gdjacobs wrote on 2020-01-30, 05:24:

Peter Swinkels wrote on 2020-01-29, 12:00:

I looked it up btw. ISA has been obsolete for 27 years now. Why was this whole -5 volt/ISA thing relevant if my only question was a confirmation of my power supply's rating?

It's obsolescent. ISA devices still work, barring malfunction. You can still buy new ISA gear in the PC/104 and industrial world. It's simple and, in a lot of situations, sufficient for the task.

Yeah, from what I gather on the internet you'd surprised about some of the truly ancient hardware and software still in use. I have considered buying a retro PC but am not sure if that is what I truly want. I am happy with my current pc until it fails and using DOSBox if I feel like retro gaming or coding.

Peter Swinkels wrote on 2020-01-31, 12:39:

How was my initial question not specific? I was under the impression that a simple confirmation about the info on a PSU's specs would not start a lengthy thread on a forum where people are obviously into computing hardware retro or not.

It wasn't specific because in your initial post, you had not yet mentioned it was a relatively recent PC. That is why you got unsolicited information about obsolete specifications. It trips people up all the time not having -5V rails, or trying to use 12V-heavy PSUs on systems from an era when the CPUs took a lot of current, but were still using the +5V rail to regulate down to the CPU voltage. It was pre-emptive warning to save you the trouble of finding out about these pitfalls the hard way.

You then tried to school all the people trying to help you, by informing them that ISA is old, and who cares if the PSU doesn't support some dumb old ISA card? As the new guy coming in to a retro enthusiast forum.... So the thread got lengthy because we had to explain to you why ISA support is considered relevant here. You stepped in to the equivalent of a classic car forum spouting off about irrelevant information when somebody tried to save you the trouble of a malfunctioning carburetor.

Peter Swinkels wrote on 2020-01-31, 12:39:

Just to avoid any confusion, perhaps I should have gone to another forum altogether.

You've got my vote.

SirNickity wrote on 2020-01-31, 19:59:

It wasn't specific because in your initial post, you had not yet mentioned it was a relatively recent PC. That is why you got u […]
Show full quote

Peter Swinkels wrote on 2020-01-31, 12:39:

How was my initial question not specific? I was under the impression that a simple confirmation about the info on a PSU's specs would not start a lengthy thread on a forum where people are obviously into computing hardware retro or not.

It wasn't specific because in your initial post, you had not yet mentioned it was a relatively recent PC. That is why you got unsolicited information about obsolete specifications. It trips people up all the time not having -5V rails, or trying to use 12V-heavy PSUs on systems from an era when the CPUs took a lot of current, but were still using the +5V rail to regulate down to the CPU voltage. It was pre-emptive warning to save you the trouble of finding out about these pitfalls the hard way.

You then tried to school all the people trying to help you, by informing them that ISA is old, and who cares if the PSU doesn't support some dumb old ISA card? As the new guy coming in to a retro enthusiast forum.... So the thread got lengthy because we had to explain to you why ISA support is considered relevant here. You stepped in to the equivalent of a classic car forum spouting off about irrelevant information when somebody tried to save you the trouble of a malfunctioning carburetor.

Peter Swinkels wrote on 2020-01-31, 12:39:

Just to avoid any confusion, perhaps I should have gone to another forum altogether.

You've got my vote.

Schooling you? By stating a few facts about ISA? Guess you got unsolicited info from me? ISA dumb? Never said that. I don’t look down on you or old the hardware you love so much.

I don't really get what your issue is with this topic being brought up?
your question was answered, was it not?
threads are here for everyone to look at, so the more information there is the better imho, it seems pretty odd to be condescending (that's at least how it felt to me) towards people providing more information or discussing something with further depth, even if it wasn't specifically asked for.

You felt I was condescending? Why? I like this forum and trust me, if I did feel the need to be a jerk here for some reason you won't feel it. It will be obvious from the tone.

Yes, my question was answered and thank you for an interesting debate about ISA.

Please believe me when I say I like and the respect the people here and share their interest in old hardware.

For me there's no reason here to continue posting other than to react to any posts that may follow. Perhaps I will react in a slightly confusing manner, but it isn't meant to condescending. I seem to have a little trouble dealing with unexpected info and being specific.

that's not what I meant to say, sorry, I don't feel like you were being a jerk, not at all, but your reaction was a bit "odd", I'm just not finding the correct word. ^^

imi wrote on 2020-01-31, 22:34:

that's not what I meant to say, sorry, I don't feel like you were being a jerk, not at all, but your reaction was a bit "odd", I'm just not finding the correct word. ^^

Okay. 😉

Peter Swinkels wrote on 2020-01-31, 12:44:

Yeah, from what I gather on the internet you'd surprised about some of the truly ancient hardware and software still in use.

Except this ancient hardware can still be purchased new from the manufacturer.

Peter Swinkels wrote on 2020-01-31, 12:44:

I have considered buying a retro PC but am not sure if that is what I truly want. I am happy with my current pc until it fails and using DOSBox if I feel like retro gaming or coding.

That's entirely a valid approach. You can also look into PCem which is a more complete emulation platform instead of a thin layer like DOSBox -- it has some additional tricks up it's sleeve in terms of hardware it can masquerade as.

