Mad_Wolf wrote on 2020-04-20, 12:22:

Hello all, I have 4 retro computers all with ide interfaces. I live in Turkey and I'm having hard times replacing my old ide hdd […]
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Hello all,
I have 4 retro computers all with ide interfaces. I live in Turkey and I'm having hard times replacing my old ide hdds so I need someting else for using instead of hdds.
I read some articles that suggest compact flash cards but here in a topic its not suggested.
So what are the alternatives that I can use?

Thanks all

Compact Flash cards are your best option, because they have ATA interface, so any converter will be a passive converter. Also, they are fast. On the negative side, Windows may kill them a bit fast because of the page file, but that can be configured to avoid it. Another option would be using a converter from ATA to microSD cards, but that would be an active converter, the microSD cards are slower than the CF usually and the converters (in my experience) are crap. I would not recommend that route to anyone. A third option would be using an ATA to SATA converter and using a new SATA hard drive, but that will only work with most recent computers, a 386 / 486 is not likely to work correctly with those converters.

aha2940 wrote on 2020-04-20, 15:44:

Mad_Wolf wrote on 2020-04-20, 12:22:

Hello all, I have 4 retro computers all with ide interfaces. I live in Turkey and I'm having hard times replacing my old ide hdd […]
Show full quote

Hello all,
I have 4 retro computers all with ide interfaces. I live in Turkey and I'm having hard times replacing my old ide hdds so I need someting else for using instead of hdds.
I read some articles that suggest compact flash cards but here in a topic its not suggested.
So what are the alternatives that I can use?

Thanks all

Compact Flash cards are your best option, because they have ATA interface, so any converter will be a passive converter. Also, they are fast. On the negative side, Windows may kill them a bit fast because of the page file, but that can be configured to avoid it. Another option would be using a converter from ATA to microSD cards, but that would be an active converter, the microSD cards are slower than the CF usually and the converters (in my experience) are crap. I would not recommend that route to anyone. A third option would be using an ATA to SATA converter and using a new SATA hard drive, but that will only work with most recent computers, a 386 / 486 is not likely to work correctly with those converters.

1 P100
1 P2 - 450
1 P3- 800
1 P3 - 1000

Btw in some forums says that the compact flash are slower than microsd (class 10) and the compact flash cards cannot be fixed drive anymore. Is that right?

Mad_Wolf wrote on 2020-04-20, 16:04:

1 P100 1 P2 - 450 1 P3- 800 1 P3 - 1000 […]
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aha2940 wrote on 2020-04-20, 15:44:

Mad_Wolf wrote on 2020-04-20, 12:22:

Hello all, I have 4 retro computers all with ide interfaces. I live in Turkey and I'm having hard times replacing my old ide hdd […]
Show full quote

Hello all,
I have 4 retro computers all with ide interfaces. I live in Turkey and I'm having hard times replacing my old ide hdds so I need someting else for using instead of hdds.
I read some articles that suggest compact flash cards but here in a topic its not suggested.
So what are the alternatives that I can use?

Thanks all

Compact Flash cards are your best option, because they have ATA interface, so any converter will be a passive converter. Also, they are fast. On the negative side, Windows may kill them a bit fast because of the page file, but that can be configured to avoid it. Another option would be using a converter from ATA to microSD cards, but that would be an active converter, the microSD cards are slower than the CF usually and the converters (in my experience) are crap. I would not recommend that route to anyone. A third option would be using an ATA to SATA converter and using a new SATA hard drive, but that will only work with most recent computers, a 386 / 486 is not likely to work correctly with those converters.

1 P100
1 P2 - 450
1 P3- 800
1 P3 - 1000

Btw in some forums says that the compact flash are slower than microsd (class 10) and the compact flash cards cannot be fixed drive anymore. Is that right?

AFAIK, industrial grade CF cards are identified as a fixed hard drive. And it's correct: a good microSD card may be faster than a CF card, but the microsd has to use a crappy chinese converter that will slow it down, whereas the CF connects without any active converters to an IDE port.

aha2940 wrote on 2020-04-20, 18:57:

Mad_Wolf wrote on 2020-04-20, 16:04:

1 P100 1 P2 - 450 1 P3- 800 1 P3 - 1000 […]
Show full quote

aha2940 wrote on 2020-04-20, 15:44:

Compact Flash cards are your best option, because they have ATA interface, so any converter will be a passive converter. Also, they are fast. On the negative side, Windows may kill them a bit fast because of the page file, but that can be configured to avoid it. Another option would be using a converter from ATA to microSD cards, but that would be an active converter, the microSD cards are slower than the CF usually and the converters (in my experience) are crap. I would not recommend that route to anyone. A third option would be using an ATA to SATA converter and using a new SATA hard drive, but that will only work with most recent computers, a 386 / 486 is not likely to work correctly with those converters.

