FM synth

I have a feeling a journey is about to start...

Just go slow, start with the SB16.

I also recommend watching Phil's video I posted earlier, it goes over using MIDI on a modern PC. MIDI itself works like sheet music saying have x instrument play y note. Different synths use different samples so they have all their own distinct sound. So using a modern PC won't ruin the experience. And it's a way to experience MIDI before jumping down what can be a very expensive rabbit hole. There are archives online of MIDI file rips of different game music. If some of your favorite games support MIDI, get their soundtracks and give them a listen and see if you like what you hear.

Most people didn't use MIDI back then, but if someone had the option many people would use MIDI over OPL/Adlib. Just like most people used a sound card over a PC speaker for audio.

Here's a very quick comparison of Doom. The video first has Adlib off an AWE64, then the AWE64's built-in Wavetable using MIDI, and finally a real Roland Soundcanvas.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nTaJ_q9bkdk

SScorpio wrote on 2025-06-15, 00:37:

Just go slow, start with the SB16. […]
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ElectroSoldier wrote on 2025-06-15, 00:22:

theelf wrote on 2025-06-14, 23:35:

snes style music is "midi " a wavetable, SB16 is megadrive style, a OPL FM synth

I have a feeling a journey is about to start...

Just go slow, start with the SB16.

I also recommend watching Phil's video I posted earlier, it goes over using MIDI on a modern PC. MIDI itself works like sheet music saying have x instrument play y note. Different synths use different samples so they have all their own distinct sound. So using a modern PC won't ruin the experience. And it's a way to experience MIDI before jumping down what can be a very expensive rabbit hole. There are archives online of MIDI file rips of different game music. If some of your favorite games support MIDI, get their soundtracks and give them a listen and see if you like what you hear.

Most people didn't use MIDI back then, but if someone had the option many people would use MIDI over OPL/Adlib. Just like most people used a sound card over a PC speaker for audio.

Here's a very quick comparison of Doom. The video first has Adlib off an AWE64, then the AWE64's built-in Wavetable using MIDI, and finally a real Roland Soundcanvas.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nTaJ_q9bkdk

Starts off good and then gets better...

Not sure what I want though, and Im not sure if I would see any benefits of the better end based on the games I want to play on it.
I Cant see me playing DooM, Im not even sure it would play on a 486DX2-66 with 8Mb of RAM and some kind of Cirix graphics chip.

Doom runs fine on a 486 DX2-66. We used to play it on a 486 DLC-40 back in the day.

I decided to roll with the SB16 for now. I'll see how it goes and let you know.

Does anybody know where I can get the DOS 6.22 and Windows 3.11 drivers for this card?

ElectroSoldier wrote on 2025-06-18, 13:51:

Does anybody know where I can get the DOS 6.22 and Windows 3.11 drivers for this card?

You mean CT2890 ?
For DOS, UNISOUND should be enough.

ElectroSoldier wrote on 2025-06-18, 13:51:

Does anybody know where I can get the DOS 6.22 and Windows 3.11 drivers for this card?

https://theretroweb.com/expansioncards/s/crea … d-ct2890#driver

Linoleum wrote on 2025-06-18, 16:42:

ElectroSoldier wrote on 2025-06-18, 13:51:

Does anybody know where I can get the DOS 6.22 and Windows 3.11 drivers for this card?

https://theretroweb.com/expansioncards/s/crea … d-ct2890#driver

Another good source for SB16-type drivers is https://www.philscomputerlab.com/creative-labs-drivers.html - you need ctcmbbs.exe for Plug-and-Play sound cards (the CT2890 is one), and you need sbbasic.exe for all SB16-type cards.

ElectroSoldier wrote on 2025-06-15, 18:29:

I decided to roll with the SB16 for now. I'll see how it goes and let you know.

I had both YMF719 sound card and CT2290 for years. Thus I'd like to share my expierence.

The bottem line is, they are both quite decent ISA sound card for the 486 platform, both of them provide excellent FM sound quality and compatibility to DOS and Win9x games.
The CT2290, unfortunately does have the "hanging note" problem while using the MIDI daughterboard. Besides that, it's perfect.
While the YMF719 provide the excellent compatibility to the MIDI borad. So at this point, YAMAHA Vs Creative, 1:0.
Since the output volume of YMF719 IS a little louder than CT2290. So, now is 1.5 : 0 -_-
I really can't say any other issue abount thier performance, neither of them. But there is a little concern you can't ignore.
Both of them are over 30 year's old products, it's really hard to say they could maintain the same level as a brand new sound card. To be fair, this issue exists in any old hardwares, especially in the sound cards.
That's why I eventually sold both of them out, and get a MK1869.

Nevertheless, I hope you could get a card in good condition. Good luck.

ElectroSoldier wrote on 2025-06-18, 13:51:

Does anybody know where I can get the DOS 6.22 and Windows 3.11 drivers for this card?

Depending on which cards you mean, you might be able to get away without needing DOS drivers.

