gameragodzilla wrote:

daniel_u wrote:

There are lot of differences between the 2 systems. The original(consoles) was buffer. The projector is fallback. […]
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lowenz wrote:

So the scene shadows are clearly wrong from 2002 in shadowbuffer mode 😁
Projector mode shadows must be there in shadowbuffer too, with different positions of course, but must be there (they're the shadows of the window and plants beyond it).

There are lot of differences between the 2 systems. The original(consoles) was buffer. The projector is fallback.

For ages people have been playing with this one(projector) and think this is normal.

Projector mode has been wrong since 2002. 😉

I spent most of my time playing projector that I found some of my tactics I used to ghost past areas didn't work anymore and had to come up with new ones. Still a beautiful looking game.

I just wish dgVoodoo 2 didn't stutter like it did. It's not unplayable but it's still annoying nonetheless.

When starting a new level then the game gets dropped back to windowed mode (game window is resized by the game to the game resolution and also positioned to the top left corner - DXGI does this automatically and so it doesn't like resizing/positioning the window when it's in fullscreen mode).
(Somehow that window resize code should be removed from the game...)
If the game resolution is the same as that of your desktop then it seems to be running in fullscreen but it's borderless windowed in fact. So, stuttering can be caused by a temporary interfering with the desktop composition, sometimes I experienced such phenomenons in general.
What about enabling Alt-Enter for DX and forcing back the game to real fullscreen right after starting a level?

lowenz wrote:

ed_barber, good catch! […]
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ed_barber, good catch!

Also see the (NO) shadows on the floor comparing to projector shadows!

dgVoodoo2 + Projector mode:

dgVoodoo2 + Shadow Buffer:

Shadow Buffer (no fix):

Projector- and shadowbuffer-shadows are completely different in general.
For example, shadowbuffering can handle multiple shadow-covering because it works with distances and comparison sampling, while projector mode requires additional logic (in fact, reverse-logic) and steps to achieve the 'ALMOST same'.
I could show bunch of places where the two modes produce different results. Even in the training room there is a place where projector generates a shadow on the floor but shadowbuffer doesn't.

Thicker light beams: the light beams are always rendered with the same thickness, but with shadow buffer mode, the game renders a few very thick beams over the thinner ones, so they kinda gets blurred (like with dgVoodoo).
If very thick ones are missed then you get the pure, sharp thin ones. Very thick ones are dependent on a specific GPU-feature and I take the one from GF4, by a screenshot posted by Lowenz earlier.

Thanks man, always exhausting 😁

Dege wrote:

Thicker light beams: the light beams are always rendered with the same thickness, but with shadow buffer mode, the game renders a few very thick beams over the thinner ones, so they kinda gets blurred (like with dgVoodoo).
If very thick ones are missed then you get the pure, sharp thin ones. Very thick ones are dependent on a specific GPU-feature and I take the one from GF4, by a screenshot posted by Lowenz earlier.

Hmm not sure i understand but i can see a difference . Is it a bug in the wrapper?
Also about the color of the light on Lambert suit? The blue color light on him is not render as GF4/xbox console does.
"
Look at the light on Lambert when he talks with Sam. When they are both very close. You can observe that there is a color to the light that falls on lambert(bald guy). I thought , at first that is my monitor set up wrong , but if you watch closely on the video is the same.

https://youtu.be/AivID1nVcCs?list=PLzdIPTXk89 … y92FGsql-ssJgZC
Play from 2.39 mark. You can tell there is a BLUE tint on Lambert. DgVoodoo wrapper does not render this. "

I can post some pics with the difference if it helps.

daniel_u wrote:

Dege wrote:

Thicker light beams: the light beams are always rendered with the same thickness, but with shadow buffer mode, the game renders a few very thick beams over the thinner ones, so they kinda gets blurred (like with dgVoodoo).
If very thick ones are missed then you get the pure, sharp thin ones. Very thick ones are dependent on a specific GPU-feature and I take the one from GF4, by a screenshot posted by Lowenz earlier.

Hmm not sure i understand but i can see a difference . Is it a bug in the wrapper?

