Hi,

Nice design, I wish my collection would be that organized 😀, one thing that might improve it a bit is to have Ethernet cards and a switch/router to easier transferring of files between the computers, so if you wish to try the same game/application on multiple HW then you wouldn't have to transfer the files manually with floppies (of course I still like handling floppies for nostalgia time to time 😁, but networking makes things easier). I think every PC build in the list with the possible exception of the NuXT has the capability of hosting an Ethernet card.

I found this one a bit weird in this collection:

RetroPCCupboard wrote on Yesterday, 22:18:

2 ) Pseudo 386 PC made from Pentium 166 @ 100Mhz, caches disabled and ISA video card, Soundblaster Pro 2. DOS 6.22

Each other PC has a period correct processor, but this one is pretending to be a 386, however the performance characteristic of a Pentium differs too much from a 386 to be considered a 100% reproduction of the experience, I know that actual 386-es are starting to get expensive depending on the budget you have, but even with caches disabled and under-clocking, the Pentium will most likely beat the 386 in a lot of ways, and more like a slower 486 in overall performance(especially if FPU calculations are involved, but that only matters if you wish to run productivity software from that era, DOS games with a few exceptions like Quake doesn't really use the FPU).

MagefromAntares wrote on Yesterday, 22:59:

Hi,

Nice design, I wish my collection would be that organized 😀, one thing that might improve it a bit is to have Ethernet cards and a switch/router to easier transferring of files between the computers

Yes, good point. I forgot to mention file transfers. Above this cupboard will be a NAS and 8 port gigabit switch. This network will be isolated from my main network. The NAS (based on Unraid) will have two network cards. One on my main network, and one on my retro network. So everything can access it, but the retro PCs wont be directly exposed to the internet.

I wasn't intending to network the two DOS machines. But the NuXT will be connected to the 1.4Ghz thunderbird via parallel port. I intend to do software development for the NuXT on the Thunderbird, and transfer data to the NUXT using DDLINK.

Both DOS machines will also use IDE to CF adapters with access to them from the case front. So larger transfers can be done to them by taking out the CF and plugging it into a USB CF adapter.

MagefromAntares wrote on Yesterday, 22:59:

Each other PC has a period correct processor, but this one is pretending to be a 386, however the performance characteristic of a Pentium differs too much from a 386 to be considered a 100% reproduction of the experience

Yes, this is true. It was a compromise I was willing to make for the flexibility it offers. The ISA Video card also helps with bottlenecking the CPU further.

I have tried Wing Commander 1 and 2 on it (on test bench), and several of the Lucus Arts and Serria adventures on it, and they work fine. I didn’t notice any speed changes as the number of enemies on screen vary. I expect there will be some 386-era games that don't work well but I haven't found any yet. Do you know of any examples games where this is an issue?

One game previously mentioned to me as an issue was the intro in Police Quest II, but the version I have seems to work fine (must have been patched):

https://youtu.be/C900PY0svAk?si=V0Y_u8N4uRh0dBi4

The GOG version does have a speed issue though, but it is only in the intro.

If I have issues, I am considering making a throttle blaster for it:

https://youtu.be/9uNml2j6sy0?si=pNC4SlOBMuZFwEyY

This will basically allow me to slow the pentium by drastically reducing its clock speed. Not by actually slowing the clock, but by rapidly toggling a pin that makes it ignore the clock.

RetroPCCupboard wrote on Today, 04:48:

Do you know of any examples games where this is an issue?

If I remember correctly, it is not exactly 386 era as it is a 486 game, but the original System Shock detects the type of CPU and sets itself up to run according to that, and on that system the game will attempt to run as on a Pentium instead of like on a 486 and without the cache enabled it will be like watching a comic book instead of watching a game 😁(I cannot find online references for that, mostly because searching for System Shock often times returns the remake instead of the original game now). So games that autodetect the CPU will be confused by having the Pentium instructions there, but not having the cache will result in sub-optimal execution. However for those games the fix is to simply restore the Pentium's clock frequency and cache, but getting into the BIOS to make a game running is a bit annoying.

One more thing, not related to the Pentium, that might improve this setup is to have an UPS hooked up to the development machine, power outages always come at the worst possible times, and I always like to have the machine I'm doing coding on plugged into an UPS, however Win98 SE is not yet capable of doing a clean saving the files auto-shutdown in case it detects that it is on UPS(Actually it might not be capable of detecting whether it is on UPS battery power or line power), so to have this functionality you have to connect the monitor and the KVM switch to the UPS too so you can manually save the files in case of an outage, the KVM switches usually isn't too needy about what kind of power they are getting, but for the monitor, depending on type, you might need an UPS outputting a pure sine wave, not a simulated one.

