"I think the straight sims today, which I don't want to mention, have no soul. They missed the mark. They miss the forest for the trees. They get all the minor details right, but don't do a good job of letting someone experience the life of a combat pilot. When I play one, I don't feel like I'm in World War I. Instead I feel like I'm sitting at my computer playing a computer simulation." Damon Slye

It's funny that he should say that because that is EXACTLY what was missing from the Aces-series (including RB). Microprose and Lucasfilm created living worlds and dynamic campaigns where your flying actually made a difference. You could shoot down Richthofen and he would stay dead. In RB you could shoot him down 6 times and he wouldn't die until it was historically correct. Also the game world in the Aces games were completely desolate, no other aircraft or units up there except those that were predetermined to show up during your flight. They got the flight model and all the other details right, but they lacked the soul of the other games out there. It's really a shame that they never learned from this mistake until RBII, however bugged it was. Yeah, I know AoD had dynamic campaign, but it wasn't a flight sim.

To be fair at the time Red Baron came out, there was no flight sim that had dynamic campign. Microprose sims had only randomly generated missions (F-19 SF, F-15 SE II, F-117 SF 2.0).

Red Baron had similar scheme, where you would fly randomly generated mission. But the fun part was that you were part of a squadron, which had it's own specific pilots (some of them historically correct). You could transfer to other squadrons which fought at different parts of the front.

After you gained specific rank you could customize your plane (select a model and paint it to your liking). After mission you would read a paper which commented about the latest events on the front.

You could get captured and spend few months in prison camp, or get wounded and spend some time in hospital.

IMHO Red Baron had more immersion than early Microprose titles. You had WINGMANS in your flight. At first you flew as #4 and once you got enough experience you flew as a leader and could issue orders, which were pretty advanced, like splitting your wing making pincer manover possible. First Microprose title you got a wingman was in F-14 Fleet Defender (released in 1994, and was great, but that's another topic).

Later Aces of the Pacific and Aces Over Europe had lost some of that magic but they were still decent games at the time.

Also I never forget that sound of the firing machine guns in Red Baron. Even now it sound good (on old Sound Blaster).

damson wrote:

IMHO Red Baron had more immersion than early Microprose titles. You had WINGMANS in your flight.

Sorry, Lucasfilm's Their Finest Hour beat Dynamix to it. 😉 In fact, wingmen in Lucasfilm's flight sims get better as they score more kills, so it's important to keep your wingmen alive.

damson wrote:

First Microprose title you got a wingman was in F-14 Fleet Defender (released in 1994, and was great, but that's another topic).

Ahem, Gunship 2000, released in 1991. 😉

Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman wrote:

Sorry, Lucasfilm's Their Finest Hour beat Dynamix to it. ;) In fact, wingmen in Lucasfilm's flight sims get better as they score […]
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damson wrote:

IMHO Red Baron had more immersion than early Microprose titles. You had WINGMANS in your flight.

Sorry, Lucasfilm's Their Finest Hour beat Dynamix to it. 😉 In fact, wingmen in Lucasfilm's flight sims get better as they score more kills, so it's important to keep your wingmen alive.

damson wrote:

First Microprose title you got a wingman was in F-14 Fleet Defender (released in 1994, and was great, but that's another topic).

Ahem, Gunship 2000, released in 1991. 😉

I didn't played Their Finest Hour, but I did see that mechanic implemented in their later X-Wing.

Yeah, you're right about GS2000, completetly forgot about it. Played the hell out of it back in the day. Finished all campaigns but never reached retirement. Really good game.

damson wrote:

To be fair at the time Red Baron came out, there was no flight sim that had dynamic campign.

Their Finest Hour (among other things) had a dynamic campaign.

You could transfer to other squadrons which fought at different parts of the front.

Knights of the Sky had this. The lack of wingman was apparent, but the sky was filled with friendly patrols that engaged enemies over the front so you weren't really alone up there.

One of the main gripes I have with RB is the completely dead world around you, but yes, the technical aspect in RB was top notch and none of the WW1 sims at that time managed to beat it. I recently tried to play it the first time since the 90's but couldn't. On the other hand I played through the whole KotS campaign in a week. The randomness of events and skies full of planes is what keeps it interesting and makes it alive, even though the graphics are worse than RB's. One more thing I like about KotS is that when you fly near an enemy airfield it scrambles fighters to hunt you. 😀

sf78 wrote:

damson wrote:

To be fair at the time Red Baron came out, there was no flight sim that had dynamic campign.

Their Finest Hour (among other things) had a dynamic campaign.

Indeed. I also forgot to mention that Their Finest Hour has strategy elements, where you decide which target to strike (or intercept, in case you're playing RAF).

sf78 wrote:

Knights of the Sky had this. The lack of wingman was apparent, but the sky was filled with friendly patrols that engaged enemies over the front so you weren't really alone up there.

One of the main gripes I have with RB is the completely dead world around you, but yes, the technical aspect in RB was top notch and none of the WW1 sims at that time managed to beat it. I recently tried to play it the first time since the 90's but couldn't. On the other hand I played through the whole KotS campaign in a week. The randomness of events and skies full of planes is what keeps it interesting and makes it alive, even though the graphics are worse than RB's. One more thing I like about KotS is that when you fly near an enemy airfield it scrambles fighters to hunt you. 😀

And in KoTS, the AI sometimes take revenge by destroying your hangars if you destroy theirs before. Really, KoTS has such lively battlefield that surpasses F-117A sometimes.

On the other hand, I tried Aces Over Europe, and the theater is so empty that it's almost eerie. If you want a Dynamix game with lively world, then try A-10 Tank Killer. At least it has active ground forces.

Matt Barton (Matt Chat) has done some interviews with former Dynamix employees where they talk some about Red Baron and other Dynamix simulations. Namely, John Cutter and Jeff Tunnell:
https://www.youtube.com/user/blacklily8/search?query=dynamix

I never played Their Finest Hour on PC. I think I tried that on Amiga 500 but I was around 10 at the time so probably I wouldnt comprehend the idea of dynamic campaign 😉 Maybe I should give it a go, but I'm afraid I couldn't cope with the sprite graphics for planes.

clueless1 wrote:

Matt Barton (Matt Chat) has done some interviews with former Dynamix employees where they talk some about Red Baron and other Dynamix simulations. Namely, John Cutter and Jeff Tunnell:
https://www.youtube.com/user/blacklily8 ... ry=dynamix

Thanks for that link clueless1, lot's of cool interviews!

damson wrote:

I never played Their Finest Hour on PC. I think I tried that on Amiga 500 but I was around 10 at the time so probably I wouldnt

Yeah, not the prettiest game out there. I wouldn't touch it on an A500 though, you get around 2 fps with very little air traffic. A1200 runs it really smooth. The sound is much better on the Amiga, too bad all the flight sticks on it suck and only few games support analogue sticks anyway.

sf78 wrote:

damson wrote:

I never played Their Finest Hour on PC. I think I tried that on Amiga 500 but I was around 10 at the time so probably I wouldnt

Yeah, not the prettiest game out there. I wouldn't touch it on an A500 though, you get around 2 fps with very little air traffic. A1200 runs it really smooth. The sound is much better on the Amiga, too bad all the flight sticks on it suck and only few games support analogue sticks anyway.

Yeah the digital joysticks were real bummer on Amiga. You need that precise control for flight sims. I never knew there were even analog joystick for Amiga TBH. I first used analog on PC with Red Baron and it was a joy to fly (no pun intended).

My most favorite Dynamix DOS sim is still A-10; it has quite lively ground forces, and if you help them, they would help you. I wonder why such thing wasn't applied to the Aces series.