VOGONS


First post, by AlienBZ

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Back story:

I'm beginning my Apple training as a self-paced home-based independent addition (in my spare time) to my school (my school doesn't teach about macs) work for PC technician, and I'm thinking of taking in not only old (as well as new) PC's, also Mac/PC games that people no longer want but macintoshes as well and (again, old/new) once I finish school in 4 years and start my computer repair business.

I'd like to take in these old macs, fix/upgrade them and then somehow get a private pilot from the local county airport (after I contact/someone on retro gaming site contacts me for help/whatever that's computer & game related and then donate these older macs to retro mac gamers or to people living in poverty in outer countries in the computer technician Christian missionary field (as well as locally), so I think I'm planning a wise move with (during my first yr of school) acquiring older PC's (starting with W98 models and up to newest) as well as older macs (starting with imac G3/OS X Tiger) so I can do my hands-on training with these computers using not only my school books but the "For Dummies" books as well.

Ok, I'm (hopefully) in the process of buying a imac G3 running OS X Tiger in the near future as I have an Apple Training Series book for OS X 10.4 that I got for 31 cents on Amazon about a month ago, the book has hands-on lessons with Tiger in it, thus I've started looking for a used imac G3 running Tiger to do the hands-on lessons from this book on. This imac G3 is selling for $25.

Do you guys think my dream (to take in old/new computers/games, upgrade them, donate them) is a worthwhile endeavor once I start my computer business?

Am I being smart doing this and helping people as a tech this way?

Reply 1 of 19, by Mau1wurf1977

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I saw this documentary from the UK about organizations that donate old Computers to Africa and other regions. At first it seems all fine, but then they showed the computer graveyards over there. All computers that don't work anymore and as you might know they don't have the money or technology to recycle them.

So you have kids taking apart the bits and selling them. They often burn the insulators off the cables, releasing toxic gases and these kids don't have any masks...

So these donations are a way for companies to get around having to properly recycle (which costs money) their IT equipment.

So your thoughts are noble, but it's been done over and over and now nobody takes care of the computer junk in these countries. Out of sight, out of mind.

In terms of teaching yourself, nothing wrong with old computers. Most principles apply the exact same way.

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Reply 2 of 19, by Jorpho

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AlienBZ wrote:

once I finish school in 4 years and start my computer repair business.

I thought we went over this before. The market for used computers really isn't all that big. Of course, I don't know what the situation is in your specific area of the world, but if there are enough old PCs getting kicked to the curb that you think there might be a business opportunity, it implies that interest in them is not particularly high.

then somehow get a private pilot from the local county airport

I'm left pretty baffled here. An old Mac does not strike me as being particularly useful in a region primarily accessible by airplane.

Do you guys think my dream (to take in old/new computers/games, upgrade them, donate them) is a worthwhile endeavor once I start my computer business?

Am I being smart doing this and helping people as a tech this way?

You will inevitably end up surrounded by gigantic piles of old computer junk that no one wants and that you will have difficulty disposing of. I cannot see the appeal.

Besides, how exactly do you plan to get licenses for the operating systems for all these old machines? Not to mention monitors? CRTs are bulky, fragile, and difficult to store and transport, and even if people are chucking flatscreens by the dozen, I doubt those can take much punishment either.

And why old Macs, of all things? I suppose OS X might still be easy to use in some regards, but I did not have the impression that there was ever a tremendous number of games uniquely and ideally suited for OS X PPC; certainly, I doubt there's going to be much new stuff that will be easy to get running.

Reply 3 of 19, by sliderider

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Mau1wurf1977 wrote:
I saw this documentary from the UK about organizations that donate old Computers to Africa and other regions. At first it seems […]
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I saw this documentary from the UK about organizations that donate old Computers to Africa and other regions. At first it seems all fine, but then they showed the computer graveyards over there. All computers that don't work anymore and as you might know they don't have the money or technology to recycle them.

So you have kids taking apart the bits and selling them. They often burn the insulators off the cables, releasing toxic gases and these kids don't have any masks...

So these donations are a way for companies to get around having to properly recycle (which costs money) their IT equipment.

So your thoughts are noble, but it's been done over and over and now nobody takes care of the computer junk in these countries. Out of sight, out of mind.

In terms of teaching yourself, nothing wrong with old computers. Most principles apply the exact same way.

I would also say that a large number of the donated machines don't reach their intended recipients, either. The local warlord or rebel group probably seizes most of them and sells them to buy guns, drugs, or other black market goods that they can either use or resell at a profit. You should have seen the flak I took on some other forums when they started the One Laptop Per Child thing and I mentioned that fact. If they are stealing food and medicine donations intended for the poor, don't you think they'd steal computers, too? How many of those laptops intended for poor children ended up in the hands of terrorists, I wonder, who used them to co-ordinate with each other globally over the internet?

