VOGONS


First post, by MattRocks

User metadata
Rank Newbie
Rank
Newbie

Years later, I still run into people who insist the Sound Blaster Live! was revolutionary.

“Great card!” they say. “One of the best of its era!”

And every time I hear that, I’m reminded that people will say any garbage if enough nostalgia is back them up.

It's time to correct the record with my first hand experience:

CT4620 – The Launch Disaster
The original SB Live!: black jacks, gold rings, and enough crackles and PCI-latency chaos to make Windows 98 sound like a frying pan. It's historical importance mirrors the trauma it provides.
Suitability for Wall Art:

CT4830 – The OEM Interloper
Looks exactly like a proper retail SB Live!, but Creative’s drivers flat-out refuse it. Requires the one-off OEM CD you overlooked once and never saw again. A perfect example of industry OEM roulette.
Suitability for Wall Art:

SB0220 – Schrödinger’s Sound Card
Creative’s driver strategy must have been a social experiment, because they reused the same product code for two totally different cards. Sometimes it’s a full EMU10K1 Live!, sometimes it’s a Audigy LS AC’97.
Suitability for Wall Art:

Reply 1 of 17, by Dipshidian

User metadata
Rank Newbie
Rank
Newbie

What is the point of this thread exactly?

Your friendly source for high quality video captures of period-correct hardware! Youtube: @dipshidian

Reply 2 of 17, by cyclone3d

User metadata
Rank l33t++
Rank
l33t++

Yeah, the chipset / motherboard mfgs and Creative were throwing poo at each other back then and the PCI issues were pretty much both side's fault

That being said, it was more of an issue with how PCI handled IRQs.

Blaming the card on the issues, as in the 4620, is just silly though.

This is coming from somebody who had bought one new back when they were new.

Yamaha modified setupds and drivers
Yamaha XG repository
YMF7x4 Guide
Aopen AW744L II SB-LINK

Reply 3 of 17, by MattRocks

User metadata
Rank Newbie
Rank
Newbie
cyclone3d wrote on 2025-11-21, 18:51:

Blaming the card on the issues, as in the 4620, is just silly though.

This is coming from somebody who had bought one new back when they were new.

I bought CT4620 new, when they were new. I still have it. It has always been noisy.

I remember swapping it at the store because I couldn't believe it was supposed to be as bad as it was. The replacement was no better.

It cannot simply have been PCI bus jitter because new drivers didn't make the problems go away.

Somehow the store convinced me that swapping stereo desktop speakers for the 4.1 sound kit would fix cackling - how gullible was I? In the end I think, actually, I increased the volume to mask the noise.

Reply 4 of 17, by MattRocks

User metadata
Rank Newbie
Rank
Newbie
Dipshidian wrote on 2025-11-21, 18:38:

What is the point of this thread exactly?

It's a race to the bottom. What is the most overrated kit you ever bought? 😉

Reply 5 of 17, by Dipshidian

User metadata
Rank Newbie
Rank
Newbie

Well, I have plenty of captured footage grabbed directly from a PC with a CT4620 and not experienced this supposed rampant crackling and excessive noise described here. No first-handers here, just audiovisual data. I’ve heard surprisingly many pops, clicks and crackles coming from various Aureal Vortex 1/2 drivers that I have tested thus far, however.

Your friendly source for high quality video captures of period-correct hardware! Youtube: @dipshidian

Reply 6 of 17, by Joseph_Joestar

User metadata
Rank l33t++
Rank
l33t++
Dipshidian wrote on 2025-11-21, 19:44:

Well, I have plenty of captured footage grabbed directly from a PC with a CT4620 and not experienced this supposed rampant crackling and excessive noise described here. No first-handers here, just audiovisual data. I’ve heard surprisingly many pops, clicks and crackles coming from various Aureal Vortex 1/2 drivers that I have tested thus far, however.

I have a SB0100 model of the SBLive, and I never experienced crackling or popping with it.

Similarly to your experience, I have heard plenty of both on a Vortex 2, especially in games like Thief: The Dark Project. Some of it can be resolved by using older drivers though.

