VOGONS


Identifying PCChips 386 era chipsets

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First post, by Deksor

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It is well known that PCChips is a shady company and that they've faked many things in their history.
For example, in the pentium era they rebranded chipsets with many strange aliases that are documented here :
https://www.hardwaresecrets.com/chipset-alias … -vx-pro-and-co/

For the 486 era they often used UMC chipsets which they erased an added stickers ontop of them.

But I noticed something ...
There is nothing about the 386 era boards they've made !

Take the M396F.
here's mine
QDySRNe.jpg

Sometimes they come with a sticker above the chipset just like with 486 era boards.
jATh0g4h.jpg

Sometimes they come with a different alias

2885086_orig.jpg

And of course the M396F isn't the only board impacted by this. Take this M326 :
pc-chips-m326-v2-motherboard-40mhz_1_c25d559d14c15d91aa50bcfc0a3324bf.jpg

As you can see they sometimes have a "Sarc" chipset ... But what is "sarc" ? They're only seen on pcchips boards it seems. I highly suspect "SARC" to be yet another pcchips owned brand which doesn't really exist and was used to rename chipsets.

When you compare the M326's chipset with this one, they look quite similar !

The attachment qdi-386-4n-d04a-rev2.0 6-5f3066f1a98b3778334552.jpg is no longer available

But I don't own this boards, neither I own most 386 era pcchips boards. I need your help to properly identify these chipsets which are very likely to be well known chipsets with just a different name written on them.

IDENTIFIED CHIPSETS

Last edited by Deksor on 2020-12-21, 21:22. Edited 2 times in total.

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Reply 1 of 21, by Deksor

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Well ...

Actually I compared the SARC RC4018A4 to the UMC UM82C491F because that was the first chipset that looked similar that I had in mind ...
But what if it's really the same chipset ?

I now have good reasons to believe it's the same chipset.

The attachment RC4018A4.jpg is no longer available
The attachment UM82C491F.jpg is no longer available

Each chipset brand has its own "dot pattern" on the top of their chips. This one is matching umc's
This alone is great, but it doesn't prove much yet.
But then I found this !
https://www.elhvb.com/webhq/models/486vlb3/m601.html
The PCChips M601 which also has a RC4018A4 chipset has this POST string :
"40-0101-001437-00101111-080893-UMC491-F" !!

One last hint : when you look on the top right of the SARC chip, look at the connections. There are several pins connected, then one not connected, then several pins not connected, and again a pin not connected.
You can see the same pattern with the UMC UM82C491F on the bottom left ! Relative to the pin #1, they're a perfect match 😀

As a final confirmation, can anyone test the MR BIOS made for the UMC UM82C491F on their PCChips M326 ?

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Reply 2 of 21, by bjwil1991

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I'll be willing to test my M326 board with the MR-BIOS and see what happens once I order some 512Kb EPROM chips.

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Reply 3 of 21, by Deksor

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Nice 😀

Thank you

I've made some progress with other PCChips boards such as the M321 or the M396F

They both have chipsets with "quad dots" pattern. Four dots in each corner with the one in the corner of pin 1 being deeper than the rest.

I've spotted this pattern on via chipsets, opti chipsets and Forex chipsets. Some other chipsets makers have made that way too, but I haven't come across one yet.
UMC's dot pattern is quite different as you've already seen so UMC's off the list for these two. I think Chips & Tech is off too.

Also the m396F's chipset has 208 pins.
The M321 has three chips and the smallest one is a KS83C206Q (I saw a photo of a PCChips m321 with that specific chip that wasn't relabeled)

I haven't found what they are exactly yet, but I've made some progress ...

To summarize :

PCChips M396F : single chip 386SX chipset with 208 pins, 4 dots pattern on the top, not made by UMC

PCChips M321 : three chip 386DX chipset with 4dots pattern on the top of the two biggest chips, not made by UMC, one chip is a KS83C206Q

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Reply 5 of 21, by GigAHerZ

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I've been trying to also understand, what exactly the M321 board used:
Chipset datasheet for M321 (PC Chips) [Found chipset! OPTi 82C391]

Possible candidate is 82C495 from OPTi, but not exactly sure about it.

"640K ought to be enough for anybody." - And i intend to get every last bit out of it even after loading every damn driver!

Reply 6 of 21, by debs3759

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Chipset makers generally buy the chip package from other companies and just add the silicon, so it is entirely feasible that two different chip manufacturers could use the same package with the same identifying marks you point to. No idea whether that is the case here though, you might be right.

See my graphics card database at www.gpuzoo.com
Constantly being worked on. Feel free to message me with any corrections or details of cards you would like me to research and add.

Reply 7 of 21, by Cyberdyne

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UMC chipsets were good, i do not understand why they had to rebrand them in 486....