Reply 4 of 19, by Jorpho

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sliderider wrote:

If they are stealing food and medicine donations intended for the poor, don't you think they'd steal computers, too? How many of those laptops intended for poor children ended up in the hands of terrorists, I wonder, who used them to co-ordinate with each other globally over the internet?

I am intrigued by the idea, but it would be much more interesting if you had a reliable source confirming the existence of such practices.

Certainly, it's a heck of a lot easier to bargain with food and medicine than it is with computers, considering that people won't die without computers.

Reply 5 of 19, by sliderider

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Jorpho wrote:
sliderider wrote:

If they are stealing food and medicine donations intended for the poor, don't you think they'd steal computers, too? How many of those laptops intended for poor children ended up in the hands of terrorists, I wonder, who used them to co-ordinate with each other globally over the internet?

I am intrigued by the idea, but it would be much more interesting if you had a reliable source confirming the existence of such practices.

Certainly, it's a heck of a lot easier to bargain with food and medicine than it is with computers, considering that people won't die without computers.

A computer is a high value item that is easily transportable, and as I mentioned, terrorists can use them to communicate with each other globally or to hack government computers. So they have as much value to them as food or medicine. The parts can also be repurposed for things like missile guidance systems. A good sized village with several hundred children that receive these laptops would be an attractive target.

Reply 6 of 19, by Jorpho

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sliderider wrote:

A computer is a high value item that is easily transportable, and as I mentioned, terrorists can use them to communicate with each other globally or to hack government computers. So they have as much value to them as food or medicine.

...What terrorists are you referring to, specifically? A terrorist in a position to accomplish something by hacking a government computer is unlikely to also be simultaneously lacking in food and medicine.

The parts can also be used for other purposes, like guidance systems for rockets.

An organization in a position to obtain such munitions is not likely to end up having to build guidance systems from scratch out of old PC parts.

I daresay this is fantasy. But then again, I am not terribly familiar with stories of terrorists accomplishing anything with old computer parts or XO laptops, so if such stories exist, please enlighten me.

Reply 7 of 19, by sliderider

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Jorpho wrote:
...What terrorists are you referring to, specifically? A terrorist in a position to accomplish something by hacking a governmen […]
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sliderider wrote:

A computer is a high value item that is easily transportable, and as I mentioned, terrorists can use them to communicate with each other globally or to hack government computers. So they have as much value to them as food or medicine.

...What terrorists are you referring to, specifically? A terrorist in a position to accomplish something by hacking a government computer is unlikely to also be simultaneously lacking in food and medicine.

The parts can also be used for other purposes, like guidance systems for rockets.

An organization in a position to obtain such munitions is not likely to end up having to build guidance systems from scratch out of old PC parts.

Not necessarily. Munitions might be readily available but the systems to launch them may not be. Rebel/terrorist armies probably encounter this more often than you think. They might be able to get rockets, but not a launcher, or the launcher they are able to get is so outdated they couldn't hit the long side of a barn if they were standing right next to it. Not every wannabe terrorist or dictator is rich enough to afford the newest and best. Some of them still scrape by as best they can.

Reply 8 of 19, by Jorpho

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sliderider wrote:

Not necessarily. Munitions might be readily available but the systems to launch them may not be.

This does not make sense.

Not every wannabe terrorist or dictator is rich enough to afford the newest and best. Some of them still scrape by as best they can.

Yes, that's why they use suicide bombers and IEDs, which from most perspectives are far less problematic and require far less technical expertise than some kind of hacked-together guidance system.

But perhaps we should continue this in PMs rather than continuing to derail this thread.

Reply 9 of 19, by Mau1wurf1977

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sliderider wrote:

I would also say that a large number of the donated machines don't reach their intended recipients, either. The local warlord or rebel group probably seizes most of them and sells them to buy guns, drugs, or other black market goods that they can either use or resell at a profit. You should have seen the flak I took on some other forums when they started the One Laptop Per Child thing and I mentioned that fact. If they are stealing food and medicine donations intended for the poor, don't you think they'd steal computers, too? How many of those laptops intended for poor children ended up in the hands of terrorists, I wonder, who used them to co-ordinate with each other globally over the internet?

While this wasn't shown / covered in the documentary, it's a very interesting perspective.

Certainly fits the ideology of anything with value ending up in the hands of those with power...

Reply 10 of 19, by sliderider

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Jorpho wrote:
This does not make sense. […]
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sliderider wrote:

Not necessarily. Munitions might be readily available but the systems to launch them may not be.

This does not make sense.

Not every wannabe terrorist or dictator is rich enough to afford the newest and best. Some of them still scrape by as best they can.

Yes, that's why they use suicide bombers and IEDs, which from most perspectives are far less problematic and require far less technical expertise than some kind of hacked-together guidance system.

But perhaps we should continue this in PMs rather than continuing to derail this thread.