PC#1: Pentium MMX 166 / Soyo SY-5BT / S3 Trio64V+ / Voodoo1 / YMF719 / AWE64 Gold / SC-155
PC#2: AthlonXP 2100+ / ECS K7VTA3 / Voodoo3 / Audigy2 / Vortex2
PC#3: Core 2 Duo E8600 / Foxconn P35AX-S / X800 / Audigy2 ZS
PC#4: i5-3570K / MSI Z77A-G43 / GTX 980Ti / X-Fi Titanium

Reply 7 of 17, by cyclone3d

User metadata
Rank l33t++
Rank
l33t++

@MattRocks

Can you upload some recordings with these issues present?

We also need this info:
1. Motherboard brand and model and BIOS version
2. Power supply brand and model and age
3. Which slot the card is installed in
4. Is the card sharing an IRQ with any other devices
5. PCI latency timer setting in the BIOS
6. Motherboard chipset driver version
7. Sound card driver version
8. Windows version and update status

Yamaha modified setupds and drivers
Yamaha XG repository
YMF7x4 Guide
Aopen AW744L II SB-LINK

Reply 8 of 17, by swaaye

User metadata
Rank l33t++
Rank
l33t++

There are certainly VIA based motherboards that will exhibit major problems with the card. This is caused by both chipset flaws and poorly configured BIOS programming. The famous PCI Latency Patch can sometimes completely fix the problems, but if you have a VIA 686B southbridge there can still be IDE data corruption.

SBLive is usually fine on an Intel based board, though drivers vary. Sometimes you might need to try different PCI slots because some slots share IRQs with other devices and this is another source of problems. And I think early ACPI can cause such problems too, especially with Win9x.

"Good old days". 😀 I do have a nostalgic appreciation for a SBLive running Liveware 3.0 on Win98 in a 440BX setup.

Reply 9 of 17, by MattRocks

User metadata
Rank Newbie
Rank
Newbie
Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2025-11-21, 20:01:

Similarly to your experience, I have heard plenty of both on a Vortex 2, especially in games like Thief: The Dark Project. Some of it can be resolved by using older drivers though.

That is interesting because in graphics we are accustomed to newer drivers providing bug fixes, but in audio it seems more complicated.

I suspect the the analog stage is actually longer and more varied on audio cards, so the drivers need to be more tuned - less value in using generic reference drivers?

Reply 10 of 17, by leileilol

User metadata
Rank l33t++
Rank
l33t++

my via mvp3 was pretty blippy with a proper live 5.1. had PCem ever emulated the card, i'm sure its actual bugs would be reported as emulator bugs just as with the AudioPCI 128 thanks to creative's big brand standard corporate image to assume they're perfection. They're banking on that past clout to kickstart their... ai shit hub or something.

Also besides poor audio quality, they're also CPU/bus eaters (despite the "acceleration")! Didn't realize that until I went Realtek ALC.

apsosig.png
long live PCem

Reply 11 of 17, by MattRocks

User metadata
Rank Newbie
Rank
Newbie
cyclone3d wrote on 2025-11-21, 20:27:
@MattRocks […]
Show full quote

@MattRocks

Can you upload some recordings with these issues present?

We also need this info:
1. Motherboard brand and model and BIOS version
2. Power supply brand and model and age
3. Which slot the card is installed in
4. Is the card sharing an IRQ with any other devices
5. PCI latency timer setting in the BIOS
6. Motherboard chipset driver version
7. Sound card driver version
8. Windows version and update status

Since joining this site I have felt an urge to travel back home and collect my old PCs (and all the old sound cards mentioned). But when I bought my CT4620, I was using a VIA-based Chaitech super socket 7 motherboard. That Chaintech suffered a capacitor failure so I might be unable to reassemble that particular combination.

But I remember the discussions of the time, and "we" didn't think Creative planned to launch SB Live (EMU10K1) in 1998. I think that happened because the AWE64D (EMU8008) was a dead duck.

My view is that Creative needed to launch something not fully tested. What we actually bought was a DSP + multiple DACs running off a single power line, and my guess is noise from one DAC’s operations can propagate to the other causing ripple and jitter. Maybe multiple DACs worked on E-mu boards, but those were much bigger and in a different class.

I still remember the replaced Windows startup sound - a thunderbolt that never quite crackled the same way twice. If the familiar Microsoft start-up sound came out distorted with crackles or pops, the card would be doomed before anyone even opened a game or EAX demo. Inserting a crackly nature sound was clever marketing.

