VOGONS


Upgrading cache on Super 7 motherboards

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First post, by BastlerMike

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Some motherboard models of the socket 7 era were sold with different cache memory sizes. One of them is the Soyo SY-5EH5 (1 SRAM chip / 512kb). The same board with 2 SRAM chips / 1024 kB is called SY-5EHM. So the question came up whether it would be possible to solder an additional SRAM chip on the designated place to double the onboard cache memory.

Unfortunately the second chip (EliteMT) isn't recognized. I noticed a hardwired jumper (JP24, now equipped with pin header, white cap), which might be related to the cache configuration. In either position the additional memory is not detected. I wonder if there's an incompatibiliy because of the different chip brands (they should have identical specifics though) or if I missed something else.
Does someone have the 1 MB version of this motherboard for comparison?

Reply 1 of 23, by Skalabala

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More info on this will be great!
What if you could fit another cache chip that can handle K6 3+ at 120FSB+

Reply 2 of 23, by kanecvr

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Just disable L3 (on motherboard) cache when using a K6-2+/K6-III CPU. Disabling that slow cache usually makes it perform better.

Reply 3 of 23, by meljor

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kanecvr wrote:

Just disable L3 (on motherboard) cache when using a K6-2+/K6-III CPU. Disabling that slow cache usually makes it perform better.

'' i have a problem, my bmw e30 doesn't start!'' So what?? Buy a new one, it's better and quicker anyway....??

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Reply 4 of 23, by Skalabala

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kanecvr wrote:

Just disable L3 (on motherboard) cache when using a K6-2+/K6-III CPU. Disabling that slow cache usually makes it perform better.

Thanks for the reply bud 😀
But I did try and it losses performance 🙁

Reply 5 of 23, by kanecvr

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Skalabala wrote:
kanecvr wrote:

Just disable L3 (on motherboard) cache when using a K6-2+/K6-III CPU. Disabling that slow cache usually makes it perform better.

Thanks for the reply bud 😀
But I did try and it losses performance 🙁

That doesn't make sense. On-motherboard cache runs at FSB speed, and it's much slower then the L2 cache found on a K6-II+/K6-III chip witch runs at CPU frequency. Disabling the slow cache means you can cache less ram, but your system will be faster overall, especially in FPU intensive games. I run the super-7 machine in my signature with on-motherboard cache disabled and 256MB of ram, and it's very fast - but this only goes for CPUs with on-die L2 cache... if you're using a regular K6-2 or a P54C, you need that L2 cache working. For some reason I was under the impression you are planning to use a K6-III, witch is why I recommended you disable on motherboard cache completely...

The only way you'd lose performance when disabling on-motherboard cache with a K6-2+/K6-III is if you were using more ram then the CPU can cache. The 256KB L2 cache on a K6-III can cache up to 256MB of ram if I'm not mistaking (my system slows down with more then that and L3 cache disabled).

You can solder pretty much any cache chips of the same size / speed, if you replace all of them, but it's not an easy undertaking. The chips are not easy to source (but they should be cheap) and they are pretty difficult to solder on the board by an amateur, even with proper tools (you need an SMD rework station, SMD paste, flux and solder wick).

meljor wrote:
kanecvr wrote:

Just disable L3 (on motherboard) cache when using a K6-2+/K6-III CPU. Disabling that slow cache usually makes it perform better.

'' i have a problem, my bmw e30 doesn't start!'' So what?? Buy a new one, it's better and quicker anyway....??

More like:

Q: "the ABS on my E30 isn't working"
A: "ABS on E30's is crap anyway, remove it completely to save weight. The car will stop better without it"

Reply 6 of 23, by Skalabala

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Oh my I see you have a K6 3 550!! Is it overclocked or really a 550??
On my GA5AX 5.2 with 128mb ram I lose performance for sure if L3 is turned of 🙁
I have K6 3 500 ANZ on 5.5x115 633mhz its unstable if I go higher 🙁

Reply 7 of 23, by Tetrium

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Skalabala wrote:

Oh my I see you have a K6 3 550!! Is it overclocked or really a 550??
On my GA5AX 5.2 with 128mb ram I lose performance for sure if L3 is turned of 🙁
I have K6 3 500 ANZ on 5.5x115 633mhz its unstable if I go higher 🙁

It's not unimportant to keep in mind the "K6-3/550 ANZ" is not an ordinary K6-3, but one of the K6-3+ mobiles.
These are different in a couple ways, one being some boards will work with the ordinary K6-3 but not with the K6-3+'s.

Keeping this in mind key differences like these are usually important to specify, as it can save you a lot of frustration down the road (and it can actually damage/kill components).

cpu-world has a LOT of info about these chips, as does k6plus.com

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Reply 8 of 23, by quicknick

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Sorry for necro'ing this thread, but I have a somewhat related problem.

