VOGONS


First post, by wallaby

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So I have a Mt-32 and a SC-55. I also have a Gravis Ultrasound but I'm wondering are the main benefits of this card the midi capabilities? So if I use external midi, am I bypassing one of the primary advantages of this card? I know it has a higher sample rate too and more voices but not enough games use the GUS natively for me to be really excited about it.

I'm only just discovering other sound cards. I originally thought the GUS was a must have. Not really sure now.

Reply 1 of 15, by Crols

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The GUS is great for games that use the tracker format, it could mix the different voices in hardware and therefore sounded better than the Sound Blaster type cards of the era. It's midi quality while good, is inferior to what an external module like a SC-55 can deliver. Also the GUS is not MT32 compatible, as the MT-32 could be programmed to produce new instrument sounds, and the GUS lacks this capability. I wouldn't say the GUS is useless though, it is as stated great for tracker type games.

Reply 3 of 15, by Crols

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Jazz Jackrabbit, Zone 66, there are a number of Epic Mega-games pinball games that took great advantage of the gus too. Unfortunately the number of games that have direct GUS support are not very many. If I'm not mistaken I believe the original Unreal also used tracker music so that may interest you as a well.

I should also ask are you running Star Control 2 out of pure dos or a dos environment in windows? I can't be positive but I seem to recall the game having issues when windows was running.

Reply 5 of 15, by CkRtech

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gdjacobs wrote:

One Must Fall 2097

A game with awesome music that sounds TERRIBLE on my CT1770 SB16!

Displaced Gamers (YouTube) - DOS Gaming Aspect Ratio - 320x200 || The History of 240p || Dithering on the Sega Genesis with Composite Video

Reply 7 of 15, by KainXVIII

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Crusader: No Remorse/Regret?
Also, if tracker support is superior on Ultrasound is it wise to use dosbox gus emulation for this games instead of sb16?

Reply 8 of 15, by CkRtech

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gdjacobs wrote:

I'm guessing you've got a noiseblaster, there!

Indeed. I'll change it out for one of my other cards...someday.

Displaced Gamers (YouTube) - DOS Gaming Aspect Ratio - 320x200 || The History of 240p || Dithering on the Sega Genesis with Composite Video

Reply 9 of 15, by Scali

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wallaby wrote:

I originally thought the GUS was a must have. Not really sure now.

It is, if you're into 90s demoscene stuff (demos, MOD/ST3/XM music etc).
For games it wasn't all that popular. Its main weak point was that it wasn't properly backward compatible with AdLib/SB.
I guess one redeeming value was that MegaEm allowed you to emulate MT-32 and Sound Canvas quite convincingly. These Roland modules were quite expensive back in the day. They weren't all that popular for gaming, but Roland had deals with various developers (most notably Sierra) to get support in games anyway. So the fact that MT-32/Sound Canvas are supported reasonably widely is not really an indication that many people actually owned and used these devices for games.

But if you have the real thing, there's not much use in having a GUS to emulate them.

http://scalibq.wordpress.com/just-keeping-it- … ro-programming/

Reply 10 of 15, by BloodyCactus

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halloween harry was all tracked music too.

--/\-[ Stu : Bloody Cactus :: [ https://bloodycactus.com :: http://kråketær.com ]-/\--

Reply 11 of 15, by chinny22

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I only knew about SoundBlaster till joining up here, so thought the AWE was the top dog, how wrong I was!
Knew nothing about Roland, MIDI and that side of things. Very happy with my SC55 and worth every penny

I knew of GUS growing up but that's about it, Since joining here I also thought I really wanted one but as I'm not into the demoscene Its only the few epic games mentioned above that I "need" one for and prices are crazy so for me its not worth the money IMHO for me anyway.

but if I already had one, I would use it in a build in a heartbeat! its another option to try out and see the difference if nothing else

Reply 12 of 15, by wallaby

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These Roland modules were quite expensive back in the day. They weren't all that popular for gaming, but Roland had deals with various developers (most notably Sierra) to get support in games anyway. So the fact that MT-32/Sound Canvas are supported reasonably widely is not really an indication that many people actually owned and used these devices for games.

