VOGONS


First post, by colpoz

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I have bought this 486 PCI motherboard
http://www.amoretro.de/2012/09/qdi-mp4-p4u885 … otherboard.html
It was still sealed, NOS condition.

I think this motherboard is little strange compared to others 486 PCI mobo, because it has only an IDE controller integrated, instead of a complete I/O interface.

Anyway, my issue is that I cannot understand why the system normally boots the DOS 6.22, but not any Win9x versions.

What I do is the following:

- Install DOS 6.22
- Enable optical drive using Mscdex
- Start installation of Win95 or Win98

The installation works well without any issue, but at the first reboot the system says "Disco di non di avvio" ("No bootable device" in English). Note the message is in Italian, this means that some access at the data occurs.

If I try to put that HDD in any other PC, it boots normally.

If I put a Promise Fasttrack PCI IDE controller in 486 motherboard, it boots normally too!

I tried to connect at 486 integrated controller the HDD of another PC, with Win95 installed, same issue, no boot.

Essentially, the IDE integrated controller does not boot any Win9x.

I do not want to solve the problem by simply leaving the Promise PCI controller installed, because this cause another issue with EMM386, like you can read here Emm386.exe won't load with an IDE controller card in the computer.

Can someone help me?

RetroPc I: Asus P3V4X - PentiumIII 1000MHz - 256MB Ram - Geforce3 Ti 200 - SLI VoodooII 12MB - Aureal Vortex2 - HDD 80GB - Win98 SE
RetroPc II: Asus P5A - K6-2 333MHz - 64MB Ram - Geforce2 MX - Voodoo 4MB - Soundblaster AWE64 - HDD 13GB - Win95

Reply 1 of 10, by alexanrs

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I'd try the following:

  • Get a Windows 9x bootdisk (matching the system you want to install)
  • Partition it the way you want with FDISK and reboot (With the floppy)
  • Format the partitions
  • Run "FDISK /MBR" to ensure the MBR is correct
  • Run "SYS A: C:" from the floppy
  • Reboot and see if you can boot from the HDD now
  • If it does boot, take the HDD out, put it into another PC and copy the Win9x folder from the CD to "C:\WINDOWS\SETUP"
  • Put it back into the 486, boot into the command prompt, navigate to the setup folder and install Windows... Be sure to set the installation folder manually (Windows will default to "C:\WINDOWS.000" once it sees that the "C:\WINDOWS" folder already exists.

Reply 3 of 10, by colpoz

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alexanrs wrote:
I'd try the following: […]
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I'd try the following:

  • Get a Windows 9x bootdisk (matching the system you want to install)
  • Partition it the way you want with FDISK and reboot (With the floppy)
  • Format the partitions
  • Run "FDISK /MBR" to ensure the MBR is correct
  • Run "SYS A: C:" from the floppy
  • Reboot and see if you can boot from the HDD now
  • If it does boot, take the HDD out, put it into another PC and copy the Win9x folder from the CD to "C:\WINDOWS\SETUP"
  • Put it back into the 486, boot into the command prompt, navigate to the setup folder and install Windows... Be sure to set the installation folder manually (Windows will default to "C:\WINDOWS.000" once it sees that the "C:\WINDOWS" folder already exists.

I cannot make the HDD bootable directly from the 486 because I do not have a floppy controller and the BIOS does not support boot from CD, so I have to firstly install DOS 6.22 from another pc.

Anyway, this procedure is very similar to what I have tried many times...connecting into 486 a DOS bootable HDD and try to install Win95 from CD...it works perfectly until the first reboot (during the installation), and then it appears the message (in Italian) of no boot device.

Trying to do the same but using the Promise IDE controller results in no any problem.

I think the motherboard's BIOS has some kind of incompatibility with Win9x, instead the Promise card, that uses a different BIOS to access to the HDD, works well. Is it possibile?

5u3 wrote:

Do you have both drives (HDD, optical drive) on the same IDE cable? Maybe try the other IDE channel or run the drives on separate cables.

I tried with only the HDD connected to the motherboard, no changes.

RetroPc I: Asus P3V4X - PentiumIII 1000MHz - 256MB Ram - Geforce3 Ti 200 - SLI VoodooII 12MB - Aureal Vortex2 - HDD 80GB - Win98 SE
RetroPc II: Asus P5A - K6-2 333MHz - 64MB Ram - Geforce2 MX - Voodoo 4MB - Soundblaster AWE64 - HDD 13GB - Win95

Reply 4 of 10, by alexanrs

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colpoz wrote:
I cannot make the HDD bootable directly from the 486 because I do not have a floppy controller and the BIOS does not support boo […]
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I cannot make the HDD bootable directly from the 486 because I do not have a floppy controller and the BIOS does not support boot from CD, so I have to firstly install DOS 6.22 from another pc.

Anyway, this procedure is very similar to what I have tried many times...connecting into 486 a DOS bootable HDD and try to install Win95 from CD...it works perfectly until the first reboot (during the installation), and then it appears the message (in Italian) of no boot device.

Trying to do the same but using the Promise IDE controller results in no any problem.

I think the motherboard's BIOS has some kind of incompatibility with Win9x, instead the Promise card, that uses a different BIOS to access to the HDD, works well. Is it possibile?

If the message appears before AUTOEXEC.BAT/CONFIG.SYS are processed, then its not a conflict with Windows per se, but rather with the underlying DOS it uses (unnoficially called DOS 7/7.10). Installing that basic DOS subsystem instead of DOS 6.22 would help isolate the problem, besides ensuring the MBR and boot sectors are correct.

