dr.zeissler wrote on Yesterday, 16:48:

For the gfx, I avoid Nvidia Cards. My favorites are matrox mystique, matrox G200, ati-rage

this is the exact opposite of what you should recommend for dos games
https://gona.mactar.hu/DOS_TESTS/

To my eyes, the SLOT1 is the most perfect platform to use for a 3dfx/dos-highend hybrid. So put a voodoo1 in it with a very good AGP-Card (ATI/Matrox) and go for the late hires-vesa games in dos. To my eyes the later 3D stuff can be played better and much more detailed with actual ports for actual hardware. Take e.g. unreal ? I would never play unreal on a P2/3 500Mhz while I have seen it with 4/8GB Textures in 1080p on my Mac mini M1. That is a totally different game, but as I said that does not count for the very early stuff...respectively dosgilde.

kingcake wrote on Yesterday, 17:22:

dr.zeissler wrote on Yesterday, 16:48:

For the gfx, I avoid Nvidia Cards. My favorites are matrox mystique, matrox G200, ati-rage

this is the exact opposite of what you should recommend for dos games
https://gona.mactar.hu/DOS_TESTS/

you missed my point on that, who will play the old early EGA jittery games that even jitter on real early ega-cards. If playing these is you goal than go for a 286/386/486 with an ISA card. Who will play those games on a P2 even if downclocked. You should always consider what is the favorite software you would like to run and then build the machine for this software.

If you stretch the bar too wide then you will make those run on the fast P2 but that might come with a much worse image-quality, shitty win3x fonts and drivers...
I would prefer having a sharp clean image and a wide driver support (OS/2,Win3x,Win9x,WinNt, Amithlon, Linux, Nextstep etc.). But I can only speak for myself.

Intel i740 also has good quality video signal, and has OK DOS compatibility. I would prefer nVidia Riva 128 or TNT for 3D gaming in Windows though.

kingcake wrote on Yesterday, 16:24:

Some Aztech cards are pretty good. Many have real Yamaha OPL chips. Pretty comprehensive info on them over at DosDays: https://www.dosdays.co.uk/topics/Manufacturers/aztech.php

kingcake wrote on Yesterday, 16:27:

An ESS, Yamaha or older SB card would be much better for DOS. Again, people seem a little misguided here. AWE64s no longer have true OPL and emulate it. It sounds terrible. Look for demos on youtube vs ESSFM.

Yeah, True OPL would be the best. But if emulation is good or even decent, I may not mind options that emulates it. If the AWE64s have terrible emulation of it, then I'll skip them.

dr.zeissler wrote on Yesterday, 16:48:

I second that, but it depends what you want to play with the machine. If you are REALLY into early Dos-Gaming and need an authe […]
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I second that, but it depends what you want to play with the machine.
If you are REALLY into early Dos-Gaming and need an authentic OPL3 sound, then go for a card with a real OPL3 or take the next best thing that is an ESS-Card with ESSFM.

These sound really different on different OPL chips. The "percussion" sounds terrible-sweeping on some chips.
https://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=8447 https://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=8448

If ESSFM would be natively supported this is possible on FM!
https://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=96920

If you ask me, if you use a P2 machine (even down clocked to 133 Mhz), you are NOT! into early dos-gaming (286/386/486) and therefore do not require a card with a real OPL3! If so, one of the really best, very compatible and bugfree-midi-support and fairly cheap option is the CT4170. I really love it. It sounds very clean, but OPL-Sound depends on the game/demo. Can sound good, can sound bad but soundblaster in Dos works 100% with it and it sounds so much better than the early noisy cards from creative!

I won't recommend an Aztec card, there are a lot of them that have a real OPL3 chip (sometimes even a real on but rebranded) BUT! the SB sounds bad and it is not 100% compatible. The crystal-chips are better, but they do offer the worst OPL implementation. Yamaha is also a good option but I would recommend either a CT4170 or a ESS Card.

For the gfx, I avoid Nvidia Cards. My favorites are matrox mystique, matrox G200, ati-rage, or some really older VESA 1.2 supported cards, but for your P2 I would not use such old cards. Image quality and driver-support are my goals. It's a bit hard, it's neither "fish or flesh" as we call it here. Too slow for 3dfx in 133mhz mode but too fast for most dos-games. Yes I know the duke3d... but these can be played in hires in windows with a win32 port.

For a REAL dos machine think about a DX2/66...

That's a good chunk of info. Now, I probably won't play lots of early DOS games. It's unlikely that I will but not 100% impossible. So an ESS can be done, but I've also read good opinions about Opti cards, that appear to be good OPL3 clones. Aztec cards, as you said, it depends if they have the OPL3 chip, but if SB sound is bad then it may be good to skip them. And Crystal too I've read their OPL3 implementation is not great, but they are pretty good at SB emulation.

For CT4170... I dunnow, I haven't read really stellar opinions about them for the price I can find them. Mind you, they are cheap, but not cheaper than some ESS or Opti options with true OPL3 or good clone.

Yup, this is helping me clear the confution a bit, since I alredy said I'm looking for the best compromise for the cost, not the "overall best".

