Outtheredude wrote:

Hello Everyone! First ever post here! 😁

Welcome aboard 😀

Outtheredude wrote:

As soon as all the remaining parts arrive from eBay, I'll be able to start the following new retro build: […]
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As soon as all the remaining parts arrive from eBay, I'll be able to start the following new retro build:

My first ever PC's case from 2003 (from a Gateway Celeron 400A based refurb) (Beige & Blue)
Sitecom front panel 3-port USB hub & card reader (Beige)
Mercury 400W ATX PSU
AOpen MX3S (00802 48.88A01.014) Socket 370 815e based micro ATX motherboard (with built in BIOS speaker & matching backplate)
Intel Pentium III 800EB Socket 370 256KB 133MHz FSB 1.65v Coppermine Processor (SL3Y2) (cB0 stepping)
StarTech FAN370PRO 65x60x45mm Socket 7/370 CPU Cooler With TX3 Brushless Ball Bearing Fan
Socket 370 Copper CPU Shim
Arctic Silver ArctiClean thermal material remover & surface purifier
Arctic Silver 5 premium thermal compound (3.5g)
2 x 256MB Infineon HYS64V32220GU-7-C2 PC133-222-520 Non-ECC Double Sided 133MHz CL2 SDRAM
128MB DDR2 PNY NVIDIA GeForce 6200 AGP 8x Graphics Card (DVI, VGA, S-Video, Passively Cooled)
Turtle Beach Montego II Aureal Vortex 2 AU8830 (Revision A2) PCI Audio Card
Belkin 4+1-port USB 2.0 PCI card
VIA 3+1-port Firewire PCI card
Lite-On DVD Combo & DVD-ROM IDE PATA internal optical drives (Beige)
2 x Samsung 80GB 7200rpm 3.5" IDE PATA internal HDDs
1.44MB 34-pin 3.5" internal floppy drive (Beige)
Belkin red & yellow rounded 40-pin, 80 wire IDE cables
Belkin green rounded 34-pin floppy cable
MPC2 Female To Female CD-ROM Audio Cable
Foxconn 2-port USB backplate
80cm 3-pin ball bearing case fan
4 Pack Energizer CR2032/BR2032/SB-T15 3V Lithium Coin Cell Batteries
Maplin 50pk motherboard standoffs
Maplin 50pk motherboard screws

Windows 98 Second Edition (with SP3)
DirectX 9.0c (December 2006)
NVIDIA ForceWare (81.98)

It's Phil's fault (from Phil's Computer Lab on YouTube) for getting me interested in building a retro Windows 98 Second Edition system. With this build, I'll be joining the Vogon Collective, having descended from a 4790K/Dual 960 SLI/W10 build and an E8400/750Ti/W8.1/XP build. I'll probably end up back on my Amstrad CPC 464 before you know it!

Anyways, here's the case it's all going to:

WP_20170320_17_54_47_Pro.jpg

...and here's the motherboard that's going to go in there (with some other CPU & cooler on it at the moment, probably just a PIII 1000EB):

WP_20170320_17_55_33_Pro.jpg

I'm not sure about the Mercury PSU. How old is it?

Your case looks pretty neat actually. It looks kinda cheap just like it's supposed to for a rig of that era 😜

I never liked AS5 TIM, it was always *sigh* whenever I removed some HSF and found the previous user had applied AS5, even though the MX? TIM is basically just as good and much more easy to clean.

USB2 card is nice to have I suppose, though personally using USB1 was fine. Do you have any actual firewire devices you're intending to use? Or are you just trying to fill up all the PCI slots? 😜

I liked Coppermine 800. I don't see many people here use a CPU shim (and particularly not for a non-Athlon) and imo it's not needed.

I'd suggest you use an older DirectX, especially since 800MHz won't be able to use that many DX9 games anyway. It will work though, I've used DX9 myself but that was mostly lazyness (I switched to DX8 usually not much later).

You seem to have your components pretty much decked out, the harddrives should be more than enough (also when it comes to how speedy they probably are) and PC133 cl2 is nice 😀
The only thing I'm missing is the model number of your internal FDD 😜

I am a bit worries about your motherboard standoffs though, make sure they are the correct height.

