VOGONS


First post, by nztdm

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So, I've collected a bunch of old parts, and am in the process of finishing up a DOS+Win98 gaming PC build.

Specs:
A-bit BE6-II rev1.0 (BIOS 70)
NVIDIA FX-5700LE
AWE64 Value
PCI Fast Ethernet
PCI USB2.0 (ALi)
MSI MS-6905 Master 2.3 Slotket

With a P-III Coppermine (667/133/256), all is well.
With a P-III-S Tualatin (1400/133/512), all is well only if In-order Queue Depth is set to 1.

The only other IOQD setting is 8, and that causes minor instability. I have found a way to reproduce the freezes. The "vertex shader" benchmark in 3DMark 2001 SE will always freeze within seconds at IOQD=8, but will run forever with no issues at IOQD=1.

Things that make no difference:
Changing down to 100MHz FSB
3-3-3 vs 2-2-2
Cache latency maximum
3x128MB Infineon PC133 CL3 vs 2x256MB Kingmax PC150

The modification I performed for Tualatin support is removing AN3, AJ3, AK4, and connecting AK4 to AK26 with a 1K resistor.
Perhaps one of the other two places to connect AK4 will make a difference: http://www.oocities.org/_lunchbox/tualeron_slot1_bx_mod.html

Update: seems to be stable with 1x512MB Kingston PC133 CL3 (only sees 256MB, as usual for BX). I have two more of these sticks I could try (even if 3 work, I think 2 is plenty).
Would still be nice to get to the bottom of this. Maybe I just have some bad RAM, maybe the system is more stable with a single RAM module, maybe my slots are crusty, and need some contact cleaner.
Two PCI slots were damaged when I got the board. Took me ages to find (like really, I re-capped the whole board [these boards are notorious], and then noticed bent pins inside two PCI slots, shorting out). These pins get bent when someone pulls out a universal PCI card on an angle; the edges of the card catch on the pins.

Reply 1 of 11, by CuPid

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Most likely the problem is related to the memory.
With IOQD set to 1 the bus pipeline does not queue anymore and consequently the memory is sent much less commands per second (the memory bandwidth is generally measured at 1/3 or 1/4 of its nominal value), and therefore the memory is less stressed.

Nethertheless, I wonder why it worked with the Coppermine, maybe because the Tualatin's advanced prefetch features ?...

I need a vacation.

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Reply 2 of 11, by nztdm

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CuPid wrote:

Most likely the problem is related to the memory.
With IOQD set to 1 the bus pipeline does not queue anymore and consequently the memory is sent much less commands per second (the memory bandwidth is generally measured at 1/3 or 1/4 of its nominal value), and therefore the memory is less stressed.

Nethertheless, I wonder why it worked with the Coppermine, maybe because the Tualatin's advanced prefetch features ?...

I just tested further. It seems it's stable with all of my RAM modules, if I only use a single module. 256MB it is!
3Dmark 2001 SE score: 7274

Some other quirks with this system:
- Windows 98 SE shutdown big. It finishes the shutdown, but doesn't switch the power supply off; just sits at "windows is shutting down"; need to hold power button. "Disable fast shutdown" checkbox is missing from msconfig. This is Win98SE > drivers > IE6.0 > DX9c > latest Unofficial Win98SE SP.
- At the end of POST it always says "Unknown flash type" before loading the OS. I am guessing this is relating to a built-in BIOS flasher tool, and the Winbond flash chip currently installed isn't a supported type.
- The Highpoint IDE controller option isn't in the BIOS, and it has never appeared in Windows. The BIOS must be missing the Option ROM; maybe it's the BH6 BIOS.

Reply 3 of 11, by Cyrix200+

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Well you are running at a 133MHz FSB right? The BX chipset officially supports up to 100MHz FSB, so the chipset is running out of spec.

Also, the BX chipset only has a 2/3 AGP divider (and 1/1), making the AGP run at around 90MHz. Different video cards react differently to this. You could try running a different or a PCI video card to test (there is a 1/4 PCI divider).

EDIT: ah you solved it already. I don't think the other issues could be caused by this.

1982 to 2001

Reply 4 of 11, by nztdm

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Cyrix200+ wrote:

Well you are running at a 133MHz FSB right? The BX chipset officially supports up to 100MHz FSB, so the chipset is running out of spec.

Also, the BX chipset only has a 2/3 AGP divider (and 1/1), making the AGP run at around 90MHz. Different video cards react differently to this. You could try running a different or a PCI video card to test (there is a 1/4 PCI divider).

As stated in the OP, 100MHz FSB makes no difference. With 66MHz AGP and 33MHz PCI.

The Tualatin CPU is also running out of spec, being connected to a BX chipset.

