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Reply 20 of 84, by PhilsComputerLab

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ThunderPeel2001 wrote:

You may well be right! Need to find a CM sound effect to test! Anyone know of any in Fate of Atlantis or DOTT?

Elite plus is a good test. No laser sounds or launching sound on a MT-32. Gods will have odd sound effects on a MT-32 when you climb ladders for example. Ultima Underworld has water sound in streams on the CM. Beneath a Steal Sky, different sound when you break open the door right at the beginning of the game. I've got examples of these in some of my videos.

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Reply 21 of 84, by collector

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Someone on the ScummVM forums asked about this. I had responded that at least Munt should handle it based on which ROMs were used, but was dismissed that I didn't know what I was talking about.

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Reply 22 of 84, by ThunderPeel2001

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philscomputerlab wrote:
ThunderPeel2001 wrote:

You may well be right! Need to find a CM sound effect to test! Anyone know of any in Fate of Atlantis or DOTT?

Elite plus is a good test. No laser sounds or launching sound on a MT-32. Gods will have odd sound effects on a MT-32 when you climb ladders for example. Ultima Underworld has water sound in streams on the CM. Beneath a Steal Sky, different sound when you break open the door right at the beginning of the game. I've got examples of these in some of my videos.

I'm thinking specifically of LucasArts/adventure titles with ScummVM.

The sound effects for BASS are identical whether the Roland ROMs are present or not.

Reply 23 of 84, by ThunderPeel2001

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collector wrote:

Someone on the ScummVM forums asked about this. I had responded that at least Munt should handle it based on which ROMs were used, but was dismissed that I didn't know what I was talking about.

Yes, I just saw that. You were right, but it appears even with the CM-32L ROMs that the sound effects are not present in ScummVM. It would be great if someone could exactly pinpoint a specific sound effect that we know SHOULD sound different if you're using a MT-32 ROM or a CM-32L ROM. At the moment I cannot find anything -- the sound effects appear to be exactly the same on both.

Reply 24 of 84, by Dominus

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Well, then try with the munt driver and set scummvm to use that.
For example with Dosbox you can hear the difference between mt32 and cm32 roms in Ultima Underwold (I think 😉)

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Reply 25 of 84, by ThunderPeel2001

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Looks like the birds tweeting is a prime example. When I used DosBox with MUNT and CM-32L ROMs with DOTT, you get the bird tweeting at the beginning. Woo! Exactly as the creators intended!

Reply 26 of 84, by thecrankyhermit

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I hear the birds tweet on my real MT-32 rev. 0. So I don't think DOTT actually uses the CM-32L. The Youtube video is probably configured wrong.

What bugs me is that Wikipedia and several forums all point to DOTT as an example of the CM-32L, but the only evidence given is the birds chirping. Which I'm pretty sure isn't the CM-32L sound effect.

Here's a better test. Play Leisure Suit Larry 5. In the first area, go to the AV workshop, use the 8-track player, and select "Salsa This." With MUNT and the CM-32L ROMs, I hear laughter about 15-20 seconds in. With MUNT and the MT-32 ROMs, I get corrupt noise. With my real MT-32, I just get the song, no laughter or corrupt noise.

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Reply 28 of 84, by Staticblast

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thecrankyhermit wrote:

With MUNT and the MT-32 ROMs, I get corrupt noise. With my real MT-32, I just get the song, no laughter or corrupt noise.

Is this with both MT-32 Old and MT-32 New ROMs? Seems like an interesting difference. I might try this myself.

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Reply 29 of 84, by thecrankyhermit

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Just MT-32 old, I think. Control is marked 1.07, PCM isn't marked anything in particular. I don't have MT-32 new ROMs - I figure the old MT-32 and CM-32L cover all my bases.

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Reply 33 of 84, by DOSUserDude

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thecrankyhermit wrote:

I hear the birds tweet on my real MT-32 rev. 0. So I don't think DOTT actually uses the CM-32L. The Youtube video is probably configured wrong.

