carlostex wrote:

ISA: Cirrus Logic 5429 Tseng ET4000AX […]
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ISA:
Cirrus Logic 5429
Tseng ET4000AX

VLB:
Tseng ET4000/w32

PCI:
S3 Trio64V
Voodoo Banshee
Voodoo 3

AGP:
Voodoo 3

ET4000 has to be one of the most overrated cards from the DOS era. Its pretty decent (quick) for ISA
For VLB I would lean towards maybe a S3 Vision.
And for PCI there are lots of choices. No need to bother with ET4000 even though they were some made for PCI

If ET4000 is the quickest ISA, then its not overrated. I have tested ET6000 PCI just a few days ago on P-133 and is the fastest among S3, Matrox, 3dfx... only beaten by a TNT by a few 0.1FPS in Phill's benchmark suit.

ISA:
Tseng ET4000AX (only late revision)
Cirrus Logic 5422+

VLB:
Cirrus Logic 5424+
S3 probably too

PCI:
S3 Vision+ (as good as Trio64 but with much better external DAC up to 250 MHz)
Riva128 (fast but no 15 bpp (low res) vesa modes)
Voodoo Banshee (fast but no 15 bpp and 32 bpp (low res) vesa modes)

AGP:
S3 Trio3D (has incredibly good VESA support by BIOS)
Voodoo 3 (same issues as Banshee)

There are also good alternatives for an ISA ET4000, like Acumos AVGA2. It is mostly only mentioned because the people don't know or have no experiences with the other chipsets.

I would also consider a Matrox for a PCI solution. There are implementations with very good 2D performance and deliver excellent image quality, in some cases the difference is obvious. Also compatibility isn't bad at all. OK, they're not like the S3's compatibility-wise, but not on the other side either.

WD90C31 owns ET4000AX.

ISA: ET4000/W32
VLB: ET4000/W32p - With 2MB RAM due to the boost given by interleaved memory.
PCI: Matrox Mystique - Though I've never tested an ET6000 so it could make the list... S3 are probably better all-rounders due to being cheaper.
AGP: Matrox G100/Productivia. Failing that an ATI Magnum/Rage.

Well let me ask it this way. Of all the card makers that used S3 graphics chips, who had the best quality boards? I'm pretty sure it wouldn't have been STB. Any rankings? I seem to remember Number Nine being at the top, or near the top, of the list for quality, is that right?

Weren't Diamond a manufacture of actual boards? I always found them to have rather good quality and they usually used S3 chips. Number Nine are up there as far as I know, but I've never actually seen one IRL making me think they might not have made it to the UK in large numbers, thus I can't pass judgement.

STB sure made the best TSeng cards though... Except perhaps QuickWorks (Workstation hardware).

Matrox made their own boards.

RAMChYLD wrote:

The only issue with it is of course it doesn't support GLide which is needed for some 3D games in DOS (it's advertised as a 3D accelerator, but I assume it meant Direct3D/OpenGL which is useless in Dos/Win3.x).

"3d accelerator" != obligatory Glide support

Only 3dfx Voodoos and some special Creative TNT card have that capability.

ISA: Trident 8900D 1MB
PCI: Voodoo3 (2000/3000), Riva128
AGP: Voodoo (2000/3000), Riva128

Why?
ISA: Trident 8900D is the only card, that worked with my 286 and Win30+31 with it's highres drivers (256Color and more)
PCI/AGP both cards do a smooth scrolling in hardwaremode (jazz2/win95). Other cards I tested stutter.

Doc

HighTreason wrote:

VLB: ET4000/W32p - With 2MB RAM due to the boost given by interleaved memory.

Benchmarks in DOS gives this as a 1% performance increase. So it's a myth that you must have 2 MB in a W32p. See Artex's big 486 thread.

Gives a 17% boost in Doom timedemo for me. Your card must have some kind of contention or you used poor quality memory.

Though it varies across the board as PCP Bench sees a very minimal improvement for example and you really make the most of it at higher resolutions, some of which aren't possible with a lowly 1MB of memory. In my case, I set the machine up with Doom-type tasks in mind and judged it primarily on it's performance in such applications as well as the fact it could run cakewalk at a decent resolution.

Either way, it can't hurt to have more RAM.

Probably worth noting that the machine runs Chicago so when in Windows there aren't many cards that you can use anyway.

As a last note, I forgot about Virge as a candidate for the PCI category.

HighTreason wrote:

Gives a 17% boost in Doom timedemo for me. Your card must have some kind of contention or you used poor quality memory.

Both me and sunaiac had the same results. Please provide more information on how you can see 17%?

HighTreason wrote:

Either way, it can't hurt to have more RAM.