Got myself this board a few days ago, it's a SY-5EHM with no version number (pre-1.0), along with a Cyrix Mii-300. Today was its turn for testing, and soon I found out that the board hangs before attempting to boot, regardless if I used a FDD or HDD. POST code 61, hmm, something about cache it seems. Disabling the external cache solved this and the board progresses to code FF without any problems.
Checked again with cache enabled, of course it hangs, and I noticed one of the cache chips is getting noticeably hotter (the one near the edge).
OK, so disabled cache again, and I was ready to drop my only K6-2+ for a quick run, but decided to check the voltages first. And, surprise, they are way off... Around 3.5V instead of 2.9 with the jumpers set for the Cyrix, and the lowest setting of 2.0 gives about 2.7(!) I'll investigate this tomorrow, and open a new thread here if necessary, but it doesn't look good.

BastlerMike, have you made any progress in your attempt to upgrade the cache? Here's a shot of the same area on my board, I couldn't spot any difference other than a 0 ohm resistor being soldered at R133 on your board and R139 on mine. Worth checking, maybe. And that JP24 - just an idea, I haven't checked but think it might toggle between 5V and 3.3V for the TAG RAM.

The attachment SY-5EHM cache.jpg is no longer available

Reply 9 of 23, by BastlerMike

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Great observation . I don't own this board anymore but I will keep this R133/139 thing in mind.
Have you been able to solve your voltage troubles?

Reply 10 of 23, by quicknick

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Not only the voltage trouble, but also the cache started working out of the blue.
Turned out JP4 (CPU voltage manual/auto) works exactly opposite of how it is described on th99 (and undocumented in the manual, iirc). Can't explain the absurdly wrong voltage on "auto" setting, but perhaps there's a reason the VRM section is heavily modified in newer revisions 🤣 Once toggled, voltages were spot on, so I tried my K6-2+ on this board. After a few failed attempts, the board booted ok with (now L3) cache enabled. Ran some quick tests then reverted to the original Cyrix, cache still worked ok...
I also tried for the first time two K5-100 CPUs that I got NOS almost a year back, and the board didn't POST with either of them. Thought I got two defective chips, but since then I've tested them on another board and they are jolly good.

So, quite a mixed experience with this 5EHM, not as I remember from ~20 years ago (this was my first SS7 board, had it from '99-2001, but I think it was ver. 1.3)

Reply 11 of 23, by Sphere478

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To the comments about enabling or disabling cache for better or worse performance.

My personal experience has been that

DISABLING board cache on my 430tx chipset with 256mb ram and a k63+550 at 75x6 450 results in better performance

But,

ENABLING board cache on my ALI Aladdin V with k63+ 550 at 105x5.5 577 and 1gb ram results in increased performance.

So it seems, one recommendation does not fit all situations.

The performance hit is small. So small actually that the only way to tell is by benchmark.

Sphere's PCB projects.
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Sphere’s socket 5/7 cpu collection.
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SUCCESSFUL K6-2+ to K6-3+ Full Cache Enable Mod
-
Tyan S1564S to S1564D single to dual processor conversion (also s1563 and s1562)

Reply 12 of 23, by Skalabala

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Yes on the 430 the 256kb of the K6 3+ will be superior 😀
Cache on ALi helps with minimum fps stutter 😀 1Mb cache on ALi is nice, can see it work. Especially because you can run the cache stable at 120x5
1Gb ram you say? What motherboard is that 😁

Reply 13 of 23, by Zerthimon

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I soldered a 64x64 SRAM chip, to make a total of 1MB of cache, on a MVP3 board once. That didn't change a thing. No idea why.

Reply 14 of 23, by Sphere478

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Skalabala wrote on 2021-11-12, 18:41:

Yes on the 430 the 256kb of the K6 3+ will be superior 😀
Cache on ALi helps with minimum fps stutter 😀 1Mb cache on ALi is nice, can see it work. Especially because you can run the cache stable at 120x5
1Gb ram you say? What motherboard is that 😁

ga-5aa.

Others have gotten 1.5 to work in it, I’m currently attempting to get 3gb to work in it

Converted registered SDRAM

This mobo only has 512k in it,

Upgrading to 2mb would be a very welcome upgrade.

Is there a way to do 4mb? 8mb?

Zerthimon wrote on 2021-11-12, 19:28:

I soldered a 64x64 SRAM chip, to make a total of 1MB of cache, on a MVP3 board once. That didn't change a thing. No idea why.

So it still showed the same amount of cache?

I think there are resistors maybe that confugure the size?

Sphere's PCB projects.
-
Sphere’s socket 5/7 cpu collection.
-
SUCCESSFUL K6-2+ to K6-3+ Full Cache Enable Mod
-
Tyan S1564S to S1564D single to dual processor conversion (also s1563 and s1562)

Reply 15 of 23, by Skalabala

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I do not think there is a way to get more than 1Mb cache on an ALi chipset.
The chipset wont know what to do with it.
You can only have 1Mb of cache if you have Rev G,H of the chipset.