What bugs me is that Wikipedia and several forums all point to DOTT as an example of the CM-32L, but the only evidence given is the birds chirping. Which I'm pretty sure isn't the CM-32L sound effect.

Here's a better test. Play Leisure Suit Larry 5. In the first area, go to the AV workshop, use the 8-track player, and select "Salsa This." With MUNT and the CM-32L ROMs, I hear laughter about 15-20 seconds in. With MUNT and the MT-32 ROMs, I get corrupt noise. With my real MT-32, I just get the song, no laughter or corrupt noise.

As it happens, DOTT does in fact support playback of the "extra" specialized soundFX samples for the CM32L/LAPC-I/CM64, etc.

However, you cannot experience these fully UNLESS and UNTIL you either use the floppy version, or disable digitized (Sound Blaster) audio for the CD version. Choosing SoundBlaster overrides certain soundFX that would otherwise be played by the MIDI device, in this case the CM32l/LAPC-I sounds, but only for those soundFX for which there is a digitized sound - not all soundFX (this is logic employed by many games for which there are both digitized soundFX and MIDI soundFX - the digitized sound overrides the MIDI sound - The assumption was that the digitized sounds were preferred and superior, i mean, why else did you get the SoundBlaster, etc etc)

The first video uses SCUMMVM, which until very recently, had broken/limited MUNT/MT32 support with no support for the extra CM32L/LAPC-I soundFX. As of last fall, after being told many years ago about their broken/limited MUNT/MT32/CM32L support/implementation, they started finally addressing it in part, adding specific detection for the CM32L ROMs and realized they had no specific game engine support ("duhhhhhh"). They'll need to address ROM detection/MUNT alignment/game engine support before it all works properly.

The second video has the digital sound disabled, which, is absolutely necessary in order to hear ALL the CM32L/LAPC-I soundFX.

The "birds chirping" sound is available to all Roland devices, and is not the soundFX you want to pay attention to - its a red herring, errr, of a sort. I'ts immediately following the chirping that matters - there is a series of soundFX (sputtering etc etc) that are of course only available on LAPC-I/CM32L/etc.

In fact, the "birds chirping" is available to GM devices too, assuming a standard mapping. Configure DOTT to use GM, configure DOSBox to use your preferred MIDI device (I have an X-Fi and use the generic 8MBGMGs on B and Chorium Rev A on A, but have also tested the Microsoft DirectX DLS as well) and voila - Birds chirping.

You can test this using DOSBox+MUNT (configured with MT32 not CM32L) and the game set to "No digitized audio", and listen just after the "Bird chirping" ends with the bird "sputtering" in mid-air - there is no "sputtering" and "spring" or "zonk" (choose your words/names) soundFX playback.

If you have the MUNT console enabled and displayed, you'll see the following:

MT32: "Rhythm: Attempted to play unmapped key 78 (velocity 127)"
MT32: "Rhythm: Attempted to play unmapped key 88 (velocity 127)"
MT32: "Rhythm: Attempted to play unmapped key 78 (velocity 127)"
MT32: "Rhythm: Attempted to play unmapped key 88 (velocity 127)"
MT32: "Rhythm: Attempted to play unmapped key 78 (velocity 127)"
MT32: "Rhythm: Attempted to play unmapped key 88 (velocity 127)"
MT32: "Rhythm: Attempted to play unmapped key 85 (velocity 77)"

That's the game sending the MIDI data to play the "extra" CM32L/LAPC-I/etc sounds that the MT32 lacks.

Reconfigure MUNT to use the CM32L ROMs and reload DOSBox (with the digitized playback still disabled in the game), and voila, you'll hear them.

In a nutshell, "birds chirping" is available to all MIDI devices (Roland or GM) and SCUMMVM is broken/limited in terms of audio support, especially up-to-date MUNT/CM32L/accurate MT32 etc., regardless of recent efforts to rectify this long-standing limitation/brokeness, and I heavily discourage it for playing any games if you want an accurate/complete experience.