It makes perfect sense. What's cheaper to buy, a bullet or the gun it goes in? Rockets might cost a few thousand each, but the launchers they go in might be hundreds of thousands. I'm not talking about RPG's or shoulder fired rockets, I'm talking about the bigger systems where you can launch 30 of them at once from the back of a truck or top of a tank. If it's an older system, it may not even have the accuracy you want but without access to military grade targeting or guidance systems, you'd have to improvise with whatever was available. That's why the government restricts the export of computers and even video game consoles, because they can be weaponized.

Here's a perfect example of what I mean

palestinian-dump-truck-rocket-launcher.jpg

This truck was captured by Israel and was manned by Palestinian terrorists. It was designed to fire it's rockets then drive away inconspicuously. They either couldn't afford the real rocket launcher or knew it would be captured right away so they improvised this so they could hide it in plain sight.

Reply 11 of 19, by Jorpho

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You want to keep doing this here?

sliderider wrote:

It makes perfect sense. What's cheaper to buy, a bullet or the gun it goes in?

It doesn't matter how much cheaper the bullets may be; there is little point in going into business trying to sell bullets to people who have no guns unless one can sell guns as well.

That's why the government restricts the export of computers and even video game consoles, because they can be weaponized.

You keep coming up with these intriguing ideas with nothing to back them up. If nothing else, a considerable amount of computers and video game consoles don't even originate in the USA.

They either couldn't afford the real rocket launcher or knew it would be captured right away so they improvised this so they could hide it in plain sight.

In this case the latter seems much more likely.

Reply 12 of 19, by Dominus

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I was wondering when he would go at it again. Must be nice to have a head full of these strange theories...

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Reply 14 of 19, by AlienBZ

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Thank you for your input so far. You guys enlightened me as to crime overseas. As I was reading this thread, I felt wheels turning in my head, and another idea I started thinking of was - why not keep these old computers out of the hands of the overseas terrorists by keeping these computers here in the US? I found what I think might a possible idea from these sites:

Resources for Older Computers

10 Ways to Recycle Old Computers

Pittsburgh Area FreeCycle

Old Mac's

I don't believe in just throwing away old computers (regardless of how old it is) if it still works and hopefully someone can use it. I don't like the idea of putting old computers in landfills or putting them at the curb with a sign "Free Computer" - this way they can get rained on, dirt/gravel in them from passing cars, etc, and get ruined that way. I think some people like the "Good Old Days" feeling of receiving an old computer/old games just so they can enjoy "Old Times" again.

Reply 15 of 19, by Jorpho

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AlienBZ wrote:

I think some people like the "Good Old Days" feeling of receiving an old computer/old games just so they can enjoy "Old Times" again.

The number of old computers vastly, vastly, vastly outnumbers the number of people who like this "Good Old Days" feeling of which you speak – especially considering that so many old computer games can not only be made to run in a satisfactory fashion on a newer computer, but are available from Steam and GOG and the like. Yes, there seems to be a high population of people on these forums that feel an older machine can somehow deliver a more authentic experience, but this is not reflected in the population as a whole.

I say again: you will inevitably end up surrounded by gigantic piles of old computer junk that no one wants and that you will have difficulty disposing of. Nothing lasts forever! Some things just have to get thrown away!

Reply 17 of 19, by AlienBZ

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Jorpho wrote:

I say again: you will inevitably end up surrounded by gigantic piles of old computer junk that no one wants and that you will have difficulty disposing of. Nothing lasts forever! Some things just have to get thrown away!

Ok, Jorpho. Btw totally, and perhaps for my entire schooling, I'll likely have only PC # 2 running MS-DOS/Win 3.11, a Compaq Presario 5012US running Win 98SE, and an imac G3. The other computers I have are newer (XP/Vista)

Reply 18 of 19, by nforce4max

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sliderider wrote:
Jorpho wrote:
sliderider wrote:

If they are stealing food and medicine donations intended for the poor, don't you think they'd steal computers, too? How many of those laptops intended for poor children ended up in the hands of terrorists, I wonder, who used them to co-ordinate with each other globally over the internet?

I am intrigued by the idea, but it would be much more interesting if you had a reliable source confirming the existence of such practices.

Certainly, it's a heck of a lot easier to bargain with food and medicine than it is with computers, considering that people won't die without computers.

A computer is a high value item that is easily transportable, and as I mentioned, terrorists can use them to communicate with each other globally or to hack government computers. So they have as much value to them as food or medicine. The parts can also be repurposed for things like missile guidance systems. A good sized village with several hundred children that receive these laptops would be an attractive target.

As for hacking government computers it is usually the other way around with the government hacking into and spying on the people. Two years ago people found out that US military was operating a lab out in Louisiana that scanned through youtube that posted automated responses to certain types of videos that were made to look like it was people trolling but was aimed at political and religious critics of the Obama administration. Last but not least they also hired teams of bloggers to attack blogs and deface web sites which was reported on TV news but since swept under the rug. As for terrorist organizations like al qaeda that was created in the 1970s by non else than the CIA are meant and design to cause fear in the hearts of the people for the ends of the elite. Will never forget how the CIA was running heroin and cocaine in the 1970s and 1980s into the us.