Card that were released prior to PnP (Plug and Pray 😁 ) used jumpers you'd configure to set IRQ, IO port, DMA, etc. Games then just directly talk to the hardware rather than having a HAL in the middle like how things work nowadays.

PnP cards ran software at boot that would dynamically configure the resources, but this is the same as setting jumpers just via software and is needed on every boot. Unisound is a great utility that has replaced the need for drivers for a large number of cards. You just need to have a SET BLASTER statement which is used by games to see what your sound card settings are, you then run Unisound and it initializes the card, sets volume, etc and then exits. Some sound card drivers like hanging around in memory taking up resources even if they are not otherwise required.

Drivers do include utilities like media players, etc. But for just gaming, they aren't needed.

So I downloaded the drivers from Retroweb and installed them.
They install ok and its now set using the defaults
I think its 5 1 5 for IRQ channel and DMA.
But the sound comes out of the system speaker not the speaker I plugged into the sound card.

What am I doing wrong?

ElectroSoldier wrote on 2025-06-20, 15:58:

So I downloaded the drivers from Retroweb and installed them. They install ok and its now set using the defaults I think its 5 1 […]
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So I downloaded the drivers from Retroweb and installed them.
They install ok and its now set using the defaults
I think its 5 1 5 for IRQ channel and DMA.
But the sound comes out of the system speaker not the speaker I plugged into the sound card.

What am I doing wrong?

What sound? When you first turn on the machine the beep and buzz from the RAM check will be over the PC speaker.

You need to configure each game to use the soundcard.

SScorpio wrote on 2025-06-20, 16:03:

ElectroSoldier wrote on 2025-06-20, 15:58:

So I downloaded the drivers from Retroweb and installed them. They install ok and its now set using the defaults I think its 5 1 […]
Show full quote

So I downloaded the drivers from Retroweb and installed them.
They install ok and its now set using the defaults
I think its 5 1 5 for IRQ channel and DMA.
But the sound comes out of the system speaker not the speaker I plugged into the sound card.

What am I doing wrong?

What sound? When you first turn on the machine the beep and buzz from the RAM check will be over the PC speaker.

You need to configure each game to use the soundcard.

I installed HeroQuest and when I run Intro.exe the sound comes out of the PC speaker.

What do you mean you have to configure each game to use the sound card?
I installed it already. It has the DOS drivers now.

ElectroSoldier wrote on 2025-06-20, 16:33:

What do you mean you have to configure each game to use the sound card?
I installed it already. It has the DOS drivers now.

DOS is different from modern operating systems.

Modern systems - together with a hardware-specific driver - provide standardized sound API to applications.
If the driver is installed, all applications can use it without any additional setup.

DOS doesn't provide any sound API.
DOS applications access the sound card directly.
Some apps detect and use the card automatically, others need to be configured - look for files like "SETUP.EXE" in the game's directory.

The "DOS drivers" you've installed only do the initialization - they make the card use certain settings, by default I/O address 220h, IRQ 5, DMA 1 and 5.
The rest must be done by the games on their own.

ElectroSoldier wrote on 2025-06-20, 16:33:

What do you mean you have to configure each game to use the sound card?

Many DOS games have an executable called "INSTALL", "SETUP", "SETSOUND" or something like that that needs to be invoked to select which sound card the game is supposed to use. Other games rely on the BLASTER variable to be set. There also are games that have the sound setup included in the game menu.

In the case of HeroQuest (if you are talking about the 1991 DOS game), the "INTRO.EXE" file seems to contain the code to let you select a sound device (like internal speaker or AdLib). The SoundBlaster 16 is compatible to the AdLib card. It also contains the error message "Configuration file missing, type 'hero' to set configuration", so possibly a way to enter the setup is to delete quest.cfg and then run hero.

It seems I need a mouse driver before I can run the game in DOS

ElectroSoldier wrote on 2025-06-20, 20:55:

It seems I need a mouse driver before I can run the game in DOS

Start with Phil's DOS boot disk. It gives you a menu that lets you boot with different memory and mouse/cdrom driver configurations to need the requirements for various DOS games.

It also includes modern versions of drivers which are more compatible and use less memory that legacy solutions.

https://www.philscomputerlab.com/dos-boot-dis … -easy-fast.html

SScorpio wrote on 2025-06-20, 23:21:

Start with Phil's DOS boot disk. It gives you a menu that lets you boot with different memory and mouse/cdrom driver configurati […]
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ElectroSoldier wrote on 2025-06-20, 20:55:

It seems I need a mouse driver before I can run the game in DOS

Start with Phil's DOS boot disk. It gives you a menu that lets you boot with different memory and mouse/cdrom driver configurations to need the requirements for various DOS games.

It also includes modern versions of drivers which are more compatible and use less memory that legacy solutions.

https://www.philscomputerlab.com/dos-boot-dis … -easy-fast.html

I see...
The system came with DOS 6.22 and Windows 3.11 already installed.
I would need to buy DOS and Windows before I can install it myself.