VOGONS


Retro computers and wikipedia

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First post, by Tetrium

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Don't know if someone else noticed the wiki page on retrogaming or retro computers, but has anyone else noticed it's biased in completely leaving out retro PC's?

I'm pretty sure that at the least the wiki page about retro computing and retrogaming is either outdated, or biased.

Just a couple examples:
Included on the wiki retrocomputing page are:
-MITS Inc.
-IMSAI
-SWTPC
-Apple Inc.
-IBM (and mainly XT's)
-Acorn BBC & Archimedes
-Tandy/Radio Shack
-Sinclair
-Robotron

Things that are completely excluded are:
-3DFX!!!!!
-Creative Soundblaster
-Any mention about clone PC's
-Windows (and particularly Windows 9x)
-Wavetable daughterboards
-...anyone else seeing where I'm getting at?
Something is obviously wrong here.

Who is writing all this stuff anyway?¿?

Might as well include the retrogaming page

The second paragraph mentions this:

Among the most popular retro games are those produced around the 1980s[citation needed] and 1990s, and include video games for consoles such as the Atari 2600, Nintendo Entertainment System, Sega Master System, Mega Drive, Super NES, PlayStation, and Nintendo 64, as well as personal computer games for the Commodore 64, MSX, ZX81, ZX Spectrum, Amstrad CPC, NEC PC-88, PC-98, Sharp X1, FM-7 and DOS platforms

No Windows games? Since when are Windows 9x games not amongst the most popular for retro gaming?

Seriously, who is writing this shit?!?

/endrant

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Reply 2 of 98, by sliderider

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Wikipedia sucks anyway. I did a rewrite of a paragraph about the Commodore Plus 4 computer that was in error and it was changed back within an hour. They said something really dumb like you couldn't play games on it because it couldn't do sprites and sound effects at the same time because it didn't have a dedicated sprite generator like on the C64 and I have plenty of games for mine that proves them wrong.

Reply 3 of 98, by Tetrium

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Dominus wrote:

Seriously? It's wikipedia, you can
A) look up who's writing this and
B) add or change the articles yourself

Oook...guess I'll need to find out how wiki works, but reading slideriders's comment doesn't really bode well.
Isn't there somekind of voting option or discussion forum about wiki articles?

The pages I mentioned are so one-sided, it's leaving out a lot of good stuff as well as remaining one sided.

How can retrogaming and 3DFX not be mentioned on the same page? Same goes for retrogaming and Windows 98?

But I agree about wiki having it's flaws. I'd like to find out who wrote these articles and see what can be done about them.
If it's possible to block any edits by a single angry man, then what good can wiki be, right? 😜

Edit: Found a main index page, here.

Apparently when one thinks of retrocomputing, then it's obvious someone will think of the operating system Wheels, I mean, who would even think about Windows?

Sorry, but I find these pages to be very sad. It's bordering idiocy.

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Reply 4 of 98, by h-a-l-9000

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The definition of retro may be the problem 😀
3DFX/Windows stuff is just not old enough.

1+1=10

Reply 5 of 98, by Tetrium

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But 3DFX stuff is old enough 😜

Btw, found some more strange things. Since when is a Mac considered to be a PC ?!?!?

Someone needs to use a bulldozer here to clean up -_-

Edit: Did you know that even Apple itself doesn't consider it's computers PC's?

Last edited by Tetrium on 2011-07-16, 14:29. Edited 1 time in total.

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Reply 6 of 98, by Zup

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I'll put 3Dfx in... they built the first succesful 3D card and now they are defunct (and so the Glide API).

Creative and soundblaster are still alive and in use, but some things like Waveblaster modules and MIDI music in games are dissapearing.

Clone PCs... there are SO many of them... except some "strange" things (Olivetti PC1, Olivetti M24 with their compatibilities issues, or some Amstrad models that sold very well) they are not so different to justify articles about them (IMHO).

Windows 9x is not that retro... most things can be (mostly) executed in modern systems.

I have traveled across the universe and through the years to find Her.
Sometimes going all the way is just a start...

I'm selling some stuff!