Reply 34 of 84, by thecrankyhermit

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Thanks for that info.

If I understood all that, then Sound Blaster + MT-32 is how DOTT is meant to be played, and the CM-32L effect support is just there as a fallback for those who didn't have a Sound Blaster, or alternatively for those who want to make their CM-32L's play the fallback sounds anyway so they can feel special. I'd put it in a separate category from Might and Magic III, Ultima Underworld, and even LSL5, which really do need a CM-32L for the complete experience.

I think the situation is similar with Beneath a Steel Sky's floppy version. Referencing a video by PhilsComputerLab, the crusher at the very first interactive room makes a constant "CLANG" sound. In DOSBox, you get a different sound depending on whether the game is configured to use Sound Blaster or Roland LA, and the Roland mode has different sound effects for MT-32 and CM-32L, giving three CLANG effects in total. But in ScummVM, the sound driver selection only affects the music, and sound effects are always the Sound Blaster version.

Regarding DOTT and Sound Blaster + MT-32, wouldn't modern ScummVM be fine? The only limitation I'm seeing here is that there's no way to turn off Sound Blaster support (that I know of), which I think is only an issue if you really want to use your CM-32L as a Sound Blaster substitute.

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Reply 35 of 84, by DOSUserDude

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If I understood all that, then Sound Blaster + MT-32 is how DOTT is meant to be played, and the CM-32L effect support is just there as a fallback for those who didn't have a Sound Blaster, or alternatively for those who want to make their CM-32L's play the fallback sounds anyway so they can feel special. I'd put it in a separate category from Might and Magic III, Ultima Underworld, and even LSL5, which really do need a CM-32L for the complete experience.

Depends on what "you" consider an "authentic" or "optimized" or "meant to be played" experience.

If you have the floppy version, but without the Roland (and GM) upgrade, is it "meant to be played" with SB/Adlib music? or also with SB FX?
If you have the floppy version, but with the Roland upgrade, is it "meant to be played" with Roland music? MT-32? or LAPC-I/CM32L? GM? With or without SB FX? MT32 with SB FX? CM32l/LAPC-I without SB FX?

And then theres the CD-ROM version with all the voice. Same questions apply.

If it was composed on a Roland SC 55 (3 different composers mind you), it would seem that GM would be preferred, especially for the floppy version or without a SB. But if configured for Roland with a CM32L/LAPC-I..you get those extra FX that you dont get with GM or MT-32.

Did i mention the "it doesnt sound right because that isnt how I remember it" bias preference? For many, that factors heavily - others, not so much. Some people are ok with using any of the hardware that was available at the time, even if it wasn't anything they owned or could afford at that time for a "meant to be played" experience, and so on. Some think any modern hardware/software that works with the game is "meant to be played"...

Corrected drivers that allow combinations of audio devices that werent allowed or were limited then? is that "meant to be played"?

You get the picture..."meant to be played" is very subjective in the ear of the beholder in the final analysis...

Whether or not anyone "feels special" or not..well...gaming is some part an emotional experience...experiencing a game multiple ways or having an "optimal audio experience" may be what some are going for.

I wouldn't put it in a separate category at all. The game makes use of and outputs extra soundFX on a LAPC-I/CM32L (especially meaningful on the floppy version which has little to no SB FX). That can't be denied. Whether or not "you" experience it depends on your game version/configuration/hardware/updates, or, if you care, as always.

I think the situation is similar with Beneath a Steel Sky's floppy version. Referencing a video by PhilsComputerLab, the crusher at the very first interactive room makes a constant "CLANG" sound. In DOSBox, you get a different sound depending on whether the game is configured to use Sound Blaster or Roland LA, and the Roland mode has different sound effects for MT-32 and CM-32L, giving three CLANG effects in total. But in ScummVM, the sound driver selection only affects the music, and sound effects are always the Sound Blaster version.