1 P100
1 P2 - 450
1 P3- 800
1 P3 - 1000

Btw in some forums says that the compact flash are slower than microsd (class 10) and the compact flash cards cannot be fixed drive anymore. Is that right?

AFAIK, industrial grade CF cards are identified as a fixed hard drive. And it's correct: a good microSD card may be faster than a CF card, but the microsd has to use a crappy chinese converter that will slow it down, whereas the CF connects without any active converters to an IDE port.

İs there any brand and convertor that you can suggest for cf cards

I've also been looking into this and I found the following:
-Apparently some/many(?) CF IDE adapters only use PIO mode and will be relatively slow for a P3.
-msata and m.2 to 44 pin IDE adapters exist and might be neater than a 2.5" SSD and sata->IDE converter, however for a desktop machine you also need a 44-to-40 pin adapter. mSata converters come in 3.3v and 5v variants, you probably need 5v.
-SD or CF cards have the advantage that you can use a bracket or bezel with a slot for them to easily transfer files from another machine

You can also use a Disk-On-Module.

Look for a 8gb 40-pin DOM and it will have what you need. Essentially, it's an early version of an SSD.

However, the speed will likely not break any records. But you can find them new, and they do fit conveniently directly onto your motherboard's PATA pin array.

DOMs seem to be the most expensive option of all though.

I see 8gb DOMs for less than $30 on Amazon, new too.

Mad_Wolf wrote on 2020-04-20, 19:06:

aha2940 wrote on 2020-04-20, 18:57:

Mad_Wolf wrote on 2020-04-20, 16:04:

1 P100 1 P2 - 450 1 P3- 800 1 P3 - 1000 […]
Show full quote

1 P100
1 P2 - 450
1 P3- 800
1 P3 - 1000

Btw in some forums says that the compact flash are slower than microsd (class 10) and the compact flash cards cannot be fixed drive anymore. Is that right?

AFAIK, industrial grade CF cards are identified as a fixed hard drive. And it's correct: a good microSD card may be faster than a CF card, but the microsd has to use a crappy chinese converter that will slow it down, whereas the CF connects without any active converters to an IDE port.

İs there any brand and convertor that you can suggest for cf cards

The CF adaptors usually have no brand. They are cheap chinese ones, but the important part is that they are passive. This means that they do not have any chips on them, they are basically just converting one connector (the CF card one) into a connector with a different shape (the IDE one) but nothing else, so they are very cheap and have no problem. However as someone posted, these cards do not always support Ultra DMA speeds, only PIO so while they are fine for an old Pentium / 486, etc., they can be slow for a newer Pentium III.

If you want a way to do easy file transfer to a system with no USB, a DOM is the worst thing you can choose.

CF is really the best solution, all things considered. Get a CF adapter with a slot-bracket mount. This way, you can access the CF card from the back of the system, which is very convenient to add files, back the whole thing up, etc.

Apparently some/many(?) CF IDE adapters only use PIO mode and will be relatively slow for a P3.

CF-to-IDE adapters are completely passive, they only convert the connector. People are probably not aware of the fact that UDMA33 and up requires an 80-pin IDE cable and that CF cards are always UDMA66 or higher - if they are CompactFlash 3.0 cards from 2004 or later. Before that, CF was PIO only. And many mainboards refuse to enable UDMA at all if no 80-pin IDE cable is present. They don't just switch to a lower UDMA mode that would work with a 40-pin cable (which is not possible with CF cards anyway, they can only use PIO then).