Emulation is pretty great, but if you're interested in looking at retro video and audio, you'll find that generally only mainstream hardware is supported.

gdjacobs wrote on 2020-02-01, 01:58:

Except this ancient hardware can still be purchased new from the manufacturer. […]
Show full quote

Peter Swinkels wrote on 2020-01-31, 12:44:

Yeah, from what I gather on the internet you'd surprised about some of the truly ancient hardware and software still in use.

Except this ancient hardware can still be purchased new from the manufacturer.

Peter Swinkels wrote on 2020-01-31, 12:44:

I have considered buying a retro PC but am not sure if that is what I truly want. I am happy with my current pc until it fails and using DOSBox if I feel like retro gaming or coding.

That's entirely a valid approach. You can also look into PCem which is a more complete emulation platform instead of a thin layer like DOSBox -- it has some additional tricks up it's sleeve in terms of hardware it can masquerade as.

Emulation is pretty great, but if you're interested in looking at retro video and audio, you'll find that generally only mainstream hardware is supported.

Do you have examples of this “ancient hardware” so I know what you mean?

How is DOSBox’s video lacking? I know true Roland/MT-32 emulation is apparently lacking. I remember gaming on a pc with a Sound Blaster. Roland or MT-32 (same or separate?) drivers worked on it. 🤭 Sound Blaster sounded better, but apparently expensive separate hardware was required to truly make it work. I remember seeing some external box in video’s concerning retro gaming and using a Roland/MT-32. Oh well, Sound Blaster was definitely an improvement over a pc-speaker! 🤣 I still remember being amazed at color graphics on a pc btw. 😄

I tried different emulators, DOSBox seems to support the most games and be the most user friendly. Do you use those emulators? Why is the deeper (?) hardware support useful to you?

Peter Swinkels wrote on 2020-02-01, 08:03:

Do you have examples of this “ancient hardware” so I know what you mean?

https://adek.com/products/atx-motherboards-isa

Many more examples.

Peter Swinkels wrote on 2020-02-01, 08:03:

How is DOSBox’s video lacking? I know true Roland/MT-32 emulation is apparently lacking. I remember gaming on a pc with a Sound Blaster. Roland or MT-32 (same or separate?) drivers worked on it. 🤭 Sound Blaster sounded better, but apparently expensive separate hardware was required to truly make it work. I remember seeing some external box in video’s concerning retro gaming and using a Roland/MT-32. Oh well, Sound Blaster was definitely an improvement over a pc-speaker! 🤣 I still remember being amazed at color graphics on a pc btw. 😄

I tried different emulators, DOSBox seems to support the most games and be the most user friendly. Do you use those emulators? Why is the deeper (?) hardware support useful to you?

DOSBox supports a few SVGA hardware devices, EGA, CGA, Tandy, MGA, and (with some patches) Glide. More exotic hardware like TIGA cards and most of the proprietary accelerated 3d technologies for DOS are not supported by DOSBox. PCem doesn't support TIGA, but it does support S3 Virge cards. I'm not sure if it's compatible enough for S3D to work, though. MIDI isn't so much a problem as DOSBox can interface with external modules. The major sound standards it doesn't support are PAS, PAS16, Game Blaster, the Creative EMU engine, and WSS. PCem supports all these except Media Vision technology.

I'm always interested in exploring older technology. although mostly audio stuff. I like trying out different sound cards even if it's sometimes only to test how they sound different from each other.

gdjacobs wrote on 2020-02-01, 18:55:

https://adek.com/products/atx-motherboards-isa […]
Show full quote

Peter Swinkels wrote on 2020-02-01, 08:03:

Do you have examples of this “ancient hardware” so I know what you mean?

https://adek.com/products/atx-motherboards-isa

Many more examples.

Peter Swinkels wrote on 2020-02-01, 08:03:

How is DOSBox’s video lacking? I know true Roland/MT-32 emulation is apparently lacking. I remember gaming on a pc with a Sound Blaster. Roland or MT-32 (same or separate?) drivers worked on it. 🤭 Sound Blaster sounded better, but apparently expensive separate hardware was required to truly make it work. I remember seeing some external box in video’s concerning retro gaming and using a Roland/MT-32. Oh well, Sound Blaster was definitely an improvement over a pc-speaker! 🤣 I still remember being amazed at color graphics on a pc btw. 😄

I tried different emulators, DOSBox seems to support the most games and be the most user friendly. Do you use those emulators? Why is the deeper (?) hardware support useful to you?

DOSBox supports a few SVGA hardware devices, EGA, CGA, Tandy, MGA, and (with some patches) Glide. More exotic hardware like TIGA cards and most of the proprietary accelerated 3d technologies for DOS are not supported by DOSBox. PCem doesn't support TIGA, but it does support S3 Virge cards. I'm not sure if it's compatible enough for S3D to work, though. MIDI isn't so much a problem as DOSBox can interface with external modules. The major sound standards it doesn't support are PAS, PAS16, Game Blaster, the Creative EMU engine, and WSS. PCem supports all these except Media Vision technology.

I'm always interested in exploring older technology. although mostly audio stuff. I like trying out different sound cards even if it's sometimes only to test how they sound different from each other.

Ah, I see. Well DOSBox has improved a lot. Who knows what improvements will be made.