I can't take anyone who says "A computer without touch is broken" seriously.

appiah4 wrote on 2020-07-01, 11:42:

I can't take anyone who says "A computer without touch is broken" seriously.

Well, back in the 1980s we had light pens on real computers so. .

The French TO7-70 had one by default, for example.

Digitizers like light pens, drawing boards or special touch grids (addons for CRTs) were always around, even before a little rodent got popular.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0BHIknNa6Eg

Nowadays, I wouldn't even bother buying a new laptop without touch screen.

Edit : LCARS from Star Trek or Andromeda is also touch-capable. 😉

Edit: Some cars from the 1980s had touch, too.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Cyberpunk/comments/7 … al_information/

Jo22 wrote on 2020-07-01, 12:01:

Well, back in the 1980s we had light pens on real computers so. . […]
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appiah4 wrote on 2020-07-01, 11:42:

I can't take anyone who says "A computer without touch is broken" seriously.

Well, back in the 1980s we had light pens on real computers so. .

The French TO7-70 had one by default, for example.

Thomson-TO7-70-Lichtgriffel.jpg

Digitizers like light pens, drawing boards or special touch grids (addons for CRTs) were always around, even before a little rodent got popular.

hqdefault.jpg

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0BHIknNa6Eg

Nowadays, I wouldn't even bother buying a new laptop without touch screen.

Edit : LCARS from Star Trek or Andromeda is also touch-capable. 😉
px(1).jpg

Edit: Some cars from the 1980s had touch, too.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Cyberpunk/comments/7 … al_information/

I have nothing against having a touch capable peripheral attached to a computer . However, I do not like putting fingerprints on my primary screen, so no touch for me on that . To bring back the Star Trek analogy, the LCARS terminals may be touch, but I doubt the main viewer is .

The day somebody comes up with an oleophobic coating that actually works and can easily be cleaned, I might change my mind .

appiah4 wrote on 2020-07-01, 11:42:

I can't take anyone who says "A computer without touch is broken" seriously.

Agreed. I could say a computer without Vulkan is broken but I'd be just as wrong. It's just clickbait. I'd trust what someone on these forums (well some people 😉 ) says versus those guys any day of the week.
If there is only xxx in x years then it wouldn't be for the better. Unless we are talking no diseases or somesuch but even that likely wouldn't be a great idea either.

If touch ever becomes mandatory across all screens then I have no problem with it as long as it can be disabled, the price doesn't increase which won't happen, the software isn't crippled for non-touch because the developers are shit, the screens aren't glossy and the screen doesn't become grubby without having to clean it all the time. None of that will never happen or if does it'll be far down the line so it'll be comprimises as always.

darry wrote on 2020-07-01, 12:45:

Jo22 wrote on 2020-07-01, 12:01:

Well, back in the 1980s we had light pens on real computers so. . […]
Show full quote

appiah4 wrote on 2020-07-01, 11:42:

I can't take anyone who says "A computer without touch is broken" seriously.

Well, back in the 1980s we had light pens on real computers so. .

The French TO7-70 had one by default, for example.

Thomson-TO7-70-Lichtgriffel.jpg

Digitizers like light pens, drawing boards or special touch grids (addons for CRTs) were always around, even before a little rodent got popular.

hqdefault.jpg

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0BHIknNa6Eg

Nowadays, I wouldn't even bother buying a new laptop without touch screen.

Edit : LCARS from Star Trek or Andromeda is also touch-capable. 😉
px(1).jpg

Edit: Some cars from the 1980s had touch, too.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Cyberpunk/comments/7 … al_information/

I have nothing against having a touch capable peripheral attached to a computer . However, I do not like putting fingerprints on my primary screen, so no touch for me on that . To bring back the Star Trek analogy, the LCARS terminals may be touch, but I doubt the main viewer is .

Well, you could also wear gloves (remember data gloves, they were a hit in the 80s) or use a touch pen (stylus), just like a typical Palmtop or Handheld PC user did since the 90s. 😉
I use a smartphone pen with my 10" tablet, for example, because it is much more precise and civilized.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_Glove
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stylus_(computing)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palm_(PDA)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Handheld_PC

Edit: Because of the main screen.. Yes, I think that holds true.
Though if the screen on a desktop was slightly tilted, like in a modern pinball game, I'd go with a touch screen.