For video I refered to that spread sheet it was posted before (I had saw it alredy a few weeks ago). For now I just got a GF2 MX400 for very very cheap, 128bit bus for sure and thorughly tested by a local professional reseller. It's not stellar for DOS, being only decent, but if I go the Windows 95 route, it could be helpful in some early 3D accelerated windows game.
But for DOS and just pure output (without 3D acceleration), I think that some sort of S3 Virge is the way to go. They are cheap AF, can be installed on the PCI slot, meaning I don't have to constanlty swap out card when I wanna play in real DOS mode, and I don't really mind that their 3D reputation is more of "decelerators". At that point, since it's unlikely I'll ever play older speed sensitive DOS games, I can just get an even better CPU to really push the software renderer of early 3D DOS games.
And for actually early DOS games, a Socket 7 system may be my next step backwards in time.

kingcake wrote on Yesterday, 17:22:

this is the exact opposite of what you should recommend for dos games
https://gona.mactar.hu/DOS_TESTS/

Yup, that's why I fired alredy on an extremely cheap GF2 MX400 with a 128bit bus. Based on that list is a decent compromise for both Windows 3D and some DOS. Then I just need to pair an S3 Virge in a PCI slot for all the DOS stuff that won't work on the nVidia card.

dr.zeissler wrote on Yesterday, 17:26:

To my eyes, the SLOT1 is the most perfect platform to use for a 3dfx/dos-highend hybrid. So put a voodoo1 in it with a very good AGP-Card (ATI/Matrox) and go for the late hires-vesa games in dos. To my eyes the later 3D stuff can be played better and much more detailed with actual ports for actual hardware. Take e.g. unreal ? I would never play unreal on a P2/3 500Mhz while I have seen it with 4/8GB Textures in 1080p on my Mac mini M1. That is a totally different game, but as I said that does not count for the very early stuff...respectively dosgilde.

If it wasn't for the prices of Voodoo1s, I would get one. And if Voodoo Banshees and Voodoo3s had better 3D DOS compatibility, I would bite the bullet and get me one of those.
Unfortunatelly it appears that both are not really the case.
And about playing games on modern hardware... I alredy do. I just LOVE to also play stuff on the machines they were meant to be played, or at least close to it. Because I don't believe people just stopped entirely playing Doom II when 3D accelerated Quake dropped.

dr.zeissler wrote on Yesterday, 17:29:

you missed my point on that, who will play the old early EGA jittery games that even jitter on real early ega-cards. If playing these is you goal than go for a 286/386/486 with an ISA card. Who will play those games on a P2 even if downclocked. You should always consider what is the favorite software you would like to run and then build the machine for this software.

If you stretch the bar too wide then you will make those run on the fast P2 but that might come with a much worse image-quality, shitty win3x fonts and drivers...
I would prefer having a sharp clean image and a wide driver support (OS/2,Win3x,Win9x,WinNt, Amithlon, Linux, Nextstep etc.). But I can only speak for myself.

Don't worry, it's highly unlikely that I will play such old games on this sistem. If they run, ok, if they don't... I mean, I'm all covered from 1998 to today, so I can only go back with my next builds. And "non super" socket 7 boards can be had for relatively cheap.

RetroPCCupboard wrote on Yesterday, 19:43:

Intel i740 also has good quality video signal, and has OK DOS compatibility. I would prefer nVidia Riva 128 or TNT for 3D gaming in Windows though.

I actually never considered and Intel GPU for this build. But, as you said, nVidia is still a preferable alternative. I would've loved a full fledge TNT2, but only M64 can be had for cheap and, at that point, I just went and got a 128bit GF2 MX400 for really cheap.

kingcake wrote on Yesterday, 06:45:

For sound I prefer ESS Audio Drives. To my ear ESSFM sounds the best.

RetroPCCupboard wrote on Yesterday, 09:59:

ESS Audiodrive is a good card too, and also you can get generic Yamaha OPL3 ISA cards. My preference for SB16 is mostly based on nostalgia, and usually they just work.

RetroPCCupboard wrote on Yesterday, 10:18:

ESS Audiodrive, Yamaha and SB16 are all that I have used in the form of ISA cards.

Quick question to all the people that suggested ESS: I've found many barebone looking AudioDrive ES1868F, some of them from COMPAQ, barebone as missing headers and lots of chips on the PCB itself.
Also saw an AudioDrive ES688FC with a PCB packed full of stuff.

What's the deal with all these variants? Are they roughly equivalent or should I avoid like the plague some of them?

Mondodimotori wrote on Yesterday, 19:52:

And about playing games on modern hardware... I alredy do. I just LOVE to also play stuff on the machines they were meant to be played, or at least close to it. Because I don't believe people just stopped entirely playing Doom II when 3D accelerated Quake dropped.

I'm totally on your page on this one! If it wasn't that case, none of us would even be playing any retro games, as there are modern equivalents of most of them ..

H3nrik V! wrote on Today, 08:50:

I'm totally on your page on this one! If it wasn't that case, none of us would even be playing any retro games, as there are modern equivalents of most of them ..

Exactly!

BTW, I was lucky enough to find a seller here in Italy selling an ESS Audiodrive ES1868F with a pretty generic title for the listing. I found it because he was also selling a Sound Blaster Live! SB0060 that appeared in my feed, which shoul be good for my 9x retro system. So I got both of them.
The ES1868F is this model exactly, and it's nice to have some documentation about this specific model.

Now I gotta decide, since this one is not an OPL3 implementation, but ESS own great FM implementation, if it's worth to find cheap cards that comes with an actual Yamaha OPL3 chip.

Oh yeah, now all that's missing is a 2D card with good compatibility, either an S3Trio or S3 Virge.