That makes a lot of sense. I had no idea good midi music was even a thing. I never liked the sound of midi, and even later when recording music, I only slowly warmed up to it. I always thought midi music in Windows was just terrible. Very surprised to learn about the MT-32 and Sound Canvas.

I should also ask are you running Star Control 2 out of pure dos or a dos environment in windows?

Pure DOS. I tested the same install on DOSBOX with Gravis emulation and it worked fine. I started wondering how accurate DOSBOX was with the Gravis and if all this effort was worth the cost. I'll make a practical comparison between DOSBOX and a real machine. If the emulated environment is indistinguishable from the real thing, I'll struggle to justify my ultimate 486 machine.

Also, if tracker support is superior on Ultrasound is it wise to use dosbox gus emulation for this games instead of sb16?

The ultimate question. If DOSBOX does a better job more reliably than a real Gravis then why bother with the real thing other than general curiosity?

Reply 13 of 15, by Scali

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wallaby wrote:

That makes a lot of sense. I had no idea good midi music was even a thing. I never liked the sound of midi, and even later when recording music, I only slowly warmed up to it. I always thought midi music in Windows was just terrible. Very surprised to learn about the MT-32 and Sound Canvas.

Yes, I guess MIDI mainly got a bad rap from people playing generic MIDI songs over generic OPL2/OPL3 cards.
MT-32/Sound Canvas were semi-professional solutions, and actually sounded quite good (like a budget Roland synthesizer from the 80s, which essentially is what they were... a cheap knockoff of the technology of the legendary D-50 synthesizer). They were among the first serious audio solutions for PCs, and certainly better than the AdLib in terms of sound quality. But due to the high price they never became mainstream.
There's even the Roland LAPC-1, which is basically an MPU-401 midi interface and MT-32 on a single card. That was the cheapest option.
To get an idea, this magazine lists a Roland setup for $995 (MPU-401 card, MT-32 and software): https://books.google.nl/books?id=fHghpJa3va4C … 20price&f=false

wallaby wrote:

The ultimate question. If DOSBOX does a better job more reliably than a real Gravis then why bother with the real thing other than general curiosity?

I think it depends on the software used. The GUS uses hardware mixing, so all GUS software will use the same mixing routine.
For SB16, a software mixer is built into the software. Some have good mixers, others, not so good. In theory an SB16 could sound better than a GUS, if you throw a good enough mixing algorithm and enough CPU at it. In practice, most software of the GUS/SB16 era was aimed at a 386 or 486, so corners had to be cut with mixing.
I think in the case of DOSBox, sometimes SB16 may be a better option, because the GUS emulation isn't that great.

http://scalibq.wordpress.com/just-keeping-it- … ro-programming/

Reply 14 of 15, by jesolo

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Scali wrote:

To get an idea, this magazine lists a Roland setup for $995 (MPU-401 card, MT-32 and software): https://books.google.nl/books?id=fHghpJa3va4C … 20price&f=false

Just to add to this point and why not many people were able to afford it - $995 from 1988 in today's money is about $2,025.00 (using the US inflation rate).

Reply 15 of 15, by Scali

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jesolo wrote:

Just to add to this point and why not many people were able to afford it - $995 from 1988 in today's money is about $2,025.00 (using the US inflation rate).

Yea, this blog also lists some prices:
http://nerdlypleasures.blogspot.nl/2013/05/ho … d-hardware.html
Roughly speaking, an MT-32 setup was more than twice as expensive as an AdLib, which in itself wasn't cheap (you could get an entire C64 computer for less, which in my opinion has superior sound).

Roland audio was the "GeForce Titan" of sound cards back in the day 😀
I think it's a bit of a shame that this aspect is all too often overlooked in today's 'retro enthusiast' circles. It's an important piece of historical context. I personally never met anyone who actually owned a Roland audio setup. It simply wasn't affordable for mere mortals.
Yes, it was better than an AdLib, but in the real world, people actually had AdLibs (or clones). And at that price difference, it had better be.

These days you just download an emulator for free, and fire up some MT-32 or Sound Canvas stuff. It's too easy.

http://scalibq.wordpress.com/just-keeping-it- … ro-programming/