Lawro wrote:

... everyone seems to say 440BX but without much reason.

Part of this is due to its flexibility; many 440BX boards will handle your bare minimum requirements, with the possible exception of #4 (keep reading).

Lawro wrote:

1. Is there much point in bothering with a dual CPU setup? ...

None, as you want to run DOS and Win9x. These OSes do not support multi-CPU setups; your installed second CPU will sit there sulking until you install WinNT/2K/XP or Linux.

Lawro wrote:

4. Coppermine @ 133FSB compatibility

Be warned that 440BX is officially (by Intel) limited to 100MHz FSB. Every board out there that proclaims "133 FSB support" with 440BX is OC'ing the thing, though it seems like many setups are 100% stable despite this. In any case, often you will require BIOS updates and an old P-II or so lying around to enable support for Coppermine and higher FSB speeds.

Thanks for the swift response SW-SSG!

SW-SSG wrote:

Lawro wrote:

... everyone seems to say 440BX but without much reason.

Part of this is due to its flexibility; many 440BX boards will handle your bare minimum requirements, with the possible exception of #4 (keep reading).

That's good to know, thanks. What is it that makes the 440BX more flexible over the 370? I only ask because if I can get away with a 370 and not have to worry about slotkets/slockets I might forego the Slot 1/A nostalgia.

SW-SSG wrote:

Lawro wrote:

1. Is there much point in bothering with a dual CPU setup? ...

None, as you want to run DOS and Win9x. These OSes do not support multi-CPU setups; your installed second CPU will sit there sulking until you install WinNT/2K/XP or Linux.

Right! I should have mentioned that I did eventually run 2K on that machine. It could be nice for nostalgia, although not really necessary as there's nothing specific to 2K I can remember that was special. I wouldn't bother with NT, XP or Linux on the build.

SW-SSG wrote:

Lawro wrote:

4. Coppermine @ 133FSB compatibility

Be warned that 440BX is officially (by Intel) limited to 100MHz FSB. Every board out there that proclaims "133 FSB support" with 440BX is OC'ing the thing, though it seems like many setups are 100% stable despite this. In any case, often you will require BIOS updates and an old P-II or so lying around to enable support for Coppermine and higher FSB speeds.

Ah yes I did read that. I'm interested in the higher clocks and FSBs just for fun, but only if relatively stable / known to be overclocked. For example I've read someone running a Tualatin 1.4 on an Abit BE6.

I'm no 440BX owner, but generally speaking, the 440BX was/is the reference for many software solutions, so it can't be so bad. 😀

The success of the 440BX chipset has caused various software emulation and virtualization packages to use it as part of their virtual system.
VMware and Microsoft Virtual PC present the Intel 440BX chipset virtually to hosted virtual machines, due to its broad compatibility.
Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_440BX

Slot CPUs are the coolest. Socket 370 isn't nearly as cool. If you want stock 133 FSB and ISA with a slot processor, an Apollo Pro 133A board is a good choice. The ASUS P3V4X pops up pretty often. Drop a 933 or 1000/133 Slot 1 PIII in there and you're good to go.

Lawro wrote:

That's good to know, thanks. What is it that makes the 440BX more flexible over the 370? I only ask because if I can get away with a 370 and not have to worry about slotkets/slockets I might forego the Slot 1/A nostalgia.

I'm not completely sure what you mean; there do exist some motherboards that pair 440BX with socket 370, such as the Asus CUBX. This does not imply a higher stability "success rate" with 133MHz FSB CPUs, but they typically will work out-of-box with most Coppermines (of which there are many that stick with a 100MHz FSB, such as the 850MHz P-III).

I love 440FX with PII-333 clockable from 133-333 (FSB66) or alternative the Celeron300. If you really want DOS-Compatibility then I recommend the PII 333 clocked at 233.
You can use a big cooler and use passive cooling in this combination.

Lawro wrote:

[...]

That's good to know, thanks. What is it that makes the 440BX more flexible over the 370? I only ask because if I can get away with a 370 and not have to worry about slotkets/slockets I might forego the Slot 1/A nostalgia.

i440BX is a chipset. So370 is a form factor. You can find both Slot 1 and So370 PPGA and FC-PGA sockets on i448BX-based boards. The choice for a chipset is separate from the choice for a slot/socket.