Good luck with your build 😀
And feel free to provide us with any additional pics 😜

The Pentium III 800EB's arrived! Kermit the Frog arm wavy yaaayyy! 😁

Now to pair it with the AOpen MX3S:

After several YouTube videos on how to remove a heatsink, only to finally figure out I needed one hand with a finger to push down and another to lever the clip off with a screwdriver:

Seems like JayzTwoCents (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sS6uSk8hfxE) isn't the only one to try cooling their CPU with milk, or at least something with the consistency of milk.

Anyways, after wiping off with the Arctic cleaning kit and a couple of sheets of kitchen towel:

All clean and Gigahertzy! Too Gigahertzy! Time to say bye bye:

Welcome to your new home:

Q&A with Tetrium:

Tetrium wrote:
I'm not sure about the Mercury PSU. How old is it?

It's only from the last decade, in use right now. I'm sure it'll be fine! (While looking up "Seasonic M12-II Evo 520W" on eBay and wondering when the money's going to arrive in my wallet).

Tetrium wrote:
Your case looks pretty neat actually. It looks kinda cheap just like it's supposed to for a rig of that era 😜

Thanks! As part of a Gateway Celeron 400A refurb for just £199.99 from town, with 15" Compaq monitor, keyboard, mouse, speakers and Intel 536EP modem, with 128MB of RAM and a 10GB 5200rpm WD HDD with single Lite-On DVD-Combo drive, floppy drive, and onboard Rage 128VR graphics and Sound Blaster PCI128 audio, which was my first ever PC from back in 2003, it was.

Tetrium wrote:
I never liked AS5 TIM, it was always *sigh* whenever I removed some HSF and found the previous user had applied AS5, even though the MX? TIM is basically just as good and much more easy to clean.

I like AS5 myself. Even after several years, it's still as goopy and messy as the day I first applied it. Not like some thermal pastes that are easy to clean due to becoming desert dry chewing gum after just a few months. Maybe the MX paste isn't like that, but I'm staying with AS5 'cause my CPU's like being covered in the stuff (and because it's all I've got).

Tetrium wrote:
USB2 card is nice to have I suppose, though personally using USB1 was fine. Do you have any actual firewire devices you're intending to use? Or are you just trying to fill up all the PCI slots? 😜

Yes, and no to firewire devices. I just like seeing the back of my PC with all the retro ports. Serial, Parallel, MIDI, PS/2, USB, Firewire, Network, all there. Shallow, I know. Besides, the USB 2.0 card not only provides better speeds with USB flash drives, it also provides more ports for the front and the back, just in case.

Tetrium wrote:
I liked Coppermine 800. I don't see many people here use a CPU shim (and particularly not for a non-Athlon) and imo it's not needed.

Maybe, but as it's a "flip chip" CPU with the circuit die on the top, and I probably chewed up the 1000EB's circuitry corners off trying to wrestle the old cooler off the AOpen MX3S with my Truckasaurus hands to install the 800EB, I'm taking the belt and braces approach to installing the new cooler when it arrives by adding the shim, just in case.

Tetrium wrote:
I'd suggest you use an older DirectX, especially since 800MHz won't be able to use that many DX9 games anyway. It will work though, I've used DX9 myself but that was mostly lazyness (I switched to DX8 usually not much later).

Maybe an older version of DirectX would be a good idea. I've heard of people having trouble with DirectX 9.0c when running older games. However, they tend to be the ones using much older cards than DirectX 9.0c, like TNT 2s or GeForce 2s. Perhaps my GeForce 6200, being designed with DirectX 9.0c in mind, would fare better? Still, I've downloaded older versions of DirectX, just in case.

Tetrium wrote:
You seem to have your components pretty much decked out, the harddrives should be more than enough (also when it comes to how speedy they probably are) and PC133 cl2 is nice 😀
The only thing I'm missing is the model number of your internal FDD 😜

Thanks! Right now, all I know about the floppy drive is that it's beige and, every so often, the little green light comes on, accompanied with a rather rude farting noise. When all the parts arrive, and I've finished relearning how to install Windows 98se with the Athlon XP 2000+ system that's in there at the moment, I'll be opening up the case to find out what it is.

Tetrium wrote:
I am a bit worries about your motherboard standoffs though, make sure they are the correct height.

Been using them for a while with the Athlon XP 2000+ board. They fit.

Tetrium wrote:
Good luck with your build 😀
And feel free to provide us with any additional pics 😜

Thanks! Done!