Reply 5 of 11, by Cyrix200+

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nztdm wrote:
Cyrix200+ wrote:

Well you are running at a 133MHz FSB right? The BX chipset officially supports up to 100MHz FSB, so the chipset is running out of spec.

Also, the BX chipset only has a 2/3 AGP divider (and 1/1), making the AGP run at around 90MHz. Different video cards react differently to this. You could try running a different or a PCI video card to test (there is a 1/4 PCI divider).

As stated in the OP, 100MHz FSB makes no difference. With 66MHz AGP and 33MHz PCI.

The Tualatin CPU is also running out of spec, being connected to a BX chipset.

Yeah, I somehow missed half the information in your posts. Guess I need more coffee 😀

1982 to 2001

Reply 6 of 11, by Doornkaat

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nztdm wrote:

- At the end of POST it always says "Unknown flash type" before loading the OS. I am guessing this is relating to a built-in BIOS flasher tool, and the Winbond flash chip currently installed isn't a supported type.
- The Highpoint IDE controller option isn't in the BIOS, and it has never appeared in Windows. The BIOS must be missing the Option ROM; maybe it's the BH6 BIOS.

I'm almost certain there's either a problem with the EEPROM (either wrong type or defective) or with the BIOS on it (either it's corrupted or a wrong version).
Similarly to what you already suspected "Unknown flash type" usually indicates DMI information can't be written or verified, possibly causing problems (i.e. power management). This again can be caused by an incompatible or defective EEPROM or an incorrect but semi-compatible BIOS.
My suggestion would be to check wether the EEPROM is (identical to) the original part and reflash it with the latest BIOS using the flash tool Abit recommends.
Good luck! 😀

Reply 7 of 11, by nztdm

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Doornkaat wrote:
I'm almost certain there's either a problem with the EEPROM (either wrong type or defective) or with the BIOS on it (either it's […]
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nztdm wrote:

- At the end of POST it always says "Unknown flash type" before loading the OS. I am guessing this is relating to a built-in BIOS flasher tool, and the Winbond flash chip currently installed isn't a supported type.
- The Highpoint IDE controller option isn't in the BIOS, and it has never appeared in Windows. The BIOS must be missing the Option ROM; maybe it's the BH6 BIOS.

I'm almost certain there's either a problem with the EEPROM (either wrong type or defective) or with the BIOS on it (either it's corrupted or a wrong version).
Similarly to what you already suspected "Unknown flash type" usually indicates DMI information can't be written or verified, possibly causing problems (i.e. power management). This again can be caused by an incompatible or defective EEPROM or an incorrect but semi-compatible BIOS.
My suggestion would be to check wether the EEPROM is (identical to) the original part and reflash it with the latest BIOS using the flash tool Abit recommends.
Good luck! 😀

The shutdown issue didn't happen on the previous install (but I had other issues because I installed Unofficial SP3 components in wrong order).
Yah defective Flash chip is likely the case. Today when I turned it on I saw the boot-block tool appear, saying bad ROM checksum (yes, ROM, not the battery-backed SRAM), then checking the floppy drive for a disk with the correct ROM. Next cold boot worked fine, but with SRAM cleared.

I can dump and flash it with a programmer.
Not sure where I'd find out what the original supported flash chip models are.
My board is supposedly Rev1.0 (because it has the older Highpoint chip). However on the back of the PCB it says v0.6 if I remember correctly. I have a tough time finding what BIOS version is actually the latest for my board. Currently I think it's version "70", which is what is currently on the chip when I last looked.

Reply 8 of 11, by Doornkaat

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nztdm wrote:

Not sure where I'd find out what the original supported flash chip models are.

You could ask people here who have a board with the stock EEPROM to peel off their sticker and tell you the model. 😀

Reply 9 of 11, by maxtherabbit

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This may not be related, but on my Tyan Tiger 100 dual slot 1 BX board, I was never able to get 1GHz copper mines stable with IOQD of 4. All slower CPUs would work with IOQD 4 just fine. Turned out to be the 1GHz cumines were simply drawing too much current and exceeding the VRMs' ratings by like 25%

Reply 10 of 11, by _UV_

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According to datasheets for BX and VIA chipsets they only have depth of 4 in hardware, and only 2 states on with full length or disabled. So any other settings is either dirty hacks or marketing BS. IOQD=1 equals to disabled.

Reply 11 of 11, by maxtherabbit

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_UV_ wrote:

According to datasheets for BX and VIA chipsets they only have depth of 4 in hardware, and only 2 states on with full length or disabled. So any other settings is either dirty hacks or marketing BS. IOQD=1 equals to disabled.

right, I can't speak for the other posters, but in my case the comparison was between a setting of 4 and 1(which I realise means disabled)