nd22 wrote on 2025-06-29, 13:24:

Now I will try to answer some possible questions: 1. Where is the beige case? Since I bought my first PC in 1998 I used only bla […]
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Now I will try to answer some possible questions:
1. Where is the beige case?
Since I bought my first PC in 1998 I used only black cases. No RGB, no fancy lights, just standard black case. I am aware that many people use beige cases as it was the norm back in the late 90's and the early 2000's; they got my respect - they are some really great builds on the forum. All my cases were, are and will be black.
2. Does this system ensure additional playability beyond 2004?
NO. In 2005 there are some highly demanding games: Serious Sam 2, Fear, Call of duty, Battlefield 2 to name a few. Both the CPU and the GPU are too weak for smooth gameplay. And no, there are no AGP cards that can play 2005 games at max details - Quake 4, for example, can not be played with an average of 60 FSP, not even with the Radeon 3850.
3. Any extra upgrades worth getting?
The one thing I can think of is a sound card - Audigy 2ZS would be great. Unfortunately my retro corner is only 5 m2 where all my stuff must fit and all I got are a pair of stereo speakers.
One other thing is a RAID with a pair of 150gb Raptors, but I got only 10 of them and all are used in different builds.

I still use a non RGB black case, I usually go for Fractal Design ones since a lot of them still have the option for a 5.25 drive bay and they still look nice.

To conclude:
- does the ultimate socket A system makes sense from the practical point of view? No. There are far better systems that can run all 2000 - 2004 games and many more at higher frame rates.
- does the ultimate socket A system makes sense from the financial point of view? Absolutely NO. Building the ultimate of any kind is very expensive!
- does the ultimate socket A system makes sense from the nostalgia point of view? 100% YES! For me this is a dream came true! I read about the XP 3200, Abit boards and the video cards in the magazines of the time and of course I could not afford such a beast!
12 years later I got the PC of my dreams! Running since 2016 it's a feat in itself. I did not expected for a system this old to have such a long life. I thought that the motherboard, the video card or something else will surely break! Yet it is still going strong and all my gaming is on it despite the fact that I could build a much more powerful machine with a Core 2 duo for example!

You could try adding an SSD. I wonder how much it improves usability of the system. It could compensate a bit for the slow CPU and make the system more responsive.

I'm planning to switch to SSD in my Windows XP build once I find another cheap 1TB Samsung SSD with low wear level (not a server drive, 98-99% state in CrystalDiskInfo). I found a 1TB Samsung 850 EVO and Samsung 860 EVO for my AM2+ Phenom build. My current Phenom II has 1TB Intel SSD drive for Windows 7 and I plan adding 2TB for Windows 10. 1TB is not much for a basically modern system. I fill it up quickly so I prefer 1TB even for Windows XP.

AlexZ wrote on 2025-06-29, 14:34:

You could try adding an SSD. I wonder how much it improves usability of the system. It could compensate a bit for the slow CPU and make the system more responsive.

I'm planning to switch to SSD in my Windows XP build once I find another cheap 1TB Samsung SSD with low wear level (not a server drive, 98-99% state in CrystalDiskInfo). I found a 1TB Samsung 850 EVO and Samsung 860 EVO for my AM2+ Phenom build. My current Phenom II has 1TB Intel SSD drive for Windows 7 and I plan adding 2TB for Windows 10. 1TB is not much for a basically modern system. I fill it up quickly so I prefer 1TB even for Windows XP.

Server drives are fine so long as they come with a picture of its smart reading, I have a good number of the Intel server drives that all had between 97% - 100% life remaining, and even more drives that have never actually been used but kept as spares.

They are usually far cheaper than the Samsung drives which get the snot kicked out of them by a ton of random reads and writes but don't come with any pictures of their smart reading and even fewer with guarantees of longevity even if they do.

I grabbed a 10 drive lot recently of 1tb Intel server drives that were still sealed and were unused, they just wanted to clear their old stock of spares, got that lot for 250 bucks.

Good server drives even used are perfectly serviceable for a retro system not being used 24/7.

AlexZ wrote on 2025-06-29, 14:34:

You could try adding an SSD. I wonder how much it improves usability of the system. It could compensate a bit for the slow CPU and make the system more responsive.

I'm planning to switch to SSD in my Windows XP build once I find another cheap 1TB Samsung SSD with low wear level (not a server drive, 98-99% state in CrystalDiskInfo). I found a 1TB Samsung 850 EVO and Samsung 860 EVO for my AM2+ Phenom build. My current Phenom II has 1TB Intel SSD drive for Windows 7 and I plan adding 2TB for Windows 10. 1TB is not much for a basically modern system. I fill it up quickly so I prefer 1TB even for Windows XP.