Reply 12 of 17, by MattRocks

User metadata
Rank Newbie
Rank
Newbie
leileilol wrote on Today, 01:19:

creative's big brand standard corporate image to assume they're perfection ... they're also CPU/bus eaters (despite the "acceleration")! Didn't realize that until I went Realtek ALC.

Those two points are actually why I gave my old sound cards a rethink.

For my old PCs today, I actually favour VIA ENVY24 sound cards with dual crystal oscillators (sometimes they even have three crystals) - that is a brute strength approach to managing the mix of 44.1kHz (CD) and 48kHz (DVD) audio. But in the 1990s I completely dismissed ENVY24.

Instead, I looked at cards that would "accelerate" a particular A3D or EAX video game. They didn't accelerate frame rates though. Instead, they reduced the deceleration of optional and bloated special effects. So it's the special effects that needed more careful reviewing, and the special effects need speakers.

On that point, I remember very carefully testing some speakers methodically using The Matrix DVD. I had the big-brand Creative Labs Cambridge Soundworks 4.1 vs much cheaper Trust 4.1 and, although nobody believed me - I swear the Trust was so much better!

The Trust kit contained cheap satellites and something that that physically resembled a cheap subwoofer. But, crucially, the subwoofer didn't cover low frequencies and the satellites didn't cover high frequencies either - the whole kit really only produced the middle frequencies. But, the important sounds in polished films (e.g. voice and organic sounds) were also mid-frequencies.

When it came to tests the Trust speakers clipped some of the extreme sounds, but I could hear what everyone was saying without straining. The surround sound spatial elements worked perfectly - bullets that really felt like they zipped past the back of my head. It was actually good to watch The Matrix with that cheap kit.

CSW was different. CSW accentuated the big booms and tiny pings. I could hear more of the metal shells landing on the ground. I could hear more of the collapsing concrete buildings. This was a totally different experience. But, crucially, sounds didn't move - the extreme sounds were far-left or far-right, but they didn't clearly pass each other in the middle of the room. The middle frequencies where the story was, was a muffled mess - I need subtitles to clarify what Keanu Reeves was saying.

The magazines were telling us the SB Live + CSW were bargains, and I began to suspect magazines were being coerced by Creative Labs funding magazines with full page spreads of adverts.

Reply 13 of 17, by Spark

User metadata
Rank Member
Rank
Member
MattRocks wrote on 2025-11-21, 13:32:
Years later, I still run into people who insist the Sound Blaster Live! was revolutionary. “Great card!” they say. “One of the b […]
Show full quote

Years later, I still run into people who insist the Sound Blaster Live! was revolutionary.
“Great card!” they say. “One of the best of its era!”
And every time I hear that, I’m reminded that people will say any garbage if enough nostalgia is back them up.
It's time to correct the record with my first hand experience:

I don't understand. I've been using an SB live extensively over the last few years with decent headphones and have had no issues.
Am I: A. Going deaf? B. Deluded by nostalgia for a card I got for free and only started using a few years ago? or C. A liar?

Reply 14 of 17, by MattRocks

User metadata
Rank Newbie
Rank
Newbie
Spark wrote on Today, 16:36:

I don't understand. I've been using an SB live extensively over the last few years with decent headphones and have had no issues.
Am I: A. Going deaf? B. Deluded by nostalgia for a card I got for free and only started using a few years ago? or C. A liar?

A: Going deaf? Realistically we are all going deaf - it's a gradual decline from when we were about 4 years old. You can take free online tests* and I want to find time to take a clinical test because it's better to know than not.

B: Nostalgia? Realistically, 100MHz hardware DSP cannot compete with a multicore 4GHz CPU and software DSP so I don't really know why we turn these old computers on, but I have a hypothesis: I see some parallels in history - apparently, Turin didn't want his Turin Machine computer destroyed. And, like Turin, we don't seem to be turning on computer we didn't use ourselves. I think the pattern might be that we don't want "our machines" dying in the same way we don't want ourselves dying. So, it's not about quality - it's about continuity or not quitting.

Something significant changed though - the Internet was slower in the 1990s and had weaker searching. We now have decades of hindsight, archive.org, disposable income, and an ability to share drivers/hacks/knowledge that we couldn't do in the 1990s.

C: Liars? Different people like different things. Different people are trained in different things. Different people pick up on different technical inaccuracies. I would never call anyone a liar - just different.

Your own experience: Realistically, the SB Live! series ran for several years and the PCBs were continuously revised. I know the PCBs I listed were "characterful" duds (and they were the ownership reality) and that many could be improved with deeper knowledge and a soldering iron. Which SB Live do you have?

Free online hearing tests are worth checking - but not for medical diagnosis because your sound DAC/headphones might not be presenting the frequencies under test.
https://www.specsavers.co.uk/hearing-test/onl … ne-hearing-test <-- this one if you are concerned about your daily hearing
https://hearingtest.online/
https://www.audiocheck.net/audiotests_frequencycheckhigh.php <-- this one goes to 22kHz

I tried on my corporate DELL laptop and couldn't hear anything above 16kHz but there could be many reasons of that. I really should do more tests.

Reply 15 of 17, by Dothan Burger

User metadata
Rank Member
Rank
Member

I can make any Sound card I own make pops and such in 98 by fiddling with the volume control rapidly. Does age really effect ones ability to hear pops? I'm not so sure man...

The Z690-I in my main rig has the ALC4080 codec which is a giant turd, and has pops and dropouts far worse then any SB I own when doing the same volume fiddling. I ended up going with a DAC because it's so bad.

Reply 16 of 17, by MattRocks

User metadata
Rank Newbie
Rank
Newbie
Dothan Burger wrote on Today, 18:10:

I can make any Sound card I own make pops and such in 98 by fiddling with the volume control rapidly. Does age really effect ones ability to hear pops? I'm not so sure man...

The Z690-I in my main rig has the ALC4080 codec which is a giant turd, and has pops and dropouts far worse then any SB I own when doing the same volume fiddling. I ended up going with a DAC because it's so bad.

Volume fiddling? That is an entirely different problem. Drop outs during volume fiddling could happen when the audio codec/driver is reconfiguring the signal path in response to the volume change request - it is something that is going to impact USB-based solutions more than PCI-based solutions.

PCI-based solutions (e.g. SB Live) have different challenges, such as jitter in the circuits caused by electrical interference. I mentioned the Windows startup sound suffering from interference, and the Windows startup sound involves data transfer across various busses (IDE,CPU, RAM, PCI, DSP, DAC, etc.) with software drivers only influencing the outcome through DMA implementation and maybe resampling.

Internal DACs (ALC4080, PCI cards, etc.) are exposed to masses of electronic noise (fast digital switching, rotating fans, giant capacitors in the PSU). In contrast, external DACs have their own isolated power and a lot less interference to deal with. But, we should expect engineers to have worked hard to mitigate the noise as best they can - this is why we observe big differences between cheap OEM cards and costly prosumer cards when both use the same DSP.

When we compare PCI sound cards we compare how well they handle their real world environments. I have broadcast Digigram boards that are smothered in capacitors to smooth out background noise (very big), and I have cheap sound chips with minimal isolation (very small), and I cannot expect them to be in the same class.

So, when we compare sound cards we need to compare against real world direct competitors (e.g. what was best in a particular era or cost bracket). If we compare "free" on board office audio to a >$1m Disney sound studio, what are we even comparing?

For me the fun is getting any product to punch above its weight, so I'd be interested in modding the ALC4080 to match the external DAC (possibly impossible). But, everyone is trying to achieve something different.

Reply 17 of 17, by Dothan Burger

User metadata
Rank Member
Rank
Member
MattRocks wrote on Today, 18:26:
Dothan Burger wrote on Today, 18:10:

I can make any Sound card I own make pops and such in 98 by fiddling with the volume control rapidly. Does age really effect ones ability to hear pops? I'm not so sure man...

The Z690-I in my main rig has the ALC4080 codec which is a giant turd, and has pops and dropouts far worse then any SB I own when doing the same volume fiddling. I ended up going with a DAC because it's so bad.

Volume fiddling? That is an entirely different problem. Drop outs during volume fiddling could happen when the audio codec/driver is reconfiguring the signal path in response to the volume change request - it is something that is going to impact USB-based solutions more than PCI-based solutions.

Both the External DAC and the ALC4080 are connected to USB though. I can fiddle with the volume to my hearts content now.