VOGONS


First post, by triostatis

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Hello VOGONS community!

This is my first topic after registration. 😀 So, I have built my first computer for retrogaming (thanks to you!):
- Pentium III 1.0 GHz (previously Pentium II-350)
- Jamicon 650B-ATX (got it from school, typical Taiwanese cheapo from 1998 but have 3 ISA and BX chipset! It handles 133 FSB with no problem!)
- 2x256 MB PC133R ECC (also from school)
- MSI GeForce FX5900XT 128 MB AGP (overkill, but games like it for compatibility)
- Sound Blaster AWE64 Gold (Mau1wurf1977 recomendation!)
- Sound Blaster Live! 5.1 Digital SB0220 (plan to replace with Audigy 2 ZS)
- Fortron FSP350-60MDN (good PSU with strong +5V and +3.3V, it have also -5V for older ISA cards!)
- No-name ATX case (finding a good PC case is pain in ass in my country 😵 )

Okay, this topic was not supposed to show l33tness of my computer. The AGP Aperture Size option in BIOS may cause slowdown/speedup* of graphical performance. Some guy from my country discovered this and he made test with various setting of aperture size:
http://twojepc.pl/artykuly1.php?id=aperature_size_vs_geforce - the text is in Polish, but images have English captions.

The conclusion is - AGP Aperture Size must be = memory of your graphics card. Because when I do that, 3D Mark 01 result jumped from 4563 to 7102 points! If you had it set correctly, then you are done! 😎 I hope that my investigation isn't like inventing the wheel again. 🤣

I will try with Mau1wurf1977 VGA benchmark to see any changes in score!
*applies to Slot 1/Socket 370 motherboards with VIA and Intel chipsets.

Reply 1 of 11, by Tetrium

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Welcome to Vogons! 😁

I'll try to keep this in mind. Frankly, I never gave AGP aperture size a good though, can't remember what I set it to 🤣

Whats missing in your collections?
My retro rigs (old topic)
Interesting Vogons threads (links to Vogonswiki)
Report spammers here!

Reply 3 of 11, by Jarvik7

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In general, the bigger the aperture, the higher your performance should be, as long as you have enough system ram.
AGP aperture is just the amount of system ram that is dedicated to use by the videocard as a texture/vertex/etc buffer.
So, if you want ideal performance, it will be on a per-game basis, depending on how much memory is needed for the OS+that game.
Of course, if the game doesn't need that much memory for textures etc, it won't make a difference.

Reply 5 of 11, by Jarvik7

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Yes, because it would reduce the free ram available for the game to use.
You need to strike a balance with how much system memory your OS+game needs and how graphically intensive the game is.

If all of the game resources fit in your video card's memory, setting the aperture super low wouldn't make a difference.
If you have an overkill amount of system ram, setting the aperture super high wouldn't make a difference.

Reply 6 of 11, by Putas

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Jarvik7 wrote:

Yes, because it would reduce the free ram available for the game to use.

No, OSes are smarter then that, aperture is just upper limit managed on the fly. Testing old accelerators I noticed some give up on AGP features when big aperture is used. Don't think that would happen with mature chips like FX, but looking at pics in the article I bet some configuration changed when aperture is above 16MB. Anyway don't draw conclusions so quickly.

Reply 7 of 11, by nforce4max

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I never really bothered and don't remember running across any decent articles reviewing how the different sizes affected performance.

On a far away planet reading your posts in the year 10,191.

Reply 9 of 11, by obobskivich

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My understanding is that AGP aperture size has more of an influence on GPU performance when the graphics card has a relatively small amount of memory (16-32MB), and as VRAM increases, AGP aperture does not need to increase. For cards that only offer ~32MB of VRAM, in my experience it should be set 1:1 or 2:1 (if you have enough memory to back that), but anything else is kind of pointless. For cards with significantly more memory (128MB or more) it probably isn't as much of a concern. The Polish test seems to confirm this, with the GeForce 2 cards in the test (which probably have 16-32MB of memory) not showing much benefit beyond a 32MB aperture. Also remember that when comparing 3DMark scores, Futuremark did come out a few years ago and say that variances of less than something like 5-10% shouldn't be bothered with, because the margin of error is a few % between each run.