Reply 7 of 98, by Tetrium

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Zup wrote:

Clone PCs... there are SO many of them... except some "strange" things (Olivetti PC1, Olivetti M24 with their compatibilities issues, or some Amstrad models that sold very well) they are not so different to justify articles about them (IMHO).

But the reasoning doesn't make sense. Why exclude the most popular one of the bunch here?!?!?

Zup wrote:

Windows 9x is not that retro... most things can be (mostly) executed in modern systems.

And so can DOS games (using dosbox). And so can Nintendo games (using an emulator). Heck, even MAC games can be played in Windows 7 by using VPC

Last edited by Tetrium on 2011-07-16, 14:32. Edited 1 time in total.

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Reply 8 of 98, by Dominus

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Tetrium wrote:

But 3DFX stuff is old enough 😜

Btw, found some more strange things. Since when is a Mac considered to be a PC ?!?!?

Someone needs to use a bulldozer here to clean up -_-

You really like to complain do you?
From the definition that page gives on personal computers, macs fit. Apple tried to differ with the "I'm a Mac/I'm a PC" spots but I'm hard pressed to say what the differences are.
Different OS? OS X is a Unix runs on non-macs.
The hardware? Not much difference.
But you have a problem with it, so you should have the right answer...

Reply 9 of 98, by Tetrium

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Dominus wrote:
You really like to complain do you? From the definition that page gives on personal computers, macs fit. Apple tried to differ w […]
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Tetrium wrote:

But 3DFX stuff is old enough 😜

Btw, found some more strange things. Since when is a Mac considered to be a PC ?!?!?

Someone needs to use a bulldozer here to clean up -_-

You really like to complain do you?
From the definition that page gives on personal computers, macs fit. Apple tried to differ with the "I'm a Mac/I'm a PC" spots but I'm hard pressed to say what the differences are.
Different OS? OS X is a Unix runs on non-macs.
The hardware? Not much difference.
But you have a problem with it, so you should have the right answer...

I think my complaints are valid. I think the list in my 1st post is pretty self-explanatory.

Edit:Here goes:
Part of finding the right answer is in identifying what is wrong with the current answer.
Excluding things like 3DFX and even anything that's considered a clone PC is out of reality when one thinks of retrogaming.

I mean, how can a clone PC made in 1995 used exclusively for playing old games not be considered retrogaming??

Last edited by Tetrium on 2011-07-16, 14:37. Edited 1 time in total.

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Reply 10 of 98, by h-a-l-9000

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Would you call cars made in 1990 retro? 😜

1+1=10

Reply 11 of 98, by Tetrium

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h-a-l-9000 wrote:

Would you call cars made in 1990 retro? 😜

That route?
Ok, would you consider a car made in 1985 or 1980 vintage?

Edit:This discussion is starting to turn into something interesting btw. I'll wait for any further editing until I let the results of this discussion sink in first 😉

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Reply 12 of 98, by Dominus

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Tetrium wrote:
I think my complaints are valid. I think the list in my 1st post is pretty self-explanatory. […]
Show full quote
Dominus wrote:
You really like to complain do you? From the definition that page gives on personal computers, macs fit. Apple tried to differ w […]
Show full quote
Tetrium wrote:

But 3DFX stuff is old enough 😜

Btw, found some more strange things. Since when is a Mac considered to be a PC ?!?!?

Someone needs to use a bulldozer here to clean up -_-

You really like to complain do you?
From the definition that page gives on personal computers, macs fit. Apple tried to differ with the "I'm a Mac/I'm a PC" spots but I'm hard pressed to say what the differences are.
Different OS? OS X is a Unix runs on non-macs.
The hardware? Not much difference.
But you have a problem with it, so you should have the right answer...

I think my complaints are valid. I think the list in my 1st post is pretty self-explanatory.

Edit:Here goes:
Part of finding the right answer is in identifying what is wrong with the current answer.
Excluding things like 3DFX and even anything that's considered a clone PC is out of reality when one thinks of retrogaming.

I mean, how can a clone PC made in 1995 used exclusively for playing old games not be considered retrogaming??