It's nothing you need to care about, really. The much shorter access time gives a much better performance than a hard disk, even if in PIO mode.

derSammler wrote on 2020-04-20, 19:45:

People are probably not aware of the fact that UDMA33 and up requires an 80-pin IDE cable

this should read >UDMA33, as UDMA33 is the last speed to use the black connectors with 40-wire cables. enabling DMA in 98se with a CF on a 440BX board was very noticeable in terms of saving in games even on a fast p3, with PIO the game would grind to a halt for a couple of seconds, which would be cleared up with DMA. however some adapters did actually have some wiring issues that prohibited DMA, the details should be in some thread here probably. the changelog for the CFDISK adapters mentions this, but since the fixed adapters have been out for ~10 years it should not be an issue nowadays.

agree with the sentiment of CF being an excellent solution, it's so good that it completely negates the need for smartdrive in DOS. and for windows the transfer rate maybe isn't the greatest but the low access time still makes for a really snappy feel. the only thing that has concerned me is alignment issues, for some reason partitioning it on modern windows and installing win95/98 on old hardware has not worked out so far, so the wear is probably greater than it should be.

the only other thing to mention is an adaptec+SD2SCSI setup which should perform really well as well and use DMA transfers in both DOS and windows without any involvement needed, however it's a much costlier solution.

120gb SSDs are so cheap now they have practically become the new CF cards for Win98. All the IDE/SATA adapter cards I have used have been rock solid, and don't require an IDE cable at all. For DOS, cf/sd/dom should all be fine.

auron wrote on 2020-04-20, 20:15:

this should read >UDMA33, as UDMA33 is the last speed to use the black connectors with 40-wire cables.

Yes, typo. Sorry. At least it was correct later in the sentence. 😉

well i'm not sure either about the bit regarding CF cards falling back to PIO when trying to run at <UDMA66, since then i should not have been able to access DMA in 98se at UDMA33 and see the aforementioned results. this was on a 16gb transcend 133x and granted, it seems to be a fairly old model so i'm not sure which CF version it is.

kolderman wrote on 2020-04-20, 20:22:

120gb SSDs are so cheap now they have practically become the new CF cards for Win98. All the IDE/SATA adapter cards I have used have been rock solid, and don't require an IDE cable at all. For DOS, cf/sd/dom should all be fine.

Also its told that some ide/sata cards are bad because of the controller.
Can you send me a link or model of your convertor which you didnt have any problem at all

Mad_Wolf wrote on 2020-04-21, 04:01:

kolderman wrote on 2020-04-20, 20:22:

120gb SSDs are so cheap now they have practically become the new CF cards for Win98. All the IDE/SATA adapter cards I have used have been rock solid, and don't require an IDE cable at all. For DOS, cf/sd/dom should all be fine.

Also its told that some ide/sata cards are bad because of the controller.
Can you send me a link or model of your convertor which you didnt have any problem at all

If you look at item number 392760358364 on a certain auction website, you will see the exact sort that I like to use.

I can't vouch for this particular seller, but I have bought near identical ones from other sellers, and they have been really solid. DMA support, no IDE cables, but don't confuse the the 2 SATA ports for master/slave (although that would make them perfect), it's more like one connects to a sata device in one mode; the other connects to a sata port on motherboard in other mode. Never had any issues with them, running over 2 years with at least 4 in different builds. My standard win98 build is one of these + 120GB ssd (or sometimes seagate hdd), without a second thought.

auron wrote on 2020-04-20, 20:15:

however some adapters did actually have some wiring issues that prohibited DMA,

Yes that was what I was referring to.

Edit: the adapter I've got here does not support DMA, but it's old, from 2000 or so.

kolderman wrote on 2020-04-21, 05:17:

Mad_Wolf wrote on 2020-04-21, 04:01:

kolderman wrote on 2020-04-20, 20:22:

120gb SSDs are so cheap now they have practically become the new CF cards for Win98. All the IDE/SATA adapter cards I have used have been rock solid, and don't require an IDE cable at all. For DOS, cf/sd/dom should all be fine.

Also its told that some ide/sata cards are bad because of the controller.
Can you send me a link or model of your convertor which you didnt have any problem at all

If you look at item number 392760358364 on a certain auction website, you will see the exact sort that I like to use.

I can't vouch for this particular seller, but I have bought near identical ones from other sellers, and they have been really solid. DMA support, no IDE cables, but don't confuse the the 2 SATA ports for master/slave (although that would make them perfect), it's more like one connects to a sata device in one mode; the other connects to a sata port on motherboard in other mode. Never had any issues with them, running over 2 years with at least 4 in different builds. My standard win98 build is one of these + 120GB ssd (or sometimes seagate hdd), without a second thought.

That was the model that some websites and some youtube channels were refering as bad 🙁
Generaly speaking the red boarded ones

Mad_Wolf wrote on 2020-04-21, 06:52:

That was the model that some websites and some youtube channels were refering as bad 🙁
Generaly speaking the red boarded ones

They are cheap as chips so just buy a handful and try them out. If you are like me they will work fine.