Again, utterly not uncommon to have multiple versions of the same soundFX depending on the game version/hardware/updates/configuration. Par the gaming course in this era.

SCUMMVM has plenty of limitations and drawbacks (in addition to some useful functionality) as noted here and elsewhere. To my mind the limitations outweigh the benefits, but I use it for testing purposes etc. Their focus is on adding more and more games and "improved and corrected gameplay" -providing maximized original experience accuracy seems very low on their priority list. The audio infrastructrure and development is exceedingly poor, especially in terms of replicating the original audio options and configurability which then directly affects the output.

Think about it. SCUMMVM has been around for, oh, nearly 15 years, and they are just now getting around to perhaps even correctly detecting the CM32L ROMs and pondering that their audio infrastructure is insufficient to say the least in terms of full original replication, but now they even rolled back that recent change because golly their SHA1 ROM-verifying code might be infringing in some way? Again, they just aren't interested enough in accurate original audio replication (amongst other original game aspect replications) and never have been.

DOSBox provides all the tools and configurability flexibility (along with other tools such as MUNT) to really allow anyone to fully experience ALL the different hardware configuration modes (and experience differences thereof) of these games, as originally intended, and, otherwise.

This is just one tiny example, but its the same theme time and again between SCUMMVM and DOSBox.

Regarding DOTT and Sound Blaster + MT-32, wouldn't modern ScummVM be fine? The only limitation I'm seeing here is that there's no way to turn off Sound Blaster support (that I know of), which I think is only an issue if you really want to use your CM-32L as a Sound Blaster substitute.

See Above. Depends on what you mean by "fine" - totally subjective.

I would not suggest that the LAPC-I/CM32L/etc (or even the MT32 in special reprogammability mode) are "sound blaster substitutes" but rather have additional capabilities which may be exploited by some games, and some games better than others, to provide non-musical soundFX. In regards to DOTT, in some cases, these additional soundFX are superceded by the SB compatible digital versions.

I have not gone through the entire game to see if there are CM32L/LAPC-I specific soundFX which are NOT superceded by SB digital versions - perhaps someone else has. If there are, or if you want to experience the CM32L/LAPC-I effects, SCUMMVM cannot replicate that.

Consider the issue of the floppy version, with the Roland upgrade and SCUMMVM - the SB digital soundFX override the CM32L/etc ones, but effectively only in the intro. Later on in the game when there are no SB digital soundFX to override the CM32L etc ones, no special CM32L/etc soundFX can be heard, because SCUMMVM completely lacks any support for them in the first place.

This is true of all other games that have specialized LAPC-I/CM32L soundFX and SCUMMVM as well - try listening to Lure of the Temptress in SCUMMVM (no matter whether you use the internal or an external MT-32 device with the CM32L ROMs etc) versus in DOXBox, either with a real CM32L/etc or with MUNT (internal or external again) configured with the CM32L ROMs - it is literally night and day, or, perhaps ...something... and thunder...you'll hear. You'll never hear the stunning usage of the LAPC-I/CM32L soundFX in Lure on SCUMMVM, because it completely lacks support.

Ultimately, its up to you and your preferences - I happen to prefer greater accuracy, configurabilty, and flexibility so that I can experience these games maximally. Other than testing, I avoid SCUMMVM.

Reply 36 of 84, by thecrankyhermit

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Depends on what "you" consider an "authentic" or "optimized" or "meant to be played" experience.

Trying to minimize subjectivity. Sometimes this is easy. It's well known that Sierra's pre-GM titles were composed for MT-32, so MT-32 is how they're "meant to be played," regardless of if I think they're better with later GM patches, or if I'm nostalgic for Adlib mode. DOTT is more complicated, but most people seem to say that MT-32 is how the music is "meant to be played." I've sort of accepted that, but I wonder why MT-32 support had to be patched in later if that's true.