Here's another test showing a more modern set of graphics cards; the GeForce 4 Ti:
http://www.3dvelocity.com/reviews/medusa4680/4680pt_5.htm

Notice that changing AGP aperture size seems to have no effect on the measured performance (the author comes to the same conclusion). These cards have 128MB of memory.

Here's another test with older hardware that has significantly less onboard memory:
http://www.tweak3d.net/articles/aperture-size/ (TNT2 and GeForce 3)

Again, "big" sizes tend not to do much for either card once they've met the card's onboard memory, but they did note some instability by setting the AGP Aperture to extreme values on the GeForce 3.

I'd also add that Microsoft has vaguely made noise about system memory needing to be greater than (I would guess at least double in a perfect world) video memory; msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/window ... cal_memory (unfortunately I've yet to see an article that compares this)

Here's another article I found from Tech ARP about it, that may be helpful to some:
http://www.techarp.com/showFreeBOG.aspx?lang=0&bogno=32 The "big point" here is that as VRAM increases, AGP aperture does not - it's inversely related. If the card has more memory onboard it doesn't rely as much on system memory.

As far as the specific issue at hand here, with the FX 5900 doing loads better in 3DMark, tough to make a 100% explanation, but it should be safe to assume that a 64-128M aperture is correct for most graphics cards based on the above. I'm curious what the default value was on the system though. Was it very low (like 4-16M?)? Alternately, it may be that whatever the original value was produced some sort of compatibility/performance issue, like what Tweak3D experienced with the GeForce 3 in their test (IOW don't set it to 4-16MB on modern systems). And finally, some other setting(s) may have been accidentally/unknowingly changed or configured when AAS was adjusted that led to the system working right. It isn't universally necessary, in my understanding, to set AGP aperture 1:1 with all graphics cards however (and data seems to support this) - cards with more VRAM don't rely on it as heavily (if at all). Of course what you're tasking the card with doing also matters - does it actually need more memory than it has onboard or not?

Some results I'd be curious about with this GeForce FX system:

- If AAS is set to 256MB, does it do anything statistically significant?
- Same as above, but at 64MB.
- What was the original AAS?
- Can you test in another benchmark (like AquaMark 3) or a game (like Quake or Unreal)?

Reply 10 of 11, by Jarvik7

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http://www.evga.com/support/faq/afmviewfaq.aspx?faqid=59067
Good answer.

Looks like what I said (about taking away system ram) is only true for demanding games that will actually use the large amount of aperture memory.
At that point you'd have to determine if system or video memory was the first bottleneck hit.

Last edited by Jarvik7 on 2014-02-17, 04:13. Edited 1 time in total.

Reply 11 of 11, by obobskivich

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Jarvik7 wrote:
http://www.evga.com/support/faq/afmviewfaq.aspx?faqid=59067 Good answer. […]
Show full quote

http://www.evga.com/support/faq/afmviewfaq.aspx?faqid=59067
Good answer.

Looks like what I said (about taking away system ram) is only true for demanding games that will actually use the large amount of aperture memory.
At that point you'd have to determine if cpu or video memory was the first bottleneck hit.

If the game is demanding enough that it will over-run what the graphics card can provide memory-wise, the graphics card is likely ill-suited for the game. This doesn't mean the AGP aperture is "wrong" but it does mean if you have say, a 32MB graphics card, and the game needs 64-128MB, it's very likely there's other deficiencies on that card than just installed memory, and performance probably can't be expected to be very good.

Also remember that at least for DirectX 9 (I have not confirmed if 7 and 8 also exhibit this behavior), VRAM resources must be "backed" (MSDN's wording) or duplicated in system memory. See here from MSDN:
msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/window ... cal_memory
And here from TPU:
http://www.techpowerup.com/forums/threads/32- … eo-cards.91260/
And here from Tom's (linked on TPU too):
http://www.tomshardware.com/news/windows-grap … emory,7644.html

I'd also swear that EVGA FAQ item is shamelessly ripped off from somwhere; I want to say Rojak Pot (which is no longer online).

For example here's the exact text quoted from Rojak Pot in 2001:
http://forums.speedguide.net/showthread.php?3 … -Aperature-size
And another from 2002:
https://www.overclockers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=142055

Yet another reason to despise EVGA I guess...😒