Agree on that, but then why not just go for the S3 Vision series on VLB? Better compatibility, faster & better in Windows applications and just as fast in DOS. I believe some cards were available up to 4MB.

I see around 17%, unless my math was flawed. I'll try and have it recorded next time the workstation is in any fit state to do such things given that I have a CPU upgrade to do in that box soon anyway. It is an unusual machine though, unusually stable and capable of very quick timings.

The Vision I have little experience with, the only one I have used is in a Packard Bell Pulsar 16 on the motherboard, it proved incredibly slow as rest of the motherboard so probably not it's fault. It was around £70 on eBay at the time where the ET4000 was £20, given the shipping and such (Try finding VLB cards in the UK!) as well as the fact the OS was already rigged up to an ET4000 card (For ISA) not to mention my prior experience with them... I also like the demoscene and the ET4000 was the best documented card at that time, meaning many demos were written with that card in mind.

If the Vision is anything like the Trio in a decent system, it should be a good alternative... Though I do not know if Chicago supports it as I've never tested.

HighTreason wrote:

Weren't Diamond a manufacture of actual boards? I always found them to have rather good quality and they usually used S3 chips.

I've had problems with multiple (I think I had 3 or 4) Diamond S3 Trio64 and Virge PCI cards when connected to an LCD monitor. The monitor would keep blinking, like it couldn't sync the signal properly. I've interpreted this to mean that Diamond was doing something off-spec, which went unnoticed on CRTs but LCDs hate them. At least mine does.

shamino wrote:

HighTreason wrote:

Weren't Diamond a manufacture of actual boards? I always found them to have rather good quality and they usually used S3 chips.

I've had problems with multiple (I think I had 3 or 4) Diamond S3 Trio64 and Virge PCI cards when connected to an LCD monitor. The monitor would keep blinking, like it couldn't sync the signal properly. I've interpreted this to mean that Diamond was doing something off-spec, which went unnoticed on CRTs but LCDs hate them. At least mine does.

I use a Diamond 2000 S3 ViRGE with a DELL 1901FP LCD monitor and have no problems. Works fine at 1024x768.

Strangely 1280x1024 works in some OSes and gives a out of range message on others. When it does work (@1280x1024) it is fairly blurry but that is a limitation of the S3 DAC
It works in 95 and 2000 with the stock drivers but not 98

I don't set much store by LCDs as I find them too slow and dislike the image they produce... Oddly, Diamond's Stealth 64 and Stealth 32 are two of the only cards I have (Despite having several Trio 32/64) that work with my DVI scaling box at practically any resolution.

Perhaps when the blurry picture occurs the card is using an interlaced signal? My Trio 64 does that at high resolutions, or it did until I installed the extra memory, I haven't cranked it back to that resolution again since though so I can't be sure of exactly what's happening... Indeed, though, the DAC is undoubtedly a limiting factor.

vetz wrote:

HighTreason wrote:

VLB: ET4000/W32p - With 2MB RAM due to the boost given by interleaved memory.

Benchmarks in DOS gives this as a 1% performance increase. So it's a myth that you must have 2 MB in a W32p. See Artex's big 486 thread.

Yesterday I received memory chips and upgraded my Tseng ET4000/w32i VLB to 2MB. I did the usual tests in DOS and Windows 95. Using my slowest VLB system with 486DLC-40 the difference in DOS is not even noticeable. But in Windows its like +50% performance gain. Interleaving definitely works where high bandwidth is needed.

I might try it later in a faster 486DX4-160.

For overall great compatibility, I'm yet to find a game that doesn't work right using an AGP Diamond Stealth III S540 Savage 4 Xtreme card. Bonus is that not only has it got great Dos compatibility but it has enough grunt under the hood for most later 3D games as well. Best of both worlds! Never used a PCI Savage 4 Pro before but I'm guessing the same great compatibility applies to that as well.

kixs wrote:

vetz wrote:

HighTreason wrote:

VLB: ET4000/W32p - With 2MB RAM due to the boost given by interleaved memory.

Benchmarks in DOS gives this as a 1% performance increase. So it's a myth that you must have 2 MB in a W32p. See Artex's big 486 thread.

Yesterday I received memory chips and upgraded my Tseng ET4000/w32i VLB to 2MB. I did the usual tests in DOS and Windows 95. Using my slowest VLB system with 486DLC-40 the difference in DOS is not even noticeable. But in Windows its like +50% performance gain. Interleaving definitely works where high bandwidth is needed.

Is that because of interleaving or is windows double buffering/storing off screen things?
Windows loves video RAM so that is why I wouldn't even bother with 1 MB cards in Windows
-edit-
Let me expand on that. If you only have a ISA system then your only choice would probably be 1 MB or less.
But if you have a windows supported accelerated card you really really want more than 1 MB