MagefromAntares wrote on Today, 05:41:

If I remember correctly, it is not exactly 386 era as it is a 486 game, but the original System Shock detects the type of CPU and sets itself up to run according to that, and on that system the game will attempt to run as on a Pentium instead of like on a 486 and without the cache enabled it will be like watching a comic book instead of watching a game 😁

Ok, but I would run Pentium-era games on the Pentium MMX 233Mhz, not the Pseudo 386. You might be correct for games that don't recognise a Pentium, and try to run as a 486. The Pentium MMX 233Mhz system can also be slowed down by disabling caches, but at it's slowest, is still quite a bit faster than the Pseudo 386. The Pseudo 386 can actually slow down to the speed of a fast 286, in some benchmarks, and the Pentium 233Mhz can slow down to the speed of a 486 25Mhz.

MagefromAntares wrote on Today, 05:41:

One more thing, not related to the Pentium, that might improve this setup is to have an UPS hooked up to the development machine, power outages always come at the worst possible times,

Thanks. That's a good tip. Though I am not sure I will have the space for a UPS. The back of this cupboard is basically going to be stuffed with cabling. The KVM will be wall mounted at the back. No physical access to it once the PCs are in. I will use keystrokes to switch to the active PC. The subwoofer for the speakers will also be in there at the back.

Interesting setup. Any issues with heat dissipation? I imagine you probably won't be using more than one PC at the same time, but they are fairly tightly packed, so I'm wondering if you checked their working temperatures under full load.

Also, that last PC might be a bit underpowered for some 2004-2005 era WinXP games, but that may depend on which resolution you intend to use. Off hand, I think Doom 3, Quake 4 and F.E.A.R. might not run optimally on it when fully maxed out (including AA+AF), so I would play those on a higher end WinXP system with a Core2 Duo and an 8800 GTX or something even newer.

Joseph_Joestar wrote on Today, 07:19:

Interesting setup. Any issues with heat dissipation? I imagine you probably won't be using more than one PC at the same time, but they are fairly tightly packed, so I'm wondering if you checked their working temperatures under full load.

You are right, I haven't noticed this reviewing this setup because I assumed that at most two of the computers would be active at the same time (The development machine and one of the others), but if all of the machines run at the same time it will result in thermal throttling for the newer ones and might even cause damage to the ones too old to do thermal throttling.

One way to fix this is to install an exhaust fan somewhere at the top of the cabinet and an air inlet at the bottom, then checking if the air flows freely between the shelves, there are silent fans that can be used for that purpose, so it wouldn't be
annoying.

Joseph_Joestar wrote on Today, 07:19:

Interesting setup. Any issues with heat dissipation? I imagine you probably won't be using more than one PC at the same time, but they are fairly tightly packed, so I'm wondering if you checked their working temperatures under full load.

MagefromAntares wrote on Today, 07:32:

One way to fix this is to install an exhaust fan somewhere at the top of the cabinet and an air inlet at the bottom, then checking if the air flows freely between the shelves, there are silent fans that can be used for that purpose, so it wouldn't be
annoying.

You are both correct. The CRT itself generates a lot of heat. As does the Thunderbird 1.4Ghz. The Northwood P4 with Geforce 4600 I also expect to be toasty due to being in a Micro ATX case (I haven't built it yet). The Radeon 9800 will be in full tower case at the top, with a Zalman cooler on it, to give it the best chance of keeping cool. I know these are prone to failure due to heat.

Above the cupboard is the loft area of my house. I intend to have two 120mm fans at the top to dump heat in to the loft, and a fan blowing upwards at each shelf level at the back to direct the heat up there.

As you both correctly assume, I will usually only have one PC on at a time. Two at most.

Joseph_Joestar wrote on Today, 07:19:

Also, that last PC might be a bit underpowered for some 2004-2005 era WinXP games, but that may depend on which resolution you intend to use. Off hand, I think Doom 3, Quake 4 and F.E.A.R. might not run optimally on it when fully maxed out (including AA+AF), so I would play those on a higher end WinXP system with a Core2 Duo and an 8800 GTX or something even newer.