I have nothing against touch screens. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Touch screens on a desktop/laptop formfactor PC inevitably results in gorilla arm syndrome. Anyone who thinks it is an essential feature to PCs is deluding themselves.

On a desktop/laptop it's not supposed to replace the keyboard and mouse but to complement it... same as the mouse was never supposed to replace the keyboard (and I guess if you search you will find the same comment about mice back then).

Probably people are finding new ways to make use of devices that *you* don't.

Dominus wrote on 2020-07-01, 14:44:

On a desktop/laptop it's not supposed to replace the keyboard and mouse but to complement it... same as the mouse was never supposed to replace the keyboard (and I guess if you search you will find the same comment about mice back then).

Probably people are finding new ways to make use of devices that *you* don't.

There was neve an argument about mice not being ergonomic, as far as I can remember. Their ability to replace keyboards was another argument altogether. And as you may check I did not argue against touch screens on the basis of their inability to replace keyboard and mouse. The problem I pointed out is that they don't even complement them. They can be used on their own in a mobile/tablet form factor, but on a desktop/laptop they are near completely useless to me and people I know.

Dominus wrote on 2020-07-01, 14:44:

On a desktop/laptop it's not supposed to replace the keyboard and mouse but to complement it... same as the mouse was never supposed to replace the keyboard (and I guess if you search you will find the same comment about mice back then).

Probably people are finding new ways to make use of devices that *you* don't.

So you're actually agreeing with appiah4, since "complementary" ~= "not essential", and that's pretty much what he wrote. 😉 I'm not even sure if that clickbaity ex-technologist on twitter meant his "broken" statement seriously, or as a form of sarcasm.

TBH I don't see the parallel with the mouse, because the adoption of mice was 100% related to the introduction of the GUI: you can't really use one effectively without a pointing device. There's no new paradigm-shift in desktop/laptop usage that calls for touch capability in a similar way.

IMO the use of touch screens varies according to who is using. We obviously don't need every screen to be touch screen.

For example, designers and artists would love it, especially with a pen. I for one like it for my UI/UX designs. And having a screen this big with touch instead of buying a bulky WACOM tablet to carry with my MBP? I'd rather get the touch screen. Precision may not be good enough, but it's a complaint I leave for the artists. UI/UX designs don't need that high level of precision which translates later to code.

VileR wrote on 2020-07-01, 15:32:

Dominus wrote on 2020-07-01, 14:44:

On a desktop/laptop it's not supposed to replace the keyboard and mouse but to complement it... same as the mouse was never supposed to replace the keyboard (and I guess if you search you will find the same comment about mice back then).

Probably people are finding new ways to make use of devices that *you* don't.

So you're actually agreeing with appiah4, since "complementary" ~= "not essential", and that's pretty much what he wrote. 😉 I'm not even sure if that clickbaity ex-technologist on twitter meant his "broken" statement seriously, or as a form of sarcasm.

TBH I don't see the parallel with the mouse, because the adoption of mice was 100% related to the introduction of the GUI: you can't really use one effectively without a pointing device. There's no new paradigm-shift in desktop/laptop usage that calls for touch capability in a similar way.

sure, same as mobile phones without a physical keyboard were laughed at... see how that turned out...

Dominus wrote on 2020-07-01, 14:44:

On a desktop/laptop it's not supposed to replace the keyboard and mouse but to complement it... same as the mouse was never supposed to replace the keyboard (and I guess if you search you will find the same comment about mice back then).

Seconded. I am quite happy with the touchscreen on my Thinkpad 25. I use it from time to time for specific things, but never enough to develop the "gorilla arm syndrome", and most of the usage is still keyboard/mouse.

Now, if it has *only* touch (like an iPad), then I can't treat it as a computer at all, because regardless of form factor, just a touchsceen is simply insufficient for any kind of serious content production (as opposed to content consumption, which these devices are often ideal for). Casually type an email / message - sure. Do any serious creative work - no.