If the game looks the same on a GF4 then it's not. As far as I know it looks the same.

daniel_u wrote:

Also about the color of the light on Lambert suit? The blue color light on him is not render as GF4/xbox console does. " Look at […]
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Also about the color of the light on Lambert suit? The blue color light on him is not render as GF4/xbox console does.
"
Look at the light on Lambert when he talks with Sam. When they are both very close. You can observe that there is a color to the light that falls on lambert(bald guy). I thought , at first that is my monitor set up wrong , but if you watch closely on the video is the same.

https://youtu.be/AivID1nVcCs?list=PLzdIPTXk89 … y92FGsql-ssJgZC
Play from 2.39 mark. You can tell there is a BLUE tint on Lambert. DgVoodoo wrapper does not render this. "

I can post some pics with the difference if it helps.

I don't have a clue...
Is it the PC version? Maybe some rounding error on early hw or sg like that? The shadows look to be very low resolution.
I think nothing implies the blue color. It shouldn't be blue.

Dege wrote:

If the game looks the same on a GF4 then it's not. As far as I know it looks the same. […]
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daniel_u wrote:

Dege wrote:

Thicker light beams: the light beams are always rendered with the same thickness, but with shadow buffer mode, the game renders a few very thick beams over the thinner ones, so they kinda gets blurred (like with dgVoodoo).
If very thick ones are missed then you get the pure, sharp thin ones. Very thick ones are dependent on a specific GPU-feature and I take the one from GF4, by a screenshot posted by Lowenz earlier.

Hmm not sure i understand but i can see a difference . Is it a bug in the wrapper?

If the game looks the same on a GF4 then it's not. As far as I know it looks the same.

daniel_u wrote:

Also about the color of the light on Lambert suit? The blue color light on him is not render as GF4/xbox console does. " Look at […]
Show full quote

Also about the color of the light on Lambert suit? The blue color light on him is not render as GF4/xbox console does.
"
Look at the light on Lambert when he talks with Sam. When they are both very close. You can observe that there is a color to the light that falls on lambert(bald guy). I thought , at first that is my monitor set up wrong , but if you watch closely on the video is the same.

https://youtu.be/AivID1nVcCs?list=PLzdIPTXk89 … y92FGsql-ssJgZC
Play from 2.39 mark. You can tell there is a BLUE tint on Lambert. DgVoodoo wrapper does not render this. "

I can post some pics with the difference if it helps.

I don't have a clue...
Is it the PC version? Maybe some rounding error on early hw or sg like that? The shadows look to be very low resolution.
I think nothing implies the blue color. It shouldn't be blue.

Hi,
Using the wrapper i cant see the thin light beams. I have tested it side by side.

Yes, the PC version. I have tested on a GF4 Ti. I posted the video with the time mark in order for you to see. 😀
Now i'm not sure if it is blue or blue-ish or something. But there is a visible difference on the suit and chair.

I will post some pics with the difference asap and try to run the game on my old machine at a higher resolution.

lowenz wrote:

Your hw specs?

I have a gaming laptop. https://www.amazon.com/GL752VW-DH74-17-Inch-D … DE9VKGP9BX&th=1

Dege wrote:

When starting a new level then the game gets dropped back to windowed mode (game window is resized by the game to the game resol […]
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gameragodzilla wrote:

I spent most of my time playing projector that I found some of my tactics I used to ghost past areas didn't work anymore and had to come up with new ones. Still a beautiful looking game.

I just wish dgVoodoo 2 didn't stutter like it did. It's not unplayable but it's still annoying nonetheless.

When starting a new level then the game gets dropped back to windowed mode (game window is resized by the game to the game resolution and also positioned to the top left corner - DXGI does this automatically and so it doesn't like resizing/positioning the window when it's in fullscreen mode).
(Somehow that window resize code should be removed from the game...)
If the game resolution is the same as that of your desktop then it seems to be running in fullscreen but it's borderless windowed in fact. So, stuttering can be caused by a temporary interfering with the desktop composition, sometimes I experienced such phenomenons in general.
What about enabling Alt-Enter for DX and forcing back the game to real fullscreen right after starting a level?

I'm not sure what you mean. I do know the game goes into windowed mode for some reason unless I force resolution, which does seem to be your explanation, but I don't know how to actually force pure fullscreen like you're saying.

Good HW 😁

Did you try the widescreen fix of SC 1/2/3?

Remember to NOT use the bundled d3d8.dll/d3d8.ini.

gameragodzilla wrote:

I have a gaming laptop. https://www.amazon.com/GL752VW-DH74-17-Inch-D … DE9VKGP9BX&th=1 […]
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lowenz wrote:

Your hw specs?

