You might still be lucky and get a PowerVR PCX 1/2 for 10 dollars, but normally the prices have risen.

The Kyro cards do not support PowerSGL. The only cards to do so are the PCX 1, 2 and the Neon 250. The Neon card is the "ultimate" PowerVR with PowerSGL support (given that it is compatible with most games).

I just updated my The Ultimate 3D Accelerated Supported Games List with a preliminary list of PowerSGL supported games. These are the ones I've found during my research and are the games with official support. Leileilol have a post with games that can be "hacked" to support PowerSGL miniGL.

The games that really are better than 3DFX is Mechwarrior 2 and Tomb Raider. You can check out my comparison video on Mechwarrior 2, but for Tomb Raider you just have to take my word for it (though the ATI Rage version is very close actually!). Another game that is very nice is the PowerVR port of Virtual On, which makes the game almost look like the arcade version. The OEM versions of Ultimate Race runs better than the retail Pro version on a PowerVR card. For Resident Evil, running in PowerVR only gives you the option to run in 800x600, and is more frame rate locked than the Direct3D version, but beside that it doesn't have much more going for it.

Leileilol is obsessed with the PCX2 😜. I had no idea the Neon 250 had SGL support, is it fully compatible? I don't think anyone here has a Neon 250, which sucks because it is so rare to get. We may never know how much better than a PCX2 it really is.

On a different note, is the ATi Rage version of Tomb Raider that good? Does it work on Rage Pro cards? I've got a Rage Pro Turbo I've been meaning to try out with a few games just for fun 😜.

I don't know how good the SGL support is in the Neon 250, or if it gives any performance increase in SGL games. Hopefully NitroX here on Vogons can test it for us when he is done with testing the Tasmania (which I think is the plan now).

One thing that speaks against compatibility is that in the readme for Metal Fatigue it says: "SGL is only for use with older PowerVR cards. If you have a Videologic Neon250 use D3D".

Yes, the Tomb Raider works very well on the Rage Pro cards. There are some graphical glitches (due to drivers), but the advantages are as follows:

1. It is a Windows port, meaning you can use gamepads with USB and way more buttons natively! (without using key to button conversions and running in a WinDOSBox which creates input lag)
2. On the ATI Rage Pro you can run in 800x600 in 30 FPS which is stable in all situations. PowerVR can fluctuate in large areas or if much is going on at the same time.
3. Sharp picture, better than on 3DFX and Rendition.

Here's a tip: Don't use a nVidia card with the PCX2. Their drivers will cause kernel crashes when trying to use the PCX's D3D HAL.

If you're curious, here's the output of the PCX2, and here's the output of the KYRO II. Both have the same excellent 16-bit dithering, which is one feature the Kyro II was more hyped for 😀 sadly PCX2 cards were marketed mostly just for having fog and filtering, and some crap about revolutions

Definitely going to try the Rage version of TR then! 😁

vetz wrote:

The Kyro cards do not support PowerSGL. The only cards to do so are the PCX 1, 2 and the Neon 250. The Neon card is the "ultimate" PowerVR with PowerSGL support (given that it is compatible with most games).

Do they Kyro cards support anything unique or are they just poor DX8 cards? I mean the Kyro WAS a PowerVR3 type card afterall which I had assumed would have been compatible with older stuff. (or maybe it was compatible in hardware but nobody wrote drivers because in 2001 nobody gave a crap about games probably 6 years old)

Are there any games besides Metal Fatigue that prefer/require a PCX2 card instead of a Neon 250? (a neon 250 in direct X mode is pointless since any newer generic direct X card will give higher quality) Are there any PCX1 only games? Are there any Neon 250 only games?

I haven't encountered a PCX1 only game that wouldn't run on PCX2, personally. Other than attempting to run TOMBPCX1.EXE that is 😀

hifidelitygaming wrote:

Do they Kyro cards support anything unique or are they just poor DX8 cards? I mean the Kyro WAS a PowerVR3 type card afterall which I had assumed would have been compatible with older stuff. (or maybe it was compatible in hardware but nobody wrote drivers because in 2001 nobody gave a crap about games probably 6 years old)

Are there any games besides Metal Fatigue that prefer/require a PCX2 card instead of a Neon 250? (a neon 250 in direct X mode is pointless since any newer generic direct X card will give higher quality) Are there any PCX1 only games? Are there any Neon 250 only games?

No to all of your questions.

Again, the Neon 250 SGL compatibility is unknown at the current moment. We must pray that a card either ends up in a willing testers hands or that NitroXInfinity get more time to test his card 😉

hifidelitygaming wrote:

Are there any games besides Metal Fatigue that prefer/require a PCX2 card instead of a Neon 250? (a neon 250 in direct X mode is pointless since any newer generic direct X card will give higher quality) Are there any PCX1 only games? Are there any Neon 250 only games?

Yeah, at last I got a Neon 250 card (a PCI one) some weeks ago so I can make PowerSGL compatibility tests. For this card special thanks to Octavian from Romania who has donated me this rare card. The card has arrived some weeks ago and I have tested some games that supports PowerVR SGL API. Special thanks to vetz for the help and support in this testing.
So now I can say:
VideoLogic Neon 250 card (PowerVR 250 chip) supports the PowerSGL API but the compatibility is not strong.