Dominus wrote on 2020-07-01, 16:10:

sure, same as mobile phones without a physical keyboard were laughed at... see how that turned out...

Exactly... Who is talking about Blackberry now?

Dominus wrote on 2020-07-01, 14:44:

On a desktop/laptop it's not supposed to replace the keyboard and mouse but to complement it...

anything that makes me take my hands away from my input devices is not complementing but distracting
combined with the absolute lack of haptic feedback (no vibration is not haptic feedback) with touch inputs I don't see the end of keyboards or mice anytime soon, certainly not in my lifetime.

Dominus wrote on 2020-07-01, 16:10:

sure, same as mobile phones without a physical keyboard were laughed at... see how that turned out...

yes, and I still absolutely hate typing on my phone :p there's nothing enjoyable about that.
sure for general browsing and swiping through pictures on a tablet/phone touch is just fine, but while typing "works" it is far from ideal.

dr_st wrote on 2020-07-01, 16:12:

Casually type an email / message - sure. Do any serious creative work - no.

Refer to my post above about serious creatives/designers/artists. They (myself included) clearly need it.

For all other things we have keyboard and mice...

appiah4 wrote on 2020-07-01, 15:24:

Dominus wrote on 2020-07-01, 14:44:

On a desktop/laptop it's not supposed to replace the keyboard and mouse but to complement it... same as the mouse was never supposed to replace the keyboard (and I guess if you search you will find the same comment about mice back then).

Probably people are finding new ways to make use of devices that *you* don't.

There was neve an argument about mice not being ergonomic, as far as I can remember. Their ability to replace keyboards was another argument altogether. And as you may check I did not argue against touch screens on the basis of their inability to replace keyboard and mouse. The problem I pointed out is that they don't even complement them. They can be used on their own in a mobile/tablet form factor, but on a desktop/laptop they are near completely useless to me and people I know.

There *IS* still talk about mice not being ergonomic (carpal tunnel syndrome?). And there are still people that frown upon gui and say they can do things much faster and efficient with the keyboard. And as pointed out, *you* and the people you know don't think a touch screen complements a desktop/laptop, but apparently there *are* people that think so (including me, so now you know someone 😀), e.g. Microsoft, Lenovo, etc...

imi wrote on 2020-07-01, 16:14:

Dominus wrote on 2020-07-01, 16:10:

sure, same as mobile phones without a physical keyboard were laughed at... see how that turned out...

yes, and I still absolutely hate typing on my phone :p there's nothing enjoyable about that.
sure for general browsing and swiping through pictures on a tablet/phone touch is just fine, but while typing "works" it is far from ideal.

people are different, but in general it seems the laughed at touchscreen sweepingly conquered the keyboard on mobiles. Personally I love the touchscreens for what I do on a mobile or tablet. It's there when I need it but disappears and gives me a lot of screen estate when it isn't needed.
I do use and need a keyboard for lengthy stuff. For example short answers on vogons with a touch screen is good. For lengthy answers, I prefer a keyboard.
Similar to how I do quick research on the tablet but for lengthy one, I rather use my imac.

How about mice vs touchpads? I'd rather use a touchpad, but for things like Photoshop I need a mice because of some level of precision (Yes, I am that picky with each pixel I design). Unless I have a touch screen with a pen, then I don't need a mice anymore. All I need is a keyboard, a touch screen, and a touchpad. Alternating between the last two is enough not to have that so called "gorilla arm syndrome". This setup is actually same as the 2020 iPad Pro with a keyboard/touchpad cover, which is why I am saving money for this year. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ but hey, that's just me and my 2 cents.

Bruninho wrote on 2020-07-01, 16:27:

How about mice vs touchpads? I'd rather use a touchpad, but for things like Photoshop I need a mice because of some level of precision (Yes, I am that picky with each pixel I design). Unless I have a touch screen with a pen, then I don't need a mice anymore. All I need is a keyboard, a touch screen, and a touchpad. Alternating between the last two is enough not to have that so called "gorilla arm syndrome". This setup is actually same as the 2020 iPad Pro with a keyboard/touchpad cover, which is why I am saving money for this year. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ but hey, that's just me and my 2 cents.