Yes, you are correct. I most likely will be using a faster PC for the more demanding games. It is only if I specifically want to play it on a CRT that I would use the XP machine here. I have parts for two more areas of the room:

Other PCs to be hooked up to my standing desk Retro area with 1600x1200 IPS LCD:

Super Ultimate Windows 98
Core 2 Duo X6800 @2.93Ghz
Intel 865 Chipset
512mb DDR RAM
Geforce 5900 Ultra
Audigy 2 ZS

WinXP (2005-2007) Gaming
DirectX 9.0c
Core 2 Duo E8600 3.33Ghz (August 2008)
nVidia nForce 780i Chipset
2Gb DDR RAM
2x Geforce 7900 512Mb in SLI (March 2006)
ICute Jet Tower

Late WinXP (2006-2010), Windows Vista
DirectX 10.0
4Gb DDR3 RAM
ASUS P8H61-M with i5 3570 @3.8Ghz (April 2012)
2x Geforce 285 GTX 1024Mb in SLI(January 2009)
Auzentech Prelude 7.1 Sound Blaster X-FI
ICute Jet Tower

Connected to 1440p 144hz 27" LCD:

Windows 7 / Windows 11 Web Browsing
11400F
GTX 1080
32Gb RAM

Ultimate Win XP / XP Game Dev
16Gb DDR3 RAM
ASUS P8Z77-M with i7 3770k @3.9Ghz (April 2012)
Geforce GTX 980 Ti 6Gb (June 2015)
Creative Sound Blaster X-FI

RetroPCCupboard wrote on Today, 07:54:

Super Ultimate Windows 98 Core 2 Duo X6800 @2.93Ghz Intel 865 Chipset 512mb DDR RAM Geforce 5900 Ultra Audigy 2 ZS […]
Show full quote

Super Ultimate Windows 98
Core 2 Duo X6800 @2.93Ghz
Intel 865 Chipset
512mb DDR RAM
Geforce 5900 Ultra
Audigy 2 ZS

I think the second core of that X6800 will be very lonely running Win98, also Win98 sometimes get unstable with more than one core present, so it might have to be disabled in the BIOS, which may or may not support disabling it.

MagefromAntares wrote on Today, 08:07:

I think the second core of that X6800 will be very lonely running Win98, also Win98 sometimes get unstable with more than one core present, so it might have to be disabled in the BIOS, which may or may not support disabling it.

I have had this PC built for a couple of years now. Whilst some games don't work, the majority of them do.

I don't think I saw it mentioned, but what about MT-32 / General MIDI support?

The SB16 will have problems with the GM hanging note bug, so that's something to consider if you want to pursue GM, particularly on the Pentium MMX 233 system.

jh80 wrote on Today, 08:32:

I don't think I saw it mentioned, but what about MT-32 / General MIDI support?

The SB16 will have problems with the GM hanging note bug, so that's something to consider if you want to pursue GM, particularly on the Pentium MMX 233 system.

I won't be using any external midi devices. But I will be using wavetable modules. I have X2, S2 and a Diamond module. My soundblasters are CT2290 and CT2230, which don't have the type 1 hanging note bug.

MagefromAntares wrote on Today, 08:07:

I think the second core of that X6800 will be very lonely running Win98, also Win98 sometimes get unstable with more than one core present, so it might have to be disabled in the BIOS, which may or may not support disabling it.

Just realised my earlier response may have sounded a little ungrateful. It wasn't meant that way. I appreciated you highlighting the potential issue. I think the windows 98 scheduler not being multi-core aware means that it the second core is effectively ignored and unused. You are right though that a single core CPU would be a better fit. The GPU is clearly the bottleneck in this build. The good thing about the Core 2 Duo though is that it doesn't get as hot as a P4.

RetroPCCupboard wrote on 30 minutes ago:

MagefromAntares wrote on Today, 08:07:

I think the second core of that X6800 will be very lonely running Win98, also Win98 sometimes get unstable with more than one core present, so it might have to be disabled in the BIOS, which may or may not support disabling it.

Just realised my earlier response may have sounded a little ungrateful. It wasn't meant that way. I appreciated you highlighting the potential issue. I think the windows 98 scheduler not being multi-core aware means that it the second core is effectively ignored and unused. You are right though that a single core CPU would be a better fit. The GPU is clearly the bottleneck in this build. The good thing about the Core 2 Duo though is that it doesn't get as hot as a P4.

Don't worry I didn't take it that way, I also misinterpreted the "to be hooked up" as systems that are being assembled or just assembled, if I knew it was a system that was reliably running for years I wouldn't have made that comment 😀.