I've had enough fooling around with my high-end 98SE rig that is totally not period correct, and trying to run games like GTA4 or Fallout 3 on 98SE...
I want a PIII 98SE rig myself damn it! And your build made me even more hungry for it 😀
It looks totally awesome!
Well...maybe except for the GeForce 6200. I would really like to see a GeForce 4 Ti...but that's just my nitpicking, don't want to make you angry!
Have fun building!

Hello MrMateczko,

Thanks for your interest in my build!

I originally went with the 6200 due to it being passively cooled, being quite powerful for higher resolutions with 1.2 Gigapixels and Gigatexels per second, it's full DirectX 9.0c capability, and having a DVI port for forwards compatibility with digital monitor inputs. However, after reading about the GeForce 6 series dropping palettized texture support on the Vogon Wiki, I've gone with another passively cooled card off eBay, a 128MB Palit GeForce 4 MX 440, also with VGA, S-Video & DVI ports. (Oh, and it's Purple, like the Purple People Eater!). Shouldn't need more than DX7 hardware compatability with the games that would be typical for such a build anyway, while still retaining forwards software compatability with DX8.1-9.0c.

(Not a big fan of retro card fans from back in the day, like those on the 4200 Ti. Too noisy! 😜 )

(P. S. eBay can be your friend in building your dream retro machine too. 😉 )

(P. P. S. It was Phil's fault, again, that got me building an XP machine, based around a modest E8400/750 Ti, with just a couple of X400 SSDs and WD Blacks, for games like Fallout 3 and GTA4 😉 )

The cooler's arrived! Let building commence! 😁

Just look at that ENORMOUS 60mm fan on that fat black StarTech cooler against the teeny tiny stock cooler for the old 1000EB:

When I try the fan on, the cable's all dangly, so it's the wrong way round. Let's heft that ENORMOUS fan round 180 degrees:

Now to prepare the CPU with a dollop of Arctic Silver 5, then add on the (optional extra) shim onto that flip chip PIII 800EB (so that my Truckasaurus hands don't crack the corners on applying the cooler):

Just making sure the shim doesn't escape from it's rightful place in computerised society, with the aid of a small flat head screwdriver, after poking it a lot:

So, with the teeny tiny little old stock cooler for the old PIII 1000EB waving bye bye to the AOpen motherboard, prior to entering the spares retirement home:

Let's play with the memory that's just arrived! 😁

Played.

Now just replacing the old BIOS battery:

'Cause we're about to downgrade. Yaaay! 😁

Stripped...:

...and...:

...in!

Powered by Mercury! The PSU that doesn't explode, even after 10 years (or so) of use (apparently):

Co-starring the Mitsumi Model D359M3D FDD! (Well, Tetrium was curious):

Now to put the cards in! 😀

First, the PNY 6200:

Then, the Belkin USB:

Then, the Turtle Beach Aureal Vortex II:

Finally, the VIA Firewire:

All the cards are now in place! 😁

(Despite the topmost nut having to be removed from the PNY 6200's VGA port in order to squeeze it into the too small expansion slot at the back of the case. 😜)

By the way, the eBay seller for the GeForce 4 MX440 that I was planning to get in place of the 6200 had made a mistake with the listing, resulting in a refund. Now, what to do with it...

(Ooh! Tyan Tomahawk BX with Socket 370 Intel Celeron 466A & 384MB of RAM! Shiny looking things are sooo distracting. 😉 )

Look at all those free range cables!

But, DISASTER!!! Dead DIMM slot! Both memory modules works just fine in the second slot, but computer says no, with lots of long beeps for emphasis, saying "I don't have no memory!" when either one is tried in the first slot. So, I guess, I'll just have to make do with a mere 256MB of PC133 CL2 SDRAM, across just two banks of memory, on a solitary double sided memory module.

Still, it's alive! 😁

The lights are on too! Now to make sure someone's home with Windows 98 Second Edition (along with furniture and stuff). 😉

(Hmmm, maybe that's why an AOpen Socket 370 Intel 815e chipset motherboard, complete with PIII 1000EB & cooler, was going so comparatively cheap for around £22.49 with free P&P on eBay. Either that, or my Truckasaurus hands had struck again. Guess I'll never know.)

Nice! But why not to use the 1ghz pentium?