In general, So370 is easier to work with if you don't want to mod stuff (more choice in heatsinks, heatsinks better attached to motherboard, more choice in CPUs and generally cheaper CPUs), but less tweakable if you do (if you want to run Tualatin CPUs on an FC-PGA socket you need to do a socket mod, which is much easier if done on a slocket adapter card than on the motherboard itself). Note that there are three different kinds of So370:
- PPGA (Celeron Mendocino only, not compatible with later CPUs)
- FC-PGA (Coppermine P3/Celeron, also backwards compatible with PPGA Mendocino CPUs)
- FC-PGA2 (Tualatin P3/Celeron, also backwards compatible with FC-PGA CPUs but NOT PPGA)

Also note that regardless of slot/socket you are also limited by the voltages a motherboard can deliver, so many early Slot 1 boards can't support Coppermine (let alone Tualatin) CPUs, and very few boards can deliver the correct voltage for Tualatin (although you can usually get away with Coppermine voltages). This can even differ between revisions of the same board!

If that all sounds very complicated, it is - but it isn't. If you don't want the headache of sorting it out, choose a board (and revision!) that supports you chosen CPU. You only have to deal with the complexity if you stray outside supported territory.

Right! I should have mentioned that I did eventually run 2K on that machine. It could be nice for nostalgia, although not really necessary as there's nothing specific to 2K I can remember that was special. I wouldn't bother with NT, XP or Linux on the build.

Win2K runs fine with a single CPU too - the way >95% of people used back in the day too. Given that SMP drastically reduces motherboard choice (and tends to bump up price) and it really is pointless for all the other OSs you intend to run, I really would pass on this.

Ah yes I did read that. I'm interested in the higher clocks and FSBs just for fun, but only if relatively stable / known to be overclocked. For example I've read someone running a Tualatin 1.4 on an Abit BE6.

The thing about overclocking: no guarantees, even on board known to work in some cases. That said, if you find a BX board with a 1/4 PCI divider (most later brand name boards) there's a good chance they will run at 133MHz FSB, and at the very least offer the complete range of Coppermine voltages.

Tbh though, it sounds like you're actually thinking about three separate systems here:
- a DOS/Win9x system with maximum compatibility (someone already mentioned PC/PCI SB-Link)
- a dual-CPU P3 Win2k system
- an overclocked Tualatin BX system

You might get away with any two here in one box, but all three is highly unlikely. I'd suggest focusing your requirements a bit and build one coherent system. Or two. Or three 😉

In my opinion 440BX is not the best for late Windows 98 games and hardware. It also lacks a lot of convenience due to no support for faster UDMA modes and USB2.0. But when you throw DOS compatibility into the mix, it tends to come up on top in most people's lists.

Me, personally? I think 440BX is a little overrated. I think the VT82C694T is the best option there is for a PC to do Dos through late Win98 gaming. Compared to 440BX it has:

133MHz FSB suppoort with proper AGP divider
Tualatin Support
2GB max memory
PCI 2.2
4x AGP
ATA100

I would do the build like this:

MSI 694T
Pentium-S 1.4
512MB RAM
GeForce 3 Ti500
Voodoo 2 SLI
Diamond MX300
ISA soundcard for FM and Dos MIDI (ES688/1688/1868, YMF718/7199, ALS100/100+, CS4232/4236 - pick your poison) and MIDI daughterboard

Lawro wrote:

Hi, […]
Show full quote

Hi,

I'm working on an old DOS/3.11/95/98 build, and don't really know what I'm after in terms of motherboard.

So my main questions are:

• 1. Is there much point in bothering with a dual CPU setup? Most boards I can find are the P2B-D and GA-6BXD/DS, but only with non-Coppermine revisions.
  2. Do I need 3xISA or will 2 do? What else would I use in the ISA slots?
  3. Do I need to go as far as a Tualatin 1.4? It sounds like an awesome, if somewhat limiting (due to slocket/slotket availability) possibility

My bare minimum requirements:

• 1. ISA for SB16
  2. SB-Link for Aopen AW744L
  3. AGP for GeForce256
  4. Coppermine @ 133FSB compatibility

I basically want the build to be as flexible as possible without being crazy overkill.

I'm really aiming for something around £200 with motherboard, CPU, RAM (excluding case, sound card, GPU etc.).

Any help/insight would be greatly appreciated.

If you want to play DOS and Win 9x games, then a slot 1 motherboard (with adjustable multiplier and FSB in BIOS) with a Pentium II Klamath or very early Deschutes core (<August ‘98) is required (because these can be underclocked for DOS game compatibility. An alternative (more expensive solution) is a super socket 7 motherboard with an AMD K6-II+ or -III+ CPU (same reason). Some even use a socket 462 solution which also can be underclocked (but finding a good motherboard from the early 00’s is not easy, because most have bad capacitors).