I am aroused about any X86 motherboard that has full functional ISA slot. I think i have problem. Not really into that original (Turbo) XT,286,386 and CGA/EGA stuff. So just a DOS nut.
PS. If I upload RAR, it is a 16-bit DOS RAR Version 2.50.

Reply 8 of 21, by Anonymous Coward

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Well, back then there wasn't much brand awareness for chipsets. People wouldn't have said "UMC chipsets are good. I'm going to buy a 486 with a UMC chipset". They would have said: "I want to buy a 486. It should be an Intel", and that was that. There were dozens of chipset suppliers, and they all more or less got the job done.

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V'Ger XT|Upgraded AT|Ultimate 386|Super VL/EISA 486|SMP VL/EISA Pentium

Reply 9 of 21, by Deksor

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Anonymous Coward wrote on 2020-08-13, 12:10:

Could the M396F chipset be made by Acer? M1217 for example?

Good try, but I doubt it.

The attachment Ali-m1217.png is no longer available
The attachment m396f-sarc.png is no longer available

The dots are different, and also the traces seem to connect differently !

debs3759 wrote on 2020-08-13, 12:58:

Chipset makers generally buy the chip package from other companies and just add the silicon, so it is entirely feasible that two different chip manufacturers could use the same package with the same identifying marks you point to. No idea whether that is the case here though, you might be right.

True ... But it seems most of each gen of chipsets were made in the same fab for their entire life. All M396F i've seen have this "4 dots" pattern. Same with the M321. It's very likely that the chip under the hood had always this package for its entire life.
Also UMC has the same "two dots" one on chipsets from the same era (plus UMC is a chip maker too iirc).

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Reply 10 of 21, by Deksor

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GigAHerZ wrote on 2020-08-13, 12:44:

I've been trying to also understand, what exactly the M321 board used:
Chipset datasheet for M321 (PC Chips) [Found chipset! OPTi 82C391]

Possible candidate is 82C495 from OPTi, but not exactly sure about it.

Well why not try a MR Bios designed for that chipset to check if it's behaving properly ? 😀

Trying to identify old hardware ? Visit The retro web - Project's thread The Retro Web project - a stason.org/TH99 alternative

Reply 11 of 21, by GigAHerZ

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Deksor wrote on 2020-08-13, 15:57:
GigAHerZ wrote on 2020-08-13, 12:44:

I've been trying to also understand, what exactly the M321 board used:
Chipset datasheet for M321 (PC Chips) [Found chipset! OPTi 82C391]

Possible candidate is 82C495 from OPTi, but not exactly sure about it.

Well why not try a MR Bios designed for that chipset to check if it's behaving properly ? 😀

I have spare eeproms and programmer ready to go!
Ugh, it's hard to orient oneself in there... let's see...

UPDATE: Based on one list, i tried files V020B32E, V020B32F, V020B32G, V020B32H, but none of them booted. Keyboard had all 3 lights lit constantly.

UPDATE 2: After some digging, from various places, it seems M321 and M320 should both share the same chipset. At the same time, i found this picture of M320 board, which this time doesn't have pc chips markings: https://thumbs.worthpoint.com/zoom/images1/1/ … dc83b83ea21.jpg

"640K ought to be enough for anybody." - And i intend to get every last bit out of it even after loading every damn driver!

Reply 12 of 21, by Stiletto

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Deksor, you should check this stuff out (it's regarding fake chips, not really your situation, but anyways...) - it gives some clues to what those circles are. 😀

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k72SFBOZ_lw

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do the Fandango!" - Queen

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Reply 13 of 21, by Anonymous Coward

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Is it possible that the SARC chipset is not an exact copy of anything? I think I saw it had specific support in The Last Byte UMB memory manager.

"Will the highways on the internets become more few?" -Gee Dubya
V'Ger XT|Upgraded AT|Ultimate 386|Super VL/EISA 486|SMP VL/EISA Pentium

Reply 14 of 21, by Deksor

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GigAHerZ wrote on 2020-08-13, 16:57:
I have spare eeproms and programmer ready to go! Ugh, it's hard to orient oneself in there... let's see... […]
Show full quote
Deksor wrote on 2020-08-13, 15:57:
GigAHerZ wrote on 2020-08-13, 12:44:

I've been trying to also understand, what exactly the M321 board used:
Chipset datasheet for M321 (PC Chips) [Found chipset! OPTi 82C391]

Possible candidate is 82C495 from OPTi, but not exactly sure about it.

Well why not try a MR Bios designed for that chipset to check if it's behaving properly ? 😀

I have spare eeproms and programmer ready to go!
Ugh, it's hard to orient oneself in there... let's see...

UPDATE: Based on one list, i tried files V020B32E, V020B32F, V020B32G, V020B32H, but none of them booted. Keyboard had all 3 lights lit constantly.