Nice, only flaw is the Intel 815 base mobo, my choice would have been a VIA Apollo Pro 133A based motherboard since it was faster in games than the intel 815 chipset.

Hello Luisile & Copados33!

To quickly answer both questions regarding speed, I'm not building this system just for speed. If I was, I would have stuck with the Athlon XP 2000+ for my build, or even tried my luck with an Athlon 64 4000+ I've got tucked away somewhere in the spare parts retirement home.

I'm even thinking of underclocking the processor for certain games that regards even 800MHz as being way too fast, (which just happens to be the slowest speed I could run the Athlon XP).

Also, it's a bit of wish fulfilment. I originally wanted to double up on my first PC running on a Celeron 400A that came with Windows 98se. Instead, I went straight on to XP with the Athlon XP. It's only now I've gotten back to my 98se roots with this PIII 800EB build.

copados33 wrote:

Nice, only flaw is the Intel 815 base mobo, my choice would have been a VIA Apollo Pro 133A based motherboard since it was faster in games than the intel 815 chipset.

I think both have benefits and drawbacks. When it comes to retrocomputing and speed, speed isn't really an issue unless something is very wrong or just badly messed up (like drivers 😜).

I like i815, it's stable and easy to work with. Main drawback is in the memory department (max 512MB) and in it not supporting ISA. VIA boards have issues of their own.

Outtheredude wrote:

Hello Luisile & Copados33! […]
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Hello Luisile & Copados33!

To quickly answer both questions regarding speed, I'm not building this system just for speed. If I was, I would have stuck with the Athlon XP 2000+ for my build, or even tried my luck with an Athlon 64 4000+ I've got tucked away somewhere in the spare parts retirement home.

I'm even thinking of underclocking the processor for certain games that regards even 800MHz as being way too fast, (which just happens to be the slowest speed I could run the Athlon XP).

Also, it's a bit of wish fulfilment. I originally wanted to double up on my first PC running on a Celeron 400A that came with Windows 98se. Instead, I went straight on to XP with the Athlon XP. It's only now I've gotten back to my 98se roots with this PIII 800EB build.

One thing I forgot to mention is that I like the sound card you put in there, I have an older model of the Monster Sound, the Diamond Monster M80, second card of the A3d line, but considering you are also going to use this system for old clockspeed sensitive DOS games, I wonder how does that card handles FM sound in DOS, I've never had the chance to test the Vortex 2 8830, I need to put my hands on one of those Diamond MX300 but prices on Ebay are insane for that particular model.

Tetrium wrote:

I think both have benefits and drawbacks. When it comes to retrocomputing and speed, speed isn't really an issue unless something is very wrong or just badly messed up (like drivers 😜).

I like i815, it's stable and easy to work with. Main drawback is in the memory department (max 512MB) and in it not supporting ISA. VIA boards have issues of their own.

Well, heres some interesting findings from our fellow forum member Phil:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HkJbJDCTW4U

Hello again everyone!

copados33 wrote:

One thing I forgot to mention is that I like the sound card you put in there, I have an older model of the Monster Sound, the Diamond Monster M80, second card of the A3d line, but considering you are also going to use this system for old clockspeed sensitive DOS games, I wonder how does that card handles FM sound in DOS, I've never had the chance to test the Vortex 2 8830, I need to put my hands on one of those Diamond MX300 but prices on Ebay are insane for that particular model.

Thanks Copados33! The Turtle Beach Montego II Aureal Vortex 2 PCI sound card I purchased, from an eBay seller based in the Russian Federation, was actually the most expensive part for my new retro build, around £36.07 (when converted into UK pounds), with free P&P.

Phil certainly seems to likes them: Ultimate 1998 Retro Gaming PC Build 😉

At the moment, I'm still installing all the software, as I'm going for a more complete setup similar to what I had originally, rather than just a stripped down retro gaming machine, as I'm curious to see how well it performs as a "working" system today (sans KernelEx).

With the system still being "in progress", I've yet to check out FM sound in DOS. However, one thing I have noticed with the Aureal Vortex 2 with MIDI sound, while trying out the Cave Runner demo in DarkBASIC 1.13e, is how the background music seems more "real" sounding than how I previously experienced it with my original SB PCI128 audio, even through the tinny monitor speakers I'm currently using.