One thing that might be worth considering is that DOS 6.22 uses the old CHS addressing scheme, but Windows 9x (and DOS 7.x) uses LBA addressing when possible. It could be that the BIOS uses a non-standard LBA to CHS translation scheme and your HDD does not support LBA directly. What HDD are you using?

Reply 5 of 10, by meljor

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Maybe try and loosen the timings or other settings in bios. On my 486 pci when i tweak it too far it runs dos and benchmarks just fine but windows 95 complains at startup and greets me with a big blue screen error or simply a black screen.

asus tx97-e, 233mmx, voodoo1, s3 virge ,sb16
asus p5a, k6-3+ @ 550mhz, voodoo2 12mb sli, gf2 gts, awe32
asus p3b-f, p3-700, voodoo3 3500TV agp, awe64
asus tusl2-c, p3-S 1,4ghz, voodoo5 5500, live!
asus a7n8x DL, barton cpu, 6800ultra, Voodoo3 pci, audigy1

Reply 6 of 10, by colpoz

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alexanrs wrote:

If the message appears before AUTOEXEC.BAT/CONFIG.SYS are processed, then its not a conflict with Windows per se, but rather with the underlying DOS it uses (unnoficially called DOS 7/7.10). Installing that basic DOS subsystem instead of DOS 6.22 would help isolate the problem, besides ensuring the MBR and boot sectors are correct.

One thing that might be worth considering is that DOS 6.22 uses the old CHS addressing scheme, but Windows 9x (and DOS 7.x) uses LBA addressing when possible. It could be that the BIOS uses a non-standard LBA to CHS translation scheme and your HDD does not support LBA directly. What HDD are you using?

This is interesting.

Yes, the message appears before AUTOEXEC ecc..

The BIOS is dated december 1994, and I had read that the first implementations of LBA did not work very well.
I'm using a Samsung 4 GB and a Maxtor 8 GB, unfortunally I do not have any HDD smaller than 540MB which not requires LBA.

I BIOS there are two options related to LBA:

- LBA Mode control (Enabled / Disabled. Default=Enabled)
- Large DIsk Access Mode (DOS / Other. Default=DOS)

But changing these parameters did not help me.

If the problem is here, it's very difficult to solve.
If I try with an HDD smaller than 540MB, the BIOS will use CHS instead of LBA or if a BIOS support LBA it will always use LBA?

RetroPc I: Asus P3V4X - PentiumIII 1000MHz - 256MB Ram - Geforce3 Ti 200 - SLI VoodooII 12MB - Aureal Vortex2 - HDD 80GB - Win98 SE
RetroPc II: Asus P5A - K6-2 333MHz - 64MB Ram - Geforce2 MX - Voodoo 4MB - Soundblaster AWE64 - HDD 13GB - Win95

Reply 7 of 10, by alexanrs

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Oh well, I had just typed an extensive answer and then the power went out before I could post... A shorter version from my phone will have to do...
AFAIK the bios will always expose extended int13h functionality and always use some translation scheme for non LBA drives. Try installing a bare DOS 7.x subsystem into the HDD from a Win9x floppy as I described above with the HDD in another computer... If that doesn't boot then it is probably a translation issue.
If it is really a translation issue, then I can see three ways to proceed:
1- Use a larger HDD that supports LBA - the BIOS will not have to translate anything, but then DOS6.22 will be the one that might have issues, so use DOS7.x
2- Get an older BIOS with no LBA support at all if it exists
3- Get an ISA floppy controller and do everything from the 486, but skipping DOS 6.22 and just using a Win9x boot disk and repartition the drive.

Reply 8 of 10, by colpoz

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I tryed to connect the 80GB HDD of my Retropc I.... it works!!! It started to loading Win98SE without any problems.

The BIOS does not properly recognize that HDD (8455 is his maximum) but it seems to does not matter.

So the solutios for running Win9x is to use a larger HDD.... but even this is not a definitive solution, because my goal is to realize a dual boot Win9x and DOS6.22/Win3.11.
I made it in one HDD using two partitions and installing a boot manager, it worked perfectly (when I tried with the Promise IDE card)... but it seems that now it's not still possible if DOS6.22 does not work with LBA.
Maybe I have to go with two HDD, one small for DOS and one large with LBA for Win9x...

RetroPc I: Asus P3V4X - PentiumIII 1000MHz - 256MB Ram - Geforce3 Ti 200 - SLI VoodooII 12MB - Aureal Vortex2 - HDD 80GB - Win98 SE
RetroPc II: Asus P5A - K6-2 333MHz - 64MB Ram - Geforce2 MX - Voodoo 4MB - Soundblaster AWE64 - HDD 13GB - Win95

Reply 9 of 10, by alexanrs

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You might wanna look at some DDOs (disk drive overlays). Those were meant to allow PCs to boot from larger disks on older motherboards, but they might help you since they replace the Int13h services with code of their own.

Reply 10 of 10, by riku

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nice to find this thread 😁 year old but i think its worth to write my problems:
I was having this same problem on this particular motherboard.
I was using it to identify few cache fake chips.

here is alot pics of it: https://pilvi.titanix.net/s/IudeDiIpmZ3ezTx?p … 2F486_UMC8881_2
here is video of the non booting problem: https://youtu.be/jB35FFH2dMk) there hear sound when stop loading disk and hangs with light on.

Booting problem was fixed by doing a dos 6.22 bootdisk, win95 bootdisk is out of question (the internal ide controller was disabled by jumper at this time)