UPDATE 2: After some digging, from various places, it seems M321 and M320 should both share the same chipset. At the same time, i found this picture of M320 board, which this time doesn't have pc chips markings: https://thumbs.worthpoint.com/zoom/images1/1/ … dc83b83ea21.jpg

Thank you very much for your help ! The search continues then ... Actually I'm not even sure if these bioses have been tested. I can provide you some other bios to try this if you want.

The image link is dead unfortunately 🙁

Stiletto wrote on 2020-08-16, 07:17:

Deksor, you should check this stuff out (it's regarding fake chips, not really your situation, but anyways...) - it gives some clues to what those circles are. 😀

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k72SFBOZ_lw

Thanks ! But I saw this already 😀

Anonymous Coward wrote on 2020-08-16, 10:40:

Is it possible that the SARC chipset is not an exact copy of anything? I think I saw it had specific support in The Last Byte UMB memory manager.

Well there's still a chance sarc chipsets are original parts ... But did they have access to IC manufactures ? Making a chip is expensive afterall, right ?

Now, I wonder ... What is really SARC ? A PCChips brand ? A independent chip maker that made chipsets only for a few years which for some reasons made chipsets almost exclusively for PCChips boards and disappeared afterwards ? Now I wonder ...

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Reply 15 of 21, by Anonymous Coward

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I think Microid Resarch ( MR-BIOS) also made at least one SARC specific BIOS. If I had to guess, some of the SARC chipsets are probably original.

There were definitely a few chipset manufacturers that came and went. FTDI was one. I think most of their chipsets were used in the IBM PS/1, but I know a few Biostar boards used them under the Bioteq label. Then there was ALD. I think they were only around for a few years in the mid 90s (mostly in Asia).

"Will the highways on the internets become more few?" -Gee Dubya
V'Ger XT|Upgraded AT|Ultimate 386|Super VL/EISA 486|SMP VL/EISA Pentium

Reply 16 of 21, by Deksor

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I know, but many of them just moved on to something else or at least are known a little more (FTDI still exists, ALD is "Advanced Linux Design"). SARC is just totally unknown.

Actually the only thing we know for sure is that ... there are chips with a "SARC" brand on them, that's pretty much it 😒

Maybe I'm totally on the wrong way and all sarc chips are original parts, but at least we tried.

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Reply 17 of 21, by computerguy08

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I was able to find some info about the SARC RC2016A8. It appears to be outsourced from Toshiba and it's based on the TC6154AF, a 286 chipset
http://chukaev.ru54.com/cs_full.htm#Toshiba
They relabeled this chip as CDCOM in some cases. Some even have a Toshiba sticker.

The attachment sarc1.jpg is no longer available
The attachment sarc2.jpg is no longer available
The attachment sarc3.jpg is no longer available

There is even a BIOS image from a board claiming to have a Toshiba chipset, you can find it here: http://chukaev.ru54.com/bios_cs.htm (at the Toshiba section)
You can see the boards here: https://www.phantom.sannata.org/viewtopic.php … =18687&start=66

They all seem to share the four dots with a regular Toshiba QFP package.

The attachment tc1.jpg is no longer available

EDIT: found this board on a russian auction site:

The attachment sarc4.jpg is no longer available

Reply 18 of 21, by Anonymous Coward

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I think there is a less common SARC chipset for 386DX as well. I wonder if that is also a Toshiba design.

"Will the highways on the internets become more few?" -Gee Dubya
V'Ger XT|Upgraded AT|Ultimate 386|Super VL/EISA 486|SMP VL/EISA Pentium

Reply 19 of 21, by GigAHerZ

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Deksor wrote on 2020-08-16, 11:19:
GigAHerZ wrote on 2020-08-13, 16:57:
I have spare eeproms and programmer ready to go! Ugh, it's hard to orient oneself in there... let's see... […]
Show full quote
Deksor wrote on 2020-08-13, 15:57:

Well why not try a MR Bios designed for that chipset to check if it's behaving properly ? 😀

I have spare eeproms and programmer ready to go!
Ugh, it's hard to orient oneself in there... let's see...

UPDATE: Based on one list, i tried files V020B32E, V020B32F, V020B32G, V020B32H, but none of them booted. Keyboard had all 3 lights lit constantly.

UPDATE 2: After some digging, from various places, it seems M321 and M320 should both share the same chipset. At the same time, i found this picture of M320 board, which this time doesn't have pc chips markings: https://thumbs.worthpoint.com/zoom/images1/1/ … dc83b83ea21.jpg

Thank you very much for your help ! The search continues then ... Actually I'm not even sure if these bioses have been tested. I can provide you some other bios to try this if you want.

The image link is dead unfortunately 🙁

Sorry, another update: I was flashing 64kB image onto a 32kB chip. So therefore it even wasn't supposed to boot... 😜
But i did order some correct 64kB chips. Will try again, when i have them.

And of course, if you have some additional bios roms, sure, share them! 😀

The image is accessible for me. Uploaded to here.

"640K ought to be enough for anybody." - And i intend to get every last bit out of it even after loading every damn driver!