I actually used an Intel SSD back in 2016 when I first started building the system! However I replaced with a Raptor because I love the sound when starting up XP - I know I'm weird!!! - and it just seems right in this system!
Abit NF7 - S 2.0 and AN7 are the only 2 socket A Abit boards that can take a SSD!

Trashbytes wrote on 2025-06-29, 15:10:

Server drives are fine so long as they come with a picture of its smart reading, I have a good number of the Intel server drives […]
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Server drives are fine so long as they come with a picture of its smart reading, I have a good number of the Intel server drives that all had between 97% - 100% life remaining, and even more drives that have never actually been used but kept as spares.

They are usually far cheaper than the Samsung drives which get the snot kicked out of them by a ton of random reads and writes but don't come with any pictures of their smart reading and even fewer with guarantees of longevity even if they do.

I grabbed a 10 drive lot recently of 1tb Intel server drives that were still sealed and were unused, they just wanted to clear their old stock of spares, got that lot for 250 bucks.

Good server drives even used are perfectly serviceable for a retro system not being used 24/7.

I must be weird, but honestly prefer just buying modern drives. Sure, those old stuff is theoretically better in some ways, but... it is like 10 years old at this time, who knows when, why and how it is going to die?

It is becoming harder and harder to find actually good SATA drives but honestly, given on this systems performance is severely limited by other things, it does not matter that much. Typical SMI2259XT+TLC is good enough and dirt cheap.

For me the biggest concern in a system i am going to practically use is reliability. Not in a sense of preserving data, though i do like my saves, but in a sense that system needs to work, reliably. When i actually have time to play a game or something i want to do that, not troubleshoot/fix faulty hardware. So no RAID0, no vintage HDDs, no vintage SSDs... though i do use some of my own older SSDs...

That's why i generally build systems i am going to use with reliability in mind, even if it affects how "period correct" the system is. And why i prefer not to OC such systems.

Apparently everyone has their own idea of what a system like this should ideally be, which results in interestingly different builds.

nd22 wrote on 2025-06-29, 16:29:

I actually used an Intel SSD back in 2016 when I first started building the system! However I replaced with a Raptor because I love the sound when starting up XP - I know I'm weird!!! - and it just seems right in this system!

What's weird i do like seek/head movement sounds myself, apparently many people do.

But the whine of disks simply spinning gives me a headache in a couple hours. Which is, above any other considerations, obviously a dealbreaker.

If an option existed to have one but not another i'd probably do that, regardless of reliability concerns mentioned above (i can setup a proper automated backup if i have to). But sadly no such thing exists...

Archer57 wrote on 2025-06-30, 01:37:

I must be weird, but honestly prefer just buying modern drives. Sure, those old stuff is theoretically better in some ways, but. […]
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Trashbytes wrote on 2025-06-29, 15:10:

Server drives are fine so long as they come with a picture of its smart reading, I have a good number of the Intel server drives […]
Show full quote

Server drives are fine so long as they come with a picture of its smart reading, I have a good number of the Intel server drives that all had between 97% - 100% life remaining, and even more drives that have never actually been used but kept as spares.

They are usually far cheaper than the Samsung drives which get the snot kicked out of them by a ton of random reads and writes but don't come with any pictures of their smart reading and even fewer with guarantees of longevity even if they do.

I grabbed a 10 drive lot recently of 1tb Intel server drives that were still sealed and were unused, they just wanted to clear their old stock of spares, got that lot for 250 bucks.

Good server drives even used are perfectly serviceable for a retro system not being used 24/7.

I must be weird, but honestly prefer just buying modern drives. Sure, those old stuff is theoretically better in some ways, but... it is like 10 years old at this time, who knows when, why and how it is going to die?

It is becoming harder and harder to find actually good SATA drives but honestly, given on this systems performance is severely limited by other things, it does not matter that much. Typical SMI2259XT+TLC is good enough and dirt cheap.

For me the biggest concern in a system i am going to practically use is reliability. Not in a sense of preserving data, though i do like my saves, but in a sense that system needs to work, reliably. When i actually have time to play a game or something i want to do that, not troubleshoot/fix faulty hardware. So no RAID0, no vintage HDDs, no vintage SSDs... though i do use some of my own older SSDs...

That's why i generally build systems i am going to use with reliability in mind, even if it affects how "period correct" the system is. And why i prefer not to OC such systems.

Apparently everyone has their own idea of what a system like this should ideally be, which results in interestingly different builds.

nd22 wrote on 2025-06-29, 16:29:

I actually used an Intel SSD back in 2016 when I first started building the system! However I replaced with a Raptor because I love the sound when starting up XP - I know I'm weird!!! - and it just seems right in this system!

What's weird i do like seek/head movement sounds myself, apparently many people do.

But the whine of disks simply spinning gives me a headache in a couple hours. Which is, above any other considerations, obviously a dealbreaker.