So for my purposes, what are the reasons one might prefer CM-32L sound effects over the Sound Blaster ones? I can think of a few objective reasons to prefer the SB ones - they came first, which is a point in favor of authenticity, they're more numerous, they're made specifically for DOTT, and you need SB mode to hear voices in the CD-ROM version. Why prefer the CM-32L sounds? If they're just things like "because I want to hear them" or "I want to use my CM-32L," and not things like "some sounds are CM-32L exclusive," then it's still my understanding that MT-32+SB is the optimal experience.

If it was composed on a Roland SC 55 (3 different composers mind you), it would seem that GM would be preferred, especially for the floppy version or without a SB. But if configured for Roland with a CM32L/LAPC-I..you get those extra FX that you dont get with GM or MT-32.

But you do get those extra FX with MIDI+SB, right? Just different versions of the FX.

Did i mention the "it doesnt sound right because that isnt how I remember it" bias preference?

No need. It's irrelevant to what I mean by "meant to be played."

Corrected drivers that allow combinations of audio devices that werent allowed or were limited then? is that "meant to be played"?

I take that on a case by case. For instance, I like how it's now possible to play Monkey Island 2 with MT-32 with Adlib sounds. Technically not "meant to be played," but you're getting the best of both worlds, each world an authentic one on its own, and they don't clash or offend when combined. An example of an enhanced game I don't care for would be Wasteland. The added music is too somber for the rather goofy tone, and it's just an unending loop of tracks that have nothing to do with the area you're in. The game just wasn't meant to have music, and the attempt to shoehorn it in doesn't fit.

I wouldn't put it in a separate category at all. The game makes use of and outputs extra soundFX on a LAPC-I/CM32L (especially meaningful on the floppy version which has little to no SB FX). That can't be denied.

That's good information, which I didn't know, and does make a case for CM-32L's relevancy. But what about the CD-ROM version? Does it have extra FX compared to that? And why play the floppy version of DOTT when the CD-ROM version is available? Not a rhetorical question - I recently asked that question (to myself) about Loom, and found some very good, factual reasons.

SCUMMVM has plenty of limitations and drawbacks (in addition to some useful functionality) as noted here and elsewhere. To my mind the limitations outweigh the benefits, but I use it for testing purposes etc. Their focus is on adding more and more games and "improved and corrected gameplay" -providing maximized original experience accuracy seems very low on their priority list. The audio infrastructrure and development is exceedingly poor, especially in terms of replicating the original audio options and configurability which then directly affects the output.

Ok, but what are these limitations? Everyone poops on ScummVM, but I haven't seen any good reasons that would affect a significant number of games from the perspective of optimization. How is DOTT affected? You bring up MUNT integration issues, but acknowledge this is a tiny issue, and it's easily overcome by using MUNT separately which you'd have to do anyway with DOSBox. You bring up Lure of the Temptress lacking MT-32 support, but the compatibility notes say this, and this doesn't affect DOTT, or any game that isn't Lure of the Tempress.

And again, this isn't a rhetorical question. If I'm playing my games wrong by using ScummVM, I'd like to know. But I need to know HOW this is wrong - it's not enough just to tell me it has limitations and drawbacks.

See Above. Depends on what you mean by "fine" - totally subjective.

"Fine" means "MT-32 + SB in DOTT sound the same whether you're playing on DOSBox or ScummVM." Correct or not?

I would not suggest that the LAPC-I/CM32L/etc (or even the MT32 in special reprogammability mode) are "sound blaster substitutes" but rather have additional capabilities which may be exploited by some games,

I'm just talking about DOTT and CM-32L sound effects. I know there are games that use CM-32L sounds for things that SB can't do, and even more games (including DOTT) that use MT-32 programming to do things that SB can't do. But those aren't what I'm talking about.

This is true of all other games that have specialized LAPC-I/CM32L soundFX and SCUMMVM as well

Not all of them. LSL5's CM-32L effects definitely work in ScummVM, at least as of version 1.8.