You can not really use a PIII CPU for DOS games that are speed sensitive.

To answer your questions quickly:

1) useless
2) you don’t really need ISA. ISA sound cards can be expensive too. Lots of PCI ones available for little money.
3) can’t be underclocked by adjusting multiplier

SpectriaForce wrote:

If you want to play DOS and Win 9x games, then a slot 1 motherboard (with adjustable multiplier and FSB in BIOS) with a Pentium II Klamath or very early Deschutes core (<August ‘98) is required (because these can be underclocked for DOS game compatibility.

It's not 'required' for 95% of DOS games, downclocking the FSB to 66MHz and disabling L1/L2 caches can slow down most P3s to 486 DX2 level speeds.

SpectriaForce wrote:

[...]
To answer your questions quickly:

2) you don’t really need ISA. ISA sound cards can be expensive too. Lots of PCI ones available for little money.

You don't really need it, but it's a nice to have, particularly given how most PCI solutions require TSR drivers that eat into your free DOS memory. The only ones that don't are cards with the PC/PCI (SB-Link) connector, but then you need a motherboard with that connector, which limits choices and possibly raises prices significantly.

I'd personally aim for a late revision P2B (with 3 ISA slots, and with Coppermine VRMs) or similar, simply because you definitely don't need more than 4 PCI slots - that's enough for 2x V2, a NIC and a SATA or fast PATA controller.

I see enough decent ISA sound cards sell for <= EUR 10 not to worry about the price. Having the ISA slots means you can always go mad with AWE64 Gold and GUS-type stuff later if you want to, not having them doesn't win you anything else.

3) can’t be underclocked

Eh? Drop the FSB from 133MHz to 66MHz (or lower if your board allows it) and you've (more than) halved clock speed. You can also disable caches etc. Of course, it's not as flexible as with a Cyrix C3, but you can go from 'pretty fast for 2000' to 'slow for 1994' if needed with little effort and no messing around in software.

appiah4 wrote:

SpectriaForce wrote:

If you want to play DOS and Win 9x games, then a slot 1 motherboard (with adjustable multiplier and FSB in BIOS) with a Pentium II Klamath or very early Deschutes core (<August ‘98) is required (because these can be underclocked for DOS game compatibility.

It's not 'required' for 95% of DOS games, downclocking the FSB to 66MHz and disabling L1/L2 caches can slow down most P3s to 486 DX2 level speeds.

That's true, but you can't change the multiplier on a PIII because it's locked. For later DOS games (e.g. Tomb Raider, Descent II) I would say a PIII is actually a good choice.

dionb wrote:

You don't really need it, but it's a nice to have, particularly given how most PCI solutions require TSR drivers that eat into y […]
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You don't really need it, but it's a nice to have, particularly given how most PCI solutions require TSR drivers that eat into your free DOS memory. The only ones that don't are cards with the PC/PCI (SB-Link) connector, but then you need a motherboard with that connector, which limits choices and possibly raises prices significantly.

I'd personally aim for a late revision P2B (with 3 ISA slots, and with Coppermine VRMs) or similar, simply because you definitely don't need more than 4 PCI slots - that's enough for 2x V2, a NIC and a SATA or fast PATA controller.

I see enough decent ISA sound cards sell for <= EUR 10 not to worry about the price. Having the ISA slots means you can always go mad with AWE64 Gold and GUS-type stuff later if you want to, not having them doesn't win you anything else.

3) can’t be underclocked

Eh? Drop the FSB from 133MHz to 66MHz (or lower if your board allows it) and you've (more than) halved clock speed. You can also disable caches etc. Of course, it's not as flexible as with a Cyrix C3, but you can go from 'pretty fast for 2000' to 'slow for 1994' if needed with little effort and no messing around in software.

I haven't played DOS games in a while and I have a period correct setup for that purpose, but you can optimize MS-DOS memory usage (I guess you know that, don't know about TS), here's an excellent tutorial: https://www.legroom.net/howto/msdos I always optimize my config.sys and autoexec.bat files using that tutorial, so I have lots of free conventional memory and device drivers load in extended memory.

I'm not sure where you can find decent ISA sound cards for €10.. Do you have any sources? 😊 Perhaps you can find a SB Vibra 16 or an OPTi clone, but that's not really what I would call 'decent'. For ca. € 35 and upwards it starts to get more interesting, but for much less you can find excellent PCI SB Live!, Ensoniq AudioPCI and OPL3 compatibles.