More complaining and no answers... What about your Mac complaining?
(I'm hard pressed to use the word complaining and not a different word).

Again, instead of complaining around this topic, write a good article yourself or rewrite the wiki article and post it there for reviewing. Wikipedia is about contributing and not about complaining.
But yes, when your changes are shot down, feel free to complain to whoever cares 😀

Reply 14 of 98, by Tetrium

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Dominus wrote:

and maybe *retro* needs some definition.

Heres one

And about the complaining thing. Like I mentioned before, I was only asking for feedback about what I have found. Asking someone to write a whole new article on wiki who has already mentioned hasn't got any experience with actually writing anything for wiki is unrealistic. As I already mentioned, I have no experience with editing wiki pages.

What you propose is like telling someone to swim across the English channel when that same person told you 5 minutes before he can't even swim 😜

Still, my points (instead of complaints, mind you) are valid.
Wiki should be a good read where the majority of people can relate to what is written there. Not even mentioning 3DFX and clone PC's on a page about retrogaming and retro computers is I think something that's obviously wrong and doesn't merit to be called a "complaint" in the negative way thank you!

Whats missing in your collections?
My retro rigs (old topic)
Interesting Vogons threads (links to Vogonswiki)
Report spammers here!

Reply 15 of 98, by Tetrium

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Dominus wrote:

But yes, when your changes are shot down, feel free to complain to whoever cares 😀

And who would even want to shoot these changes down btw? I've read some general articles on the wiki about how pages are set up.

I don't understand why someone would even remove 3DFX from a page mentioning retrogaming. Or are you telling me theres people who will actually remove 3DFX from a retrogaming page?

We both know that's plain wrong

Noone today would build a Voodoo 2 SLI rig for any other reason then for retrogaming.

Edit:Btw, are there any discussion pages linked to their articles??

Edit2:Even if my changes were to get shot down, what's stopping me from shooting the shot down changes down?

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Reply 16 of 98, by Dominus

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Tetrium wrote:
Heres one […]
Show full quote
Dominus wrote:

and maybe *retro* needs some definition.

Heres one

And about the complaining thing. Like I mentioned before, I was only asking for feedback about what I have found. Asking someone to write a whole new article on wiki who has already mentioned hasn't got any experience with actually writing anything for wiki is unrealistic. As I already mentioned, I have no experience with editing wiki pages.

What you propose is like telling someone to swim across the English channel when that same person told you 5 minutes before he can't even swim 😜

Still, my points (instead of complaints, mind you) are valid.
Wiki should be a good read where the majority of people can relate to what is written there. Not even mentioning 3DFX and clone PC's on a page about retrogaming and retro computers is I think something that's obviously wrong and doesn't merit to be called a "complaint" in the negative way thank you!

No it's actualy telling someone to swim across the channel when that person just said that the swimmers who are doing that are doing it totally wrong.

And yes, wiki should be a good read etc. etc. You are right about that. But it needs to be written. If you feel that something is missing in a wiki article you need to add it yourself and not complain about it in another forum. The complaining part is not helping to better it.

Reply 17 of 98, by Tetrium

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Dominus wrote:

No it's actualy telling someone to swim across the channel when that person just said that the swimmers who are doing that are doing it totally wrong.

And yes, wiki should be a good read etc. etc. You are right about that. But it needs to be written. If you feel that something is missing in a wiki article you need to add it yourself and not complain about it in another forum. The complaining part is not helping to better it.

Irrelevant of the fact if they did it wrong or not, telling someone to swim across the English Challel who just mentioned he can't swim is the point, as the not being able to swim is the point here.

You told me to change the article. Fine, but I won't today. But you also give me the impression that there are actually people wanting to keep things the way they are and will simply undo everything I do, not because what I wrote was wrong, but because what I write doesn't agree with what the ones editing out my changes personally think things should be.

Anyway, does wiki have some kind of forum?