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Reply 37 of 84, by Great Hierophant

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thecrankyhermit wrote:

Trying to minimize subjectivity. Sometimes this is easy. It's well known that Sierra's pre-GM titles were composed for MT-32, so MT-32 is how they're "meant to be played," regardless of if I think they're better with later GM patches, or if I'm nostalgic for Adlib mode. DOTT is more complicated, but most people seem to say that MT-32 is how the music is "meant to be played." I've sort of accepted that, but I wonder why MT-32 support had to be patched in later if that's true.

So for my purposes, what are the reasons one might prefer CM-32L sound effects over the Sound Blaster ones? I can think of a few objective reasons to prefer the SB ones - they came first, which is a point in favor of authenticity, they're more numerous, they're made specifically for DOTT, and you need SB mode to hear voices in the CD-ROM version. Why prefer the CM-32L sounds? If they're just things like "because I want to hear them" or "I want to use my CM-32L," and not things like "some sounds are CM-32L exclusive," then it's still my understanding that MT-32+SB is the optimal experience.

The original floppy version of Day of the Tentacle did not support the MT-32 out of the box because the size of the patches took up an extra disk. So in order to get MT-32 support, you had to send away for an MT-32 upgrade disk. LucasArts had previously done this for Loom and Secret of Monkey Island, the patches were available from day one but you would not have been able to enjoy the music from your pricey high-end sound device until you ponied up for them. At least by the time of Day of the Tentacle they were no longer charging money beyond the shipping and handling cost of the patch disk.

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Reply 38 of 84, by thecrankyhermit

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Ah, that makes perfect sense. Was that also the case with Monkey Island 2 and Indy4?

So here's what I assume to be the factual order of events then, and please correct me if you know anything to be wrong, or if you know any facts that call these events into question -
DOTT was originally scored for Roland, and used the CM-32L FX for sound.
Late in the development, they converted the Roland MIDI to OPL2, and upgraded some (but not all) of the Roland FX to digital ones.
Most users didn't have a Roland, hence the day 1 Roland patch disk to save manufacturing costs.
Later, the CD version added voice overs, and upgraded the remaining Roland FX to digital ones.

Based on that, I'd be of the opinion that if you want to see the true original version of the game, play the floppy with a CM-32L and Roland FX, which isn't 100% supported in ScummVM because it will always override the intro with the newer SB effects. If you want the final, most enhanced version of the game, play the CD version with Roland+SB. Doesn't matter if it's MT-32 or CM-32L, because the Roland FX are getting overridded by SB FX (and why play the CD version without SB FX?). ScummVM will support that just fine. And if you want DOTT to look like an inconsistently animated flash game with unnecessarily changed sound samples and a score that's Roland'ish but more anemic, play Remastered.

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Reply 39 of 84, by Great Hierophant

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MI2 and Indy 4 always had sufficient disk space to include the MT-32 sound patches. The original floppy release of Day of the Tentacle came on six disks (either size) and there was a certificate to obtain the extra disk with the patches. Later releases, usually available in Europe included the extra disk or two with the appropriate patches.

However, when it comes to Day and Sam and Max, I am unsure whether the floppy versions should be considered "the true original". The floppy versions of both games have voice acting in their intros. The CD versions also have this voice acting and a lot more. The file stamp dates I have on my floppy and CD images are about the same. However, given that not everyone had CD-ROMs at the time, I believe that the floppy version would have been the way more people at the time would have experienced the game.

As for Sam'N Max, the CD images I have do not have file dates as early as the disk images and I note that in LucasArts' The Adventurer, only a floppy version was advertised in the first issue in which it was offered for sale (unlike Day). However, with both games LucasArts undoubtedly had the voice actors record all the dialog for a full game in one session. So the CD-ROM versions are the "full" game that the company wanted you to experience and hoped you would pay the extra $$ for.

Many CD-ROM games had voice or audio added to them months or years after the floppy versions had hit the stores. KQ5, KQ6, Jones in the Fast Lane, Mixed Up Mother Goose, Loom, Indy 4, SoMI, QfG4 etc. fall into this category.

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