I have a gaming laptop. https://www.amazon.com/GL752VW-DH74-17-Inch-D … DE9VKGP9BX&th=1

Dege wrote:

When starting a new level then the game gets dropped back to windowed mode (game window is resized by the game to the game resol […]
Show full quote

gameragodzilla wrote:

I spent most of my time playing projector that I found some of my tactics I used to ghost past areas didn't work anymore and had to come up with new ones. Still a beautiful looking game.

I just wish dgVoodoo 2 didn't stutter like it did. It's not unplayable but it's still annoying nonetheless.

When starting a new level then the game gets dropped back to windowed mode (game window is resized by the game to the game resolution and also positioned to the top left corner - DXGI does this automatically and so it doesn't like resizing/positioning the window when it's in fullscreen mode).
(Somehow that window resize code should be removed from the game...)
If the game resolution is the same as that of your desktop then it seems to be running in fullscreen but it's borderless windowed in fact. So, stuttering can be caused by a temporary interfering with the desktop composition, sometimes I experienced such phenomenons in general.
What about enabling Alt-Enter for DX and forcing back the game to real fullscreen right after starting a level?

I'm not sure what you mean. I do know the game goes into windowed mode for some reason unless I force resolution, which does seem to be your explanation, but I don't know how to actually force pure fullscreen like you're saying.

In dgVoodooSetup, on the DirectX tab, uncheck 'Disable Alt-Enter to toggle screen state' (checked by default).
With this option unchecked, you are able to switch between fullscreen/windowed state by pressing Alt-Enter when running the game.

Dege wrote:

In dgVoodooSetup, on the DirectX tab, uncheck 'Disable Alt-Enter to toggle screen state' (checked by default).
With this option unchecked, you are able to switch between fullscreen/windowed state by pressing Alt-Enter when running the game.

Yeah I figured that out. But even after I hit Alt-Enter it still stutters a bit. Not quite as badly, but the same initial stuttering is still there. Basically, the game's FPS lags a bit when the save first loads and then the game freezes for like a quarter of a second when I use thermal. And then it goes to normal.

Here's a good video showing what the light beams should look like in Splinter Cell. Not sure what GF4 chipset it was tested on but it's really thinner and there are more beams.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g0UAK9u_A3M

I also saw a video of the oil refinery level in Splinter Cell using a GF4 workstation chipset and noticed the water has a more advanced effect than the ones used by other hardware. Notice the water surface moves around but on other hardware, it just looks more stationary.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LGux4dcIvqY

ed_barber wrote:

Here's a good video showing what the light beams should look like in Splinter Cell. Not sure what GF4 chipset it was tested on b […]
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Here's a good video showing what the light beams should look like in Splinter Cell. Not sure what GF4 chipset it was tested on but it's really thinner and there are more beams.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g0UAK9u_A3M

I also saw a video of the oil refinery level in Splinter Cell using a GF4 workstation chipset and noticed the water has a more advanced effect than the ones used by other hardware. Notice the water surface moves around but on other hardware, it just looks more stationary.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LGux4dcIvqY

I agree with the light. It's thinner .
@Dege :the lights must look as it would pass through the blinds. Thinner.
Also the light that lands on Lambert or the lit area on him(..i dont know how to say it better )(when near Sam, also the chair and the computers behind ) has a blue-ish color.
About the second video. I see a slight difference but i cant say what really is it.

Then what about this one?

Re: dgVoodoo 2 for DirectX 11

Lowenz, you took this screenshot on your Gf FX5200, right?

Frankly, thinner light beams are because of missing parts from the rendering.
I think I could 'restore' the thin-state but the current one looks better IMO.

(ps: on the thinbeam-one even the aura of the incoming light is missing from the rolling shutter)
(ps2: and having another look, aura of Sam's headlight is also missing. Is that OK?)

Hi Dege.
Thanks for having a look.

I can assure you that the 1st video ed_barber shared is the real thing. On a GF 4Ti that's exactly what i saw, yesterday.
The FX series cant be trusted.

As for the aura can you post picture please. I cant really tell what are you refering to.

Dege wrote:

Then what about this one? […]
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Then what about this one?

Re: dgVoodoo 2 for DirectX 11

Lowenz, you took this screenshot on your Gf FX5200, right?

Frankly, thinner light beams are because of missing parts from the rendering.
I think I could 'restore' the thin-state but the current one looks better IMO.