Interesting times where ISA soundcards are more expensive than PCI cards.

It is always a good thing to keep the old hardware and some extra motherboards and videocards as well sound cards.

The videocard was the reason why I kept the 486. VLB (CL5428), while trying all the other 486 motherboards and video cards, and still keeping that VLB5428.
especially that motherboard which had all the slots (PCI, VLB, ISA). Always something was different so I could not migrate to Pentium fully as some programs did not worked, but also some other things neither did not worked on 486. (not thinking about games but mainly about programs). The next thing was about the network cards which had also its woes.

Later I had another as extra reason -- all soundcards cant work in a one machine which I had back then.

SpectriaForce wrote:

I haven't played DOS games in a while and I have a period correct setup for that purpose, but you can optimize MS-DOS memory usage (I guess you know that, don't know about TS), here's an excellent tutorial: https://www.legroom.net/howto/msdos I always optimize my config.sys and autoexec.bat files using that tutorial, so I have lots of free conventional memory and device drivers load in extended memory.

Of course - but some drivers need to (partly) run in conventional memory, even when you try to load them high.

I'm not sure where you can find decent ISA sound cards for €10.. Do you have any sources? 😊 Perhaps you can find a SB Vibra 16 or an OPTi clone, but that's not really what I would call 'decent'. For ca. € 35 and upwards it starts to get more interesting, but for much less you can find excellent PCI SB Live!, Ensoniq AudioPCI and OPL3 compatibles.

In NL, just look on marktplaats.nl - I recently picked up Aztech 2320-based (ISA PnP with real OPL3) and Aztech 2316-based (non-PnP with real OPL3) with wavetable for EUR 7.50. The 2320-based things, which are basically SBPro 2.0, but then less noisy, with nothing more than SET BLASTER needed, are still available (seller has a pile of them). Also picked up Yamaha YMF719-based cards for similar prices. That's all decent stuff, better for DOS FM-synthesis than an SBLive in any event. And yes, there are many more SBLives and AudioPCI/SB64/128PCI cards out there, but for DOS they're less convenient and neither have real OPL3 synthesis.

dionb wrote:

In NL, just look on marktplaats.nl - I recently picked up Aztech 2320-based (ISA PnP with real OPL3) and Aztech 2316-based (non-PnP with real OPL3) with wavetable for EUR 7.50. The 2320-based things, which are basically SBPro 2.0, but then less noisy, with nothing more than SET BLASTER needed, are still available (seller has a pile of them). Also picked up Yamaha YMF719-based cards for similar prices. That's all decent stuff, better for DOS FM-synthesis than an SBLive in any event. And yes, there are many more SBLives and AudioPCI/SB64/128PCI cards out there, but for DOS they're less convenient and neither have real OPL3 synthesis.

This is a little off topic:

Allright, I see, you mean the HP OEM Aztech cards? I know the seller, we do business every once in a while. I think that € 7.50 for such a card is exceptionally good value. I don’t think you can find such offers from other sellers. Most sellers on that local trade site are not interested in shipping abroad. Whenever I see SB16 cards properly advertised, either the asking price is almost at eBay level or the bids are too high for me. That having said, I must admit that I don’t often buy hardware per piece nor search for it, I usually look for lots to reduce risk and price.

More on topic:

I’ve managed to upgrade the BIOS of my Asus P3B-F to the most recent (beta?) version last evening. It has some improvements compared to the old 1004 like more voltage settings for the CPU and correct identification of my 1GHz Coppermine slot 1. What I really like about this i440BX board is that it has a FSB/PCI ratio of 133/33. It also seems to be very stable despite the FSB overclock. The downside of the board is that it looks like ‘single sided’ memory modules with 256Mbit DRAM’s are not supported. Luckily one German eBay seller has lots of very cheap (I really wonder whether he gets subsidized 🤣) double sided modules with 128Mbit chips 😊 (i.e. I’ve bought some..).

My Intel SE440BX-2 system is my "go to" retro computer. I had all the questions you did, and I bought all the stuff trick it out, including a 1000 MHz (100 MHz FSB) P3 as well as a Slotket with a 1300 MHz (100 MHz FSB) Celeron.

It's been running a 550 MHz P3 for a while now.

I just didn't need all that speed, not for the games I was playing (a GF4 Ti4600 helps). I was also a little worried about Intel's warning not to run anything over 700 or 800 MHz.

Some SE440BX boards have a built-in YMF7x4, so you may not need the SB Link if you can find one of those.

I would gladly pay EUR7 for an azrech ISA sound card. You dutch are lucky.