VOGONS


Legally getting older games.

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First post, by FeedingDragon

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I've seen many posts mentioning Abandonware software. I, personally, consider it the same as piracy. I may not agree with, but I do understand, the arguments against this point of view, and I try not to judge. For informational purposes, I have put together a list of solutions to the legal issues that are involved. These are the steps I take when I really want an older game that could be considered abandonware.

1) I usually make an attempt to find it for sale somewhere (Office Depot bargain bin, Hastings, Wal-Mart, etc...) With the older games, this isn't a likely source, however, I always prefer new purchases over used. I don't always follow this step. Though, in a surprisingly large number of cases, I've found them readily available on compilations by just performing a web search. In larger compilations that include games I either already have or have no interest in, I will continue on to the following steps anyways. Though, you will have to be aware that steps 3 & 4 become less likely to succeed if the games are still available, even in a compilation.

2) Next check out auction sites such as eBay or Yahoo. I also check out local Garage sales that list older computers (C64, Amiga, Atari, etc...) An important note on intellectual properties and licenses: when you purchase a game, legally you are just purchasing a license to use that game. From a legal standpoint, the license does not differ between computer systems. So, if you own "Bard's Tale - Tales of the Unknown," for the C64, then you have a legal right to play it on your PC or Amiga as well, as long as you never play it on more than one system at a time. This doesn't make it legal for web sites to make the game available for download; it just makes it legal for you to download the game. There is an exception to this, if there are major changes between system versions, they can be listed under different copyrights (and thus different licenses.) The law as I read it isn't clear about what exactly constitutes a major change. A lawyer I spoke with about it said that it requires a roughly 25% change (not a change in language, 8088 assembly to 6502 assembly for example, but actual content change.) If you are unsure, and want to make sure, you can request information from the copyright office, (see the final paragraph below,) if the different platform versions are covered under a single copyright or not.

3) If you are completely unable to find the game, or just cannot afford some of the more ridiculous prices for it, you still have options. I've seen older games going for prices that most just cannot afford. I've seen "Ultima II," for example, go for over $200. At this point, I usually send a written letter (with self addressed stamped envelope,) to the copyright owner asking to either purchase the game, or get written permission to gain a copy for my own use. I make it clear that I'm willing to waive technical support on the game. In a couple of cases, when I've done this, I've actually received a cheapo copy of the game from them in the mail (Just the disks with manual printed on an office printer, no extras or boxes, etc...) I've never received an offer to buy the game, but I imagine that it is possible. Usually I receive a letter giving me permission to copy it (I have a file just stuffed with these.) Sometimes I get a letter telling me that they will not give me permission (EA is bad about this, I'm afraid, but I never give up.) At this point, I stop (temporarily, I try again in 6 months.)

4) If you don't receive any response, then there is one last chance. Send a certified letter to the copyright owner stating your intention to procure a copy of the game unless they instruct you not to. State clearly that failure to respond will be taken as tacit permission to obtain the copy. Give them plenty of time to respond to this letter (from the time they receive it.) The longer you give them the better; however, I've been advised that 3 months is a good minimum. This is straight forward copyright law that anyone can look up in the library. If any copyright owner is informed of an infringement (or possible future infringement,) on their intellectual properties, and they take no actions to stop or prevent it, then they lose the rights to that particular copyright, and it becomes public domain. I've only had to go this route once, and I have to admit that they responded extremely fast telling me not to do it. They are on my “ask politely again in 6 months” list (and never get to the certified letter stage again.) Sending a second such letter takes you into harassment. So, don't send any more of that nature unless the copyright owner changes.

The only really difficult part of this is when the original copyright holder no longer exists (Origin Systems for example.) Usually a simple search on the web will let you locate who now owns the copyright. If that fails, then you can usually gain the information by sending a self addressed stamped envelope to the copyright office requesting the information. When I first started questing for older games, there was no charge for this, and I don't have any information that this has changed. However, I haven't sent such a request in several years so I cannot guarantee that. When in doubt, it never hurts to ask first. The certified letter costs a bit (not much though, I believe it's $4 or $5 now.) Other than that, these steps just take time & effort.

Feeding Dragon

Reply 1 of 40, by `Moe`

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Thanks for this great summary. Let me add some comments on international law (and more specifically, German law):

(2) and (4) are most likely to differ, since they don't map 1:1 to international treaties.

2) In Germany, you don't get licenses for off-the-shelf software, you really own your physical copy. (This is mandated by law.) That also means you are not automatically entitled to play any different copy. Even downloading the very same Game & Version is, strictly speaking, illegal, as you are only allowed to make one single copy of your original medium for backup purposes only. On the positive side: The legal relevance of shrink-wrap licenses in Germany is exactly zero.

4) In Germany, such an action would just mean you give the company legal proof of a copyright violation. There is no "if you don't react, you implicitly allow me to". So you can scrap point 4 completely in Germany.

Moreover, Germany has no copyright office. You get copyright by creating the work, there was never the need to register it somewhere, that's why.

Reply 2 of 40, by TomB

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Actually, it's changed recently: http://uk.gamespot.com/news/6162308.html?sid=6162308

Though you could argue PC's are still available, DOS systems have no support from anyone now.

Also, If I want a game I don't want to wait 6 months before downloading it anyway. If I want a game I cannot purchase online I download it. If I then see it in a shop I'll buy it.

To be honest, I think most companies would rather you just download it than pester them with letters.

Reply 3 of 40, by Dominus

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Billington ruled that for games for machines which are no longer available, the copy-protection controls may be bypassed for "archival purposes." He also added that games with copy-protection that require "dongles" that were damaged and could not be replaced were also allowed to circumvent the copy-protection systems. Dongles are hardware devices that users have to physically connect to their machine to authenticate a game and allow them to play it--they first came out in the '80s and have since fallen out of popular use.

We discussed this elsewhere already and this does not really apply. If you are running a library (and believe me, saying you are archiving old games thus you are a library won't hold in court) you are allowed to circumvent copy-protections to archive a game. Copyