VGA Capture Thread

Discussion about old graphics cards, monitors and video related things.

Re: VGA Capture Thread

Postby ruthan » 2019-3-16 @ 00:57

I've been bourgeois for a couple of days too..
2019-03-15 11.37.21.jpg
Im old goal oriented goatman, i care about facts and freedom, not about egos+prejudices. Hoarding=sickness. If you want respect, gain it by your behavior. I hate stupid SW limits, SW=virtual world, everything should be possible if you have enough HW.
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Re: VGA Capture Thread

Postby Tree Wyrm » 2019-3-19 @ 11:29

That's a dual VGA input VisionRGB-PRO. Good if you have PCI slot and driver support is up to Windows 7. Got one of those too but alas no recent mobo with PCI port to plug it into to test. There might be resolution detection difference between this one and Ex series.
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Re: VGA Capture Thread

Postby ruthan » 2019-3-19 @ 19:24

Tree Wyrm wrote:That's a dual VGA input VisionRGB-PRO. Good if you have PCI slot and driver support is up to Windows 7. Got one of those too but alas no recent mobo with PCI port to plug it into to test. There might be resolution detection difference between this one and Ex series.

This last MB with PCI slots is not old - https://www.gigabyte.com/Motherboard/GA ... -rev-10#ov and i made Win98 and Xp working on it and there are PCIe to PCI bridges for $15 which can work fine for anything except Dos sound..
Im old goal oriented goatman, i care about facts and freedom, not about egos+prejudices. Hoarding=sickness. If you want respect, gain it by your behavior. I hate stupid SW limits, SW=virtual world, everything should be possible if you have enough HW.
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Re: VGA Capture Thread

Postby appiah4 » 2019-3-29 @ 07:32

Just how good is a Matrox Meteor II for VGA capturing?
A500:Rev6|+512K|ACA500+|C1084S
i386:Am386SX25|4M|GD5402|ES688
i486:U5S33|8M|GD5428|YMF719|DB-S2
i586:P133|32M|T64+/MX2|V1|CT3980/32M
i686:K6-2/400|128M|Rage|V2|CT4520/32M
S370:P3-1200|384M|GF4-4200|MX300
S754:A3700+|2G|X1950PRO|SB0350
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Re: VGA Capture Thread

Postby arncht » 2019-4-07 @ 07:46

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Re: VGA Capture Thread

Postby elianda » 2019-4-07 @ 10:55

What review strategy do you use to verify that your captures are correct?
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Re: VGA Capture Thread

Postby arncht » 2019-4-07 @ 12:42

I watch it :D the method is still not perfect, i refine it always a little bit, and i write the bugs.
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Re: VGA Capture Thread

Postby elianda » 2019-4-07 @ 16:04

arncht wrote:I watch it :D the method is still not perfect, i refine it always a little bit, and i write the bugs.


Well of course, but there are often subtle issues especially with demos where it is difficult to realize that it is not correct.
Typical are e.g. parts that run too fast. Some demos like Panic/Future Crew have single parts that run way too fast on newer CPUs. What happens is that they are over within one frame such that the part is just skipped and the demo runs on.
Then you need to find another capture to compare where you actually know that it is correct...
Other issues are that parts show, but are generally too fast on average or effects show but wrong, e.g. that on Crystal Dream 2 the Worldball rotates towards the pole.
Or Second Reality showing yellow background just before the praxis hyperblast scene if you have too much memory in your system.
Or the first water background is missing in Caero if your CPU is too fast - the rest is fine.

I usually get qualified feedback by Harekiet or also sometimes Jim Leonard. I can not know all demos and it is a hell of work to check all demos how they run on various hardware.

I think that it is important to have a certain quality level and accept critical review if it is constructive.
(A non-constructive comment would be if someone just comments "Sound is wrong")
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Re: VGA Capture Thread

Postby arncht » 2019-4-07 @ 17:14

Oh... i remember to the demos, we did many demoshows in the 90s, so i know which demo has timing issue (or any hw related issue). i prepared basically for every year with a period correct config - but it does not mean, i will run them on the “closest” hw. I switch hw, if it is too slow, or has some issue.

Actually -
dx4 100 vlb 94
Socket5 p120 95 (ca 2x faster)
Socket7 p233mmx 97 (ca 4-5x faster)
K6-3 450 99 (ca 8x faster)
P3 1000 2000 (12x faster)

I recommend to you, run on a period correct pc first (mostly they are slow - 10-20fps was normal). The normal gus classic also important, the guspnp plays sometimes differently, with different speed, and the demo is timed to the music. The late demos support directly the interwave.

Another issue can be, the gus is sensitive to the isa bus timing. I dont have too good experience with the last 3.74, it works well in a fast 486, but the it does stupidity in an mmx or faster computer. I dont remember to the same issue with the 3.4.

The hardest part is with the datapath the special modex modes - some demo has 4-5 switches, it is impossible to set it pixel perfect for the whole demo.
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Socket 7 @ 1997.09
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Re: VGA Capture Thread

Postby Rawit » 2019-4-11 @ 09:45

arncht wrote:I recommend to you, run on a period correct pc first (mostly they are slow - 10-20fps was normal). The normal gus classic also important, the guspnp plays sometimes differently, with different speed, and the demo is timed to the music. The late demos support directly the interwave.

Another issue can be, the gus is sensitive to the isa bus timing. I dont have too good experience with the last 3.74, it works well in a fast 486, but the it does stupidity in an mmx or faster computer. I dont remember to the same issue with the 3.4.


Offtopic but:

Does the Interwave based GUS have the same ISA bus timing issues? My GF1 based GUS goes off timing in FastTracker 2 and such. Do you have a list of demos that run differently on the Interwave?
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Re: VGA Capture Thread

Postby elianda » 2019-4-11 @ 10:25

OT GUS:

I have quite a few GUS, GUS PnP and an ArGUS running in my oldschool gaming machines.
From my experience the GUS Classic starts to crackle in playback when the ISA bus clock goes over 10 MHz while DMA sample upload itself seems to still work reliably.
As for the Interwave based GUS I have not found any software where it does not work as GUS Classic. One important thing is to always use ULTRINIT after IWINIT if you want to run GUS Classic software. Some software expects the GUS classic software environment, so in my setup I always pair the GUS PnP install with a GUS classic install. There is also more to consider, but its already enough OT.
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Re: VGA Capture Thread

Postby arncht » 2019-4-11 @ 11:32

Rawit wrote:
arncht wrote:I recommend to you, run on a period correct pc first (mostly they are slow - 10-20fps was normal). The normal gus classic also important, the guspnp plays sometimes differently, with different speed, and the demo is timed to the music. The late demos support directly the interwave.

Another issue can be, the gus is sensitive to the isa bus timing. I dont have too good experience with the last 3.74, it works well in a fast 486, but the it does stupidity in an mmx or faster computer. I dont remember to the same issue with the 3.4.


Offtopic but:

Does the Interwave based GUS have the same ISA bus timing issues? My GF1 based GUS goes off timing in FastTracker 2 and such. Do you have a list of demos that run differently on the Interwave?


the later isa cards (pnp) look much more flexible. i dont have a list, but mostly they are ok.

the isa timing is not just depends on the isa clock (i always try to keep around the original clock). simply you need the right combination of the card-mainboard. there is a couple of examples:
* my 3.74s are very sensitive, in a p3 simply shows the memory buggy, in mmx better, the 486 perfect.
* i did not have any issue in the past with my original 3.4 version - i used it until the kt133a (athlon), and we did many demoshows. actually i could not do that with the 3.74, in the past i used abit/epox boards around 2000 (i have an abit bx6 v2, i will compare with the p3b-f)
* the sb16 works quite well in the p3, but there is a big bunch of games without correct detection, or buggy sound, etc. if you change the 8bit timing from 1t to 8t, 80% of the buggy games run again.
* sbpro2 worked me well until the socket 5, in the p3 doesn't (even not with 8t)
* pas also looks more sensitive in faster machines

practically i don't suggest to mix hardware, with big age differences.

here is a list:
https://www.vogonswiki.com/index.php/Li ... tive_games

eg
Indiana Jones and the Fate of Atlantis (1993) garbled Adlib music 486 16 Reduce clock speed or disable cache with Setmul
Sierra games no sound card detection P200

they work well with sb16 in a p1000, but with 8t timing. it is a timing issue, not depends (just) on the cpu.
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Socket 7 @ 1997.09
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Socket A @ 2003.06 - Athlon XP 3200+, Radeon 9800 Pro, Sound Blaster Audigy 2
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Re: VGA Capture Thread

Postby Rawit » 2019-4-11 @ 11:49

Thanks for the info guys. I asked here because this one of the more recent mentions of Interwave / GF1 compatibility and ISA speeds. Won't OT the thread any further.
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Re: VGA Capture Thread

Postby arncht » 2019-4-30 @ 14:34

Last edited by arncht on 2019-5-01 @ 06:39, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: VGA Capture Thread

Postby elianda » 2019-4-30 @ 15:01

Do you do the frame rate conversion from 70 Hz to 60 Hz in you video processing before uploading to YT or is your source material 70 Hz and you let Youtube do it?
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Re: VGA Capture Thread

Postby arncht » 2019-4-30 @ 15:42

elianda wrote:Do you do the frame rate conversion from 70 Hz to 60 Hz in you video processing before uploading to YT or is your source material 70 Hz and you let Youtube do it?


i do it, at capturing the output is 1:1 and fixed to 60fps.
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Re: VGA Capture Thread

Postby elianda » 2019-4-30 @ 22:27

You mean that you force all source modes to have 60 Hz? This might lead to timing issues in demos that rely on vsync.
Or do you have the source at 70 Hz and capture asynchroneously at 60 fps and skip every 7th frame on average?
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Re: VGA Capture Thread

Postby arncht » 2019-5-01 @ 06:21

No, do nothing on the retro pc side - but just the smaller part is 70hz, mostly they are vesa, 320x240, or a special modex, with various frequencies. The output is 2160p60, so somewhere you have to do the conversation, i dont really think, matters, where:
* on the pc side
* at the capturing tool (i did it actually)
* at obs (i did previously)
* at the video encoding

Eg the m12 intro did a mode switch at every new scene, it is a good playground to do a good capturing tool :)

3.png

2.png

2a.png
My little retro computer world

Socket 3 VLB @ 1994.10
Socket 5 @ 1995.05
Socket 7 @ 1997.09
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Socket A @ 2003.06 - Athlon XP 3200+, Radeon 9800 Pro, Sound Blaster Audigy 2
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Re: VGA Capture Thread

Postby arncht » 2019-5-01 @ 06:45

My little retro computer world

Socket 3 VLB @ 1994.10
Socket 5 @ 1995.05
Socket 7 @ 1997.09
Slot 1 @ 2000.05
Socket A @ 2003.06 - Athlon XP 3200+, Radeon 9800 Pro, Sound Blaster Audigy 2
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