If an option existed to have one but not another i'd probably do that, regardless of reliability concerns mentioned above (i can setup a proper automated backup if i have to). But sadly no such thing exists...

Are we talking about he same server drives ?

Im referring to the Intel SATA SSD drives here 😁 the 6Gb ones with Intel quality TLC or if you are lucky some of that Optane stuff.

As for longevity ..its down to who fabbed the Nand and how hard its been driven in its life, I personally wouldn't buy a used SSD unless I could see its smart reading or I know its NIB.

Trashbytes wrote on 2025-06-30, 02:15:

Are we talking about he same server drives ?

Im referring to the Intel SATA SSD drives here 😁 the 6Gb ones with Intel quality TLC or if you are lucky some of that Optane stuff.

As for longevity ..its down to who fabbed the Nand and how hard its been driven.

Well, intel made a lot of SSDs. Including very early ones. If you are referring to newer ones those obviously are fine, though i still prefer new.

Fun fact - DC/Server drives are typically rated for 3 month data retention, consumer ones for 1 year. That's mainly where extra P/E cycles are coming from.

Optane is nice, but AFAIK the stuff which is actual 3D Xpoint and not just regular NAND Flash SSD labeled with the brand is either pci-e or those weird Optane DIMM. No SATA.

Trashbytes wrote on 2025-06-30, 02:15:

...I personally wouldn't buy a used SSD unless I could see its smart reading or I know its NIB.

Hm, interesting. AFAIK firmware is stored in the same flash user data is, i wonder what "best before" is for this SSDs. AFAIK data loss in firmware storage is fairly common way for them to go, how long they can remain NIB and still functional is actually very interesting question (likely with no easy answer as it'll depend on storage temperature).

Archer57 wrote on 2025-06-30, 02:24:

Well, intel made a lot of SSDs. Including very early ones. If you are referring to newer ones those obviously are fine, though i […]
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Trashbytes wrote on 2025-06-30, 02:15:

Are we talking about he same server drives ?

Im referring to the Intel SATA SSD drives here 😁 the 6Gb ones with Intel quality TLC or if you are lucky some of that Optane stuff.

As for longevity ..its down to who fabbed the Nand and how hard its been driven.

Well, intel made a lot of SSDs. Including very early ones. If you are referring to newer ones those obviously are fine, though i still prefer new.

Fun fact - DC/Server drives are typically rated for 3 month data retention, consumer ones for 1 year. That's mainly where extra P/E cycles are coming from.

Optane is nice, but AFAIK the stuff which is actual 3D Xpoint and not just regular NAND Flash SSD labeled with the brand is either pci-e or those weird Optane DIMM. No SATA.

Trashbytes wrote on 2025-06-30, 02:15:

...I personally wouldn't buy a used SSD unless I could see its smart reading or I know its NIB.

Hm, interesting. AFAIK firmware is stored in the same flash user data is, i wonder what "best before" is for this SSDs. AFAIK data loss in firmware storage is fairly common way for them to go, how long they can remain NIB and still functional is actually very interesting question (likely with no easy answer as it'll depend on storage temperature).

Thats a good question about the firmware, I have never heard of a drive losing its firmware but I guess its possible if its been stored long enough.

Trashbytes wrote on 2025-06-30, 03:09:

Thats a good question about the firmware, I have never heard of a drive losing its firmware but I guess its possible if its been stored long enough.

That's actually more common than you'd think. Especially on drives with low quality flash.

Any time the drive is no longer detected at all it is very likely to be due to corrupted/lost firmware, one way or another. Could be electrical failure, but SSDs are relatively simple and that's not very common/likely. There is no easy way to diagnose what happened and people would not bother in most cases anyway, so it is not discussed a lot.

There are leaked "manufacturing" tools floating around the internet for some controllers, like stuff from SMI. Those tools can perform initialization, memory pretest and write the firmware to supposedly new drive. In many cases those tools can actually fix such "broken" drives, as long as specific controller+memory configuration is known/supported.

Lost firmware can likely be only restored by reinitializing the drive using some kind of hardware device only manufacturer has. Probably not possible on PC.

When it comes to running SSD on Athlon XP, I would only considering it if it plugs into SATA rather than ATA with an adapter. I have plenty of old 80GB magnetic drives for my PIII build and it doesn't really need an SSD. I wonder if there are Athlon XP boards where SATA with SSD is unstable. BIOSes don't support AHCI so it would run in IDE mode only.

Epox 8RDA3+ (nForce2) has a SIL SATA chip. My nForce3 and nForce4 boards support SATA natively but without AHCI.

Used server SATA SSDs that are not worth it are easy to spot, they have very few turn on cycles but many hours on them. Health is often very low. I would only buy spare ones that were never used.

It is possible, with some controllers at least.