Also, at present, I have just the one DOS game ( 🙁 ), Tempest 2000 ( 😀 ), which back in the day hadn't been notably speed sensative. However, WipeOut 2097 did run way too fast on anything more than my original Celeron 400A with Rage 128 VR graphics. So, to underclock for this game, I'm thinking of swapping out the 256MB 133MHz Infineon module, for a Kingston 256MB 100MHz CL2 one from the spare parts retirement home, to effectively turn the 800EB into an 800E so that I can have more underclocking steppings for games like that.

copados33 wrote:

Nice, only flaw is the Intel 815 base mobo, my choice would have been a VIA Apollo Pro 133A based motherboard since it was faster in games than the intel 815 chipset.

Tetrium wrote:

I think both have benefits and drawbacks. When it comes to retrocomputing and speed, speed isn't really an issue unless something is very wrong or just badly messed up (like drivers 😜).

I like i815, it's stable and easy to work with. Main drawback is in the memory department (max 512MB) and in it not supporting ISA. VIA boards have issues of their own.

copados33 wrote:

Well, heres some interesting findings from our fellow forum member Phil:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HkJbJDCTW4U

For my build, I'm going with a pre-Tualatin 815e chipset to go with my PIII 800EB, as I feel it's the logical successor to Intel's 440BX 100MHz FSB chipset, with it's full support for 133MHz FSB PIIIs, and corresponding AGP speed dividers, while also retaining backwards compatability with earlier processors, like my old Celeron 400A.

Beyond that, I'm Switzerland when it comes to not being interested in becoming embroiled within a slappy fight between chipset supporters. 😜

copados33 wrote:

Tetrium wrote:

copados33 wrote:

Nice, only flaw is the Intel 815 base mobo, my choice would have been a VIA Apollo Pro 133A based motherboard since it was faster in games than the intel 815 chipset.

I think both have benefits and drawbacks. When it comes to retrocomputing and speed, speed isn't really an issue unless something is very wrong or just badly messed up (like drivers 😜).

I like i815, it's stable and easy to work with. Main drawback is in the memory department (max 512MB) and in it not supporting ISA. VIA boards have issues of their own.

Well, heres some interesting findings from our fellow forum member Phil:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HkJbJDCTW4U

I remember that vid. He doesn't seem to mention i815 being a flaw though.
Like I said, both will work and all my i815 boards ended up being very stable platforms. I'm not even sure how many rigs I build around boards with this chipset, but it's probably in my top-3.

i815 is far from a flaw. If you want a buggy chipset, there are very 'good' alternatives to look for 😜

Outtheredude wrote:

Also, at present, I have just the one DOS game ( 🙁 ), Tempest 2000 ( 😀 ), which back in the day hadn't been notably speed sensative. However, WipeOut 2097 did run way too fast on anything more than my original Celeron 400A with Rage 128 VR graphics. So, to underclock for this game, I'm thinking of swapping out the 256MB 133MHz Infineon module, for a Kingston 256MB 100MHz CL2 one from the spare parts retirement home, to effectively turn the 800EB into an 800E so that I can have more underclocking steppings for games like that.

You can't turn an 800EB into an 800E due to the locked multiplier (800EB is 6x133 when 800E is 8x100, begin the multiplier x FSB speed), FSB 100 would downclock the 800EB into a 600E, i didn't try PC100 RAM on FSB133 CPU with an i815 motherboard, but i know on a VIA, it can desync the RAM and FSB speeds and run the memory bus at 100 mhz while running the FSB at 133, your only option to lower perfomance is underclocking, ethier via BIOS or jumper settings, you have to underclock by lowering the FSB, in your case, FSB 100 will run the CPU at 600 mhz when FSB 66 will only run at 400 mhz

Carlos S. M. wrote:

You can't turn an 800EB into an 800E due to the locked multiplier (800EB is 6x133 when 800E is 8x100, begin the multiplier x FSB speed), FSB 100 would downclock the 800EB into a 600E, i didn't try PC100 RAM on FSB133 CPU with an i815 motherboard, but i know on a VIA, it can desync the RAM and FSB speeds and run the memory bus at 100 mhz while running the FSB at 133, your only option to lower perfomance is underclocking, ethier via BIOS or jumper settings, you have to underclock by lowering the FSB, in your case, FSB 100 will run the CPU at 600 mhz when FSB 66 will only run at 400 mhz

Thanks for the info and tips Carlos S. M. 😀