UPDATE: this is with bios "Rev 2.01i"! It seems older bios versions are more compatible, I will test these games again with older bioses.

Not run at all:
Mechwarrior 2;
Ultim@te Race;
4x4 (demo version);
Nightmare Creatures;
MDK;
Cybertroopers;
Tomb Raider (PCX1 version seeks PCX1 chip and PCX2 version seeks PCX2 chip, so both of them are not work on Neon 250 and PowerVR Midas3 too).

Starts with bugs:
Metal Fatigu (First it seems it is OK, but after a bit playing some texture going to white, not playable);
Ultimate Race Pro (smoke/fogging is missing so far textures are too white and sky is too blue but playable).

OK:
Unreal (needs to change the resolutions to 640x480 from the default 512x384 and to set your Windows resolution higher than 640x480);
The 5th Element.

UPDATE2: this is with bios "Rev 01.116":

Not run at all:
Mechwarrior 2;
Cybertroopers;
Tomb Raider (PCX1 version seeks PCX1 chip and PCX2 version seeks PCX2 chip, so both of them are not work on Neon 250 and PowerVR Midas3 too).

Starts with bugs:
Ultim@te Race;
MDK;
Metal Fatigu (First it seems it is OK, but after a bit playing some texture going to white, not playable);
Ultimate Race Pro (smoke/fogging is missing so far textures are too white and sky is too blue but playable).

OK:
4x4 (demo version);
Nightmare Creatures;
Unreal (512x384 is also works);
The 5th Element.

There are no Neon 250 only games.

Wow, what a waste considering they bothered to claim PowerSGL compatibility for it 😀 they probably could have made it compatible with first gen games by writing proper drivers (like what 3dfx did). But since it bombed hard it's understandable that they didn't feel like spending any effort on improving a failed product in such a fast-paced market environment. Is it at least fully compatible with Direct3D 6 games?

I think with the PowerSGL parts of the driver they have focused only to Unreal.
In Direct3D I have only tried MDK and it not starts (it is Direct3D 3) and 3DMark99 (Direct3D 6) that is works without problem.

This is kinda unfortunate. We've been waiting for years for someone to release some data detailing this card's compatibility. So, it appears that there is no need nor will there ever be one to get a Neon 250 to achieve higher framerates in SGL games!

Thanks for the info Gona!

Gona wrote:

So now I can say:
VideoLogic Neon 250 card (PowerVR 250 chip) supports the PowerSGL API but the compatibility is really weak.

Maybe I'll talk on Beyond3D.com, see if every possible driver was released. 😉

What is your drivers versions?

F2bnp wrote:

This is kinda unfortunate. We've been waiting for years for someone to release some data detailing this card's compatibility. So, it appears that there is no need nor will there ever be one to get a Neon 250 to achieve higher framerates in SGL games!

Thanks for the info Gona!

I think the results are part of the reason why people have kept their mouth shut for so many years. Prices are going to drop as a result of this information. Gona is doing a good service providing these results here.

I agree that the lacking support probably is down to poor drivers for SGL. When they announced the Neon250 (or PowerVR 2 as it was called in the start) they didn't expect it to take over two years. PowerSGL grew less and less important over that timespan, so when it was released DirectX 6 performance and compatibility probably was much more important.

Stiletto wrote:

What is your drivers versions?

I have found three Win9x driver version:

1v3.1.1.36	 (3.01.01.0036)	pmx.drv: 4.11.01.10035-1.00.00.0131
2v3.1.1.101	(3.01.01.0101)	pmx.drv: 4.11.01.10055-1.00.00.0142
3v3.2.1.2	  (3.02.01.0002)	pmx.drv: 4.11.01.10079-1.00.00.0166

(v3.2.1.2a and v3.2.1.2c have minimal differences to v3.2.1.2. The "a" is for cards with later bios version, the "c" is for WinME compatibility).
No real differences in compatibility, bugs are the same with Metal Fatigu and Ultimate Race Pro.
In some games those are not run got different error messages or no error message but not run.

vetz wrote:

I think the results are part of the reason why people have kept their mouth shut for so many years. Prices are going to drop as a result of this information. Gona is doing a good service providing these results here.

I agree that the lacking support probably is down to poor drivers for SGL. When they announced the Neon250 (or PowerVR 2 as it was called in the start) they didn't expect it to take over two years. PowerSGL grew less and less important over that timespan, so when it was released DirectX 6 performance and compatibility probably was much more important.

Good point. Everyone looking out for themselves I guess. I would have never thought of doing this in a similar position.
Gona, you have indeed helped debunk a great myth/legend. PowerVR Busters ! 🤣

F2bnp wrote:

Gona, you have indeed helped debunk a great myth/legend. PowerVR Busters ! 🤣

Thanks! 😀

How's the Q3 performance on the Neon250? What about with different r_primitives settings 1-3? r_stencilbits 24/32 + cg_shadows 2 supported? GL extension list?

I will try it.