SATA on socketA, from what i've personally seen - VIA does not work (sata1 devices only), nvidia works with no issues, sil controllers may work or may break spectacularly - data corruption and everything.

SATA1 with no AHCI is only marginally better than ATA133 with adapter in terms of performance. Results on nvidia sata are close to what's possible to get with good PCI sata controller (another option).

OS performance is still spectacularly better, even on ATA133. Stuff takes seconds to install etc. And there is no noise.

I did not have any issues with ide-sata adapters, apart from having to overcome 80pin cable detection on one board. But i only tried limited number of SSDs...

the seek times make a huge difference, its waaaay more important than the theorical maximum speed of Sata 1 and Ata

i can feel the difference even in my K6-2+ @ 600Mhz under UDMA 33 and UDMA 100 @ PCI

Living wrote on 2025-07-01, 02:42:

the seek times make a huge difference, its waaaay more important than the theorical maximum speed of Sata 1 and Ata

i can feel the difference even in my K6-2+ @ 600Mhz under UDMA 33 and UDMA 100 @ PCI

Yep, i absolutely agree. On this machines in XP the difference is huge, even between ssd and more modern hdd which can easily handle the same (interface limited) linear transfer speeds.

Though unlike modern systems, where linear transfer speeds are now just silly and no longer relevant at all, on this old systems they do matter too. Like difference between UDMA33 and UDMA133 is clearly, visibly noticeable - that's how i noticed UDMA33 limit caused by BIOS assuming my IDE-SATA adapter (with no cable at all) is 40pin cable.

UDMA133/ATA133 and SATA1/SATA150 are much closer though, practical difference, at least on controllers i've tried, is like 10-15% in linear speeds, which is not noticeable at all. The next step which provides meaningful improvement is SATAII+AHCI, which is too new for this systems.

New addition to my Athlon XP boards, another KT880 board since the MSI 880 is in the repair bin for new caps.

As soon as it arrives Ill put it through some testing with both an unlocked 3200+ and the XP-M 3000+, just going to use the 7900GS I have that I know works good .. might throw the 6800 Ultra at it too to see just how much improvement the 7000 series are even in a Athlon XP build.

Got 2Gb of DDR500 to throw in it as well, should allow for some wiggle room on memory speed and timings since I know these DDR500 sticks can get some super tight timings running at DDR400 speeds.

Looks like a nice board. I wonder why Asus didn't include a P4 CPU connector. My MSI KT6V does have it yet this is a better board.

I always try to have at least two very similar boards in case one dies or needs maintenance.

I wonder if the dual channel controller on socket 462 behaves like a single 128bit bus instead of two independent 64bit buses. This is the case on AM2 CPUs and is not configurable.

AlexZ wrote on 2025-07-02, 18:26:

I wonder if the dual channel controller on socket 462 behaves like a single 128bit bus instead of two independent 64bit buses. This is the case on AM2 CPUs and is not configurable.

AFAIK nforce2 load balances between 2 separate controllers, does not "glue" them together into single 128bit one.

It also supports mismatched memory in different channels - both size and configuration. You can run 3x1GB sticks and still benefit from dual channel, or something like 512MB+2x256MB which was pretty common back in the day given weird 3 slots most boards have. This would also imply it is not single 128bit controller as in that case it would not work.

With all the quirks it has this chipset was really ahead of its time...

Also the difference is - on socketA memory controller is in chipset and chipset handles everything related to memory, so how it works will depend on chipset. On AM2 memory controller is in CPU, so it'll always work the same way regardless of chipset.

AlexZ wrote on 2025-07-02, 18:26:

Looks like a nice board. I wonder why Asus didn't include a P4 CPU connector. My MSI KT6V does have it yet this is a better board.

I always try to have at least two very similar boards in case one dies or needs maintenance.

I wonder if the dual channel controller on socket 462 behaves like a single 128bit bus instead of two independent 64bit buses. This is the case on AM2 CPUs and is not configurable.

KT880 is rather picky about how you set the ram up, especially in dual channel mode with 4Gb of memory.

Just going to stick with 2Gb here as nothing in XP really requires 4Gb and I dont feel like messing with memory modules.

I got a few Abit KW7, they are nice boards; they work fine with 4gb of RAM and got the auxiliary power connector but are always behind AN7 in performance! The big advantage is price: I bought each of them for less than 40 USD, meanwhile AN7 is going to cost you a lot more!

Archer57 wrote on 2025-06-30, 15:02:

SATA on socketA, from what i've personally seen - VIA does not work (sata1 devices only), nvidia works with no issues, sil controllers may work or may break spectacularly - data corruption and everything.

On my Abit NF7-S2G NO ssd works! I tried multiple brands and none worked. The only 2 socket A Abit boards that accepts SSD's are: AN7 and NF7-S 2.0. On the rest of the boards nothing worked! Not even with adapters!