Edit:I'd like to know if theres some kind of forum where this can be discussed (other then Vogons). I'm collecting my thoughts atm on how to best approach this.
Rewriting an article isn't something that can be done overnight (or at least, not by me) and I want to make sure the article is as complete as can be.
But first I'll need to collect some data and theres plenty out there to find.

Anyone else have an opinion on the matter?

-------------Looooong edit here, so I split it------------------

Edit2:What is the difference between a retro computer and a vintage computer anyway?
And since when is a computer that obviously wasn't considered to be a vintage computer, considered to be a vintage computer?

The thing is (and the point h-a-l 9000 was trying to make) that computer history is relatively young and still subject to many changes as computers continue to evolve at a speed that is relatively faster then, say, cars, fashion, sculptures, architecture, you name it!

A painting that's made now won't be considered vintage in 20 years time. But when do we define a computer that's made now consider as vintage?
Was a computer made 20 years ago considered to be vintage 10 years ago, when it was just 10 years old? Or were back then the only vintage computers the so-called mainframes of the 70's?
By this definition, wouldn't a modern day quad core be considered vintage in 30 years? Or only after 50 years?

Does this mean that a computer that is now 10 years old, is considered to be vintage when it's hardware becomes 25 years old?
Who decides? The people? The writers of the wiki articles?

As computer history is still so young, logic would dictate that more and more computers will inevitably become retro and/or vintage with passing time. Not doing so would imply there should be a reason for doing so, just like there was apparently a reason to put the "vintage" stamp on a Commodore64 at some point in history.

Was the Commodore64 a vintage computer 5 years ago? If a Commodore64 made in 1982 is vintage today, this would indicate a 486DX33 should be vintage in 10 years, right?

Or is vintage simply when a computer reaches 25 years of age?

Retro otoh has a different meaning. An important value of retro is the feeling of nostalgia, doing something using something obsolete today, today with the main intend to relive the past.
Obviously using a 5 year old computer to play 5 year old games "may" be considered as retrogaming in a technical sense, but obviously most people wouldn't consider a 5 year old computer a retro computer.

Otoh, when someone scrapes together 10 year old hardware with the intend to use his or her leet Voodoo 2 SLI's to play Unreal, then the sole purpose of this computers existence becomes it's use with the intend to relive a game the way it was lived back then, 10 years ago.
Since such a computer basically has no right of existence except for being build to satisfy a thirst for gaming nostalgia, this is to be considered a retro gaming computer.

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Reply 18 of 98, by Jorpho

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The equivalent to a forum is an article's "Discussion" page.

I think it is difficult to include discussion of "clone PCs" since there is no definitive point when at which everything that could be run on an older computer suddenly couldn't be run on a newer computer. It's all very murky and trying to nail it down is just asking for trouble. I mean, can't you still use a PCI Voodoo card in a relatively recent PC, if you wanted to?

I might also argue that Glide wrappers allow 3DFX software to be run just fine on modern computers, and that you might as well start marking the distinction between graphics cards that support different versions of DirectX.

Reply 19 of 98, by Dominus

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Irrelevant of the fact if they did it wrong or not, telling someone to swim across the English Challel who just mentioned he can't swim is the point, as the not being able to swim is the point here.

No the point is that you are saying it is shit and only when told to do it better you are saying you can't do it (you see the picture this is drawing, we've all seen such people before). Anyway if you don't know how to write for Wikipedia then I guess you need to read the Wiki article on just that.

You told me to change the article. Fine, but I won't today. But you also give me the impression that there are actually people wanting to keep things the way they are and will simply undo everything I do, not because what I wrote was wrong, but because what I write doesn't agree with what the ones editing out my changes personally think things should be.

Wikipedia is moderated these days and if you start out by writing that the old page was shit you might get yourself banned. Same for starting a discussion on a wikipedia article on Wikipedia. You better not start off by calling the article shit. Incidentally this is what ticked me off about your thread start. Just because you don't agree on something doesn't warrant calling it shit.
Obviously the authors have a different view on what retro computers and retro gaming is. Calling it shit is not warranted.

(that said, to me Windows games are definitely not retrogames, just maybe Windows 3.x games. But Windows 95 upwards? Not in my opinion)

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