Exactly.
And me too I think the actual sunshafts are the best choice (as the smoothed shadows).

lowenz wrote:

Dege wrote:

Then what about this one? […]
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Then what about this one?

Re: dgVoodoo 2 for DirectX 11

Lowenz, you took this screenshot on your Gf FX5200, right?

Frankly, thinner light beams are because of missing parts from the rendering.
I think I could 'restore' the thin-state but the current one looks better IMO.

Exactly.
And me too I think the actual sunshafts are the best choice (as the smoothed shadows).

Well if the wrapper does too many cosmetic changes and it changes the original view well that it's not a wrapper. It's a mod. It represents the view of a person and not the view of it's creators.
Take Unreal, a game you like, now if we change something you like since childhood , how would you feel. 😁

I tihnk the water with a GF 4 has more ripples.

Water with GF4 Ti.

Water with DgVoodoo:

daniel_u wrote:

Well if the wrapper does too many cosmetic changes and it changes the original view well that it's not a wrapper. It's a mod. It represents the view of a person and not the view of it's creators.

Ok, it's true, but all the changes dgVoodoo does is adding extra filtering to the depth-comparison sampling.
I wonder why the 'smooting rendering' code is present in the game if the original, intended look is the thin beam style.
I'll try to find a video about the original console version to see if only the pc-port didn't work the same way with the contemporary GF4 hw&drivers.

daniel_u wrote:

I tihnk the water with a GF 4 has more ripples. […]
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I tihnk the water with a GF 4 has more ripples.

Water with GF4 Ti.

Water with DgVoodoo:

Little difference, but keep in mind that a GF4 as a hardware worked at a lower computing precision than a nowadays GPU.
This is most obvious when looking at the shadows of a GF4: I bet it internally did its computing with 16bit (or 24) half-precision floats (not IEEE-standard 32 bit ones) so the result of vector projection (for shadow sampling) produced more pixelated and rude-moving shadows than it should have been.
(ps: I encountered the fact that vertex shaders of version 1.x are not compatible with IEEE-standard 4.x ones. I did have to include extra code in the HLSL shaders to mimic 1.x in some cases.)

Dege wrote:

Ok, it's true, but all the changes dgVoodoo does is adding extra filtering to the depth-comparison sampling. I wonder why the 's […]
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Ok, it's true, but all the changes dgVoodoo does is adding extra filtering to the depth-comparison sampling.
I wonder why the 'smooting rendering' code is present in the game if the original, intended look is the thin beam style.
I'll try to find a video about the original console version to see if only the pc-port didn't work the same way with the contemporary GF4 hw&drivers.

(ps: I encountered that vertex shaders of version 1.x are not compatible with IEEE-standard 4.x ones. I did have to include extra code in the HLSL shaders to mimic 1.x in some cases.)

I was just saying that if there is problem with code then ok. But if there is a change that alters the game too much, is not right.
Dont get me wrong. I love your work. I know you are doing your best. Many thanks.

I can show you how bad SC2 was ported to PS3. 😀)

Dege wrote:

Ok, it's true, but all the changes dgVoodoo does is adding extra filtering to the depth-comparison sampling.
I wonder why the 'smooting rendering' code is present in the game if the original, intended look is the thin beam style.
I'll try to find a video about the original console version to see if only the pc-port didn't work the same way with the contemporary GF4 hw&drivers.

need me to bust out my capcard and xbox for this? i have component cables and an Elgato HD60 so i can do reasonably high quality capture. that and i have all the splinter cell games on my xbox HDD so if you need reference to early levels on the xbox versions of SC or SC:PT then i can.

WOW, thanks!
You'll end a long long discussion about the "original implementation" of a lot of things 😁

Seconding the request for you to look at Shadows of the Empire. dgVoodoo2 is (even with that issue) currently the best way to play that game on high-res monitors.

Stuff you probably don't want to look at yet (either because I have a feeling they use GDI interaction or weird hacks), but just saying they have issues:

Battle Isle: The Andosia War - Cursor coordinate issues (no emulated AR correction, no forced resolution). Can't use top or left parts of the screen. dgVoodoo2 is still somehow the best way to play this game.

Star Trek Armada - Menu FMVs don't work. This actually uses two separate windows and overlays them in some weird way. It also uses Bink Video. Menus also seem to switch to windowed mode even if you disable application controlled window/fullscreen mode. dgVooodoo2 is still the best way to play this game on Win8/10, if you're OK with menus not working properly.