Reply 16 of 23, by Zerthimon

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Sphere478 wrote on 2021-11-12, 21:04:
Zerthimon wrote on 2021-11-12, 19:28:

I soldered a 64x64 SRAM chip, to make a total of 1MB of cache, on a MVP3 board once. That didn't change a thing. No idea why.

So it still showed the same amount of cache?

I think there are resistors maybe that confugure the size?

Yeah the bios and cachechk still show the same amount of cache (512K).

Reply 17 of 23, by Sphere478

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I’m looking to upgrade the cache on my asus p5a 1.06

It has 512k right now and no tag chip.

I was wondering,

Are there tag chips and cache chips that would give me 1 or 2 mb of cache and work on this board, but not only that, be rated for higher fsb? I’m overclocking it now 120x5 and I had to disable the cache because of memory errors. Soon as I disabled the cache memory errors went away and I can even get 2 2 2 timings so definitely the cache bugging out.

I guess I need a lower ns cache?

Asus p5a cache upgrade!

I made a thread for the topic also.

Sphere's PCB projects.
-
Sphere’s socket 5/7 cpu collection.
-
SUCCESSFUL K6-2+ to K6-3+ Full Cache Enable Mod
-
Tyan S1564S to S1564D single to dual processor conversion (also s1563 and s1562)

Reply 18 of 23, by TgumanoidT

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Sphere478 wrote on 2021-12-27, 12:59:
I’m looking to upgrade the cache on my asus p5a 1.06 […]
Show full quote

I’m looking to upgrade the cache on my asus p5a 1.06

It has 512k right now and no tag chip.

I was wondering,

Are there tag chips and cache chips that would give me 1 or 2 mb of cache and work on this board, but not only that, be rated for higher fsb? I’m overclocking it now 120x5 and I had to disable the cache because of memory errors. Soon as I disabled the cache memory errors went away and I can even get 2 2 2 timings so definitely the cache bugging out.

Ali Aladdin 5 supports max 1Mb external cache.

Reply 19 of 23, by Socket3

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kanecvr wrote on 2016-12-16, 19:31:

Just disable L3 (on motherboard) cache when using a K6-2+/K6-III CPU. Disabling that slow cache usually makes it perform better.

Skalabala wrote on 2016-12-17, 09:37:
kanecvr wrote:

Just disable L3 (on motherboard) cache when using a K6-2+/K6-III CPU. Disabling that slow cache usually makes it perform better.

Thanks for the reply bud 😀
But I did try and it losses performance 🙁

Disabling on motherboard cache is a double edged sword. If all you're interested is playing period correct 3D games, be it in software mode or hardware accelerated, disabling on motherboard cache on a K6-2+/K6-3 system will improve performance - BUT - it you're interested in running synthetic benchmarks, you'll find that in lots of cases you get lower scores.

The reason is simple - for the K6-2+/K6-3, on die cache runs at CPU speed. With 256KB of fast on die L2 cache, the slow on motherboard L3 cache that runs at front side bus speed becomes a bottleneck. Disabling it will improve the memory subsystem's latency and memory operations speed.

This behavior can be observed on the intel side of things with the 440BX chipset. While a 450MHz Pentium II's performance in benchmarks is overall higher then a overclocked Mendocino Celeron running at the same speed (Celeron 300 + slotket / Celeron 300A @ 100x4.5), the Celeron is faster in most games, especially first person shooters.

This was all over review sites and gaming forums back in the day. The answer is the same as with the K6-2+/3: The Mendocino Celeron has on die, full speed 128kb of L2 cache, running at 300 (in this case 450MHz) while the Pentium II has 512kb of L2 cache on cartridge, running at half CPU speed, 225Mhz. Whenever the Pentium II is using the L2 cache, it has to wait 1/2 clock cycle before it can talk to the cache, reducing the overall speed of the operation. Large bits of data that only fit into L2 cache will be processed at L2 cache speed, not CPU speed. Smaller bits that can fit into L1 cache will be processed at CPU speed. At least that's how I understand it.

That means that the Mendocino with it's fast on die cache will outperform the pentium 2 in some scenarios. In the same scenarios, disabling the slow L3 cache should improve performance on a K6-3.

The question is - what happens when the data that need to be cached is larger then the amount of on-die cache? This scenario is often encountered is synthetic benchmarks. Well, the Mendocino will take a performance hit because it ran out of L2 and needs to read the rest of the data from much slower system memory. The pentium II on the other hand might not - provided the necessary data fits into it's 512kb of cache. Same thing for the K6-3 with L3 cache vs no L3 cache. If the data fits into 256kb L2, it will perform better with L3 disabled (ex - games). If it does not fit, then the extra 512 to 2MB of additional L3 cache will improve performance (ex. benchmarks and other software) . L3 may be slow compared to on die cache, but it's still faster then system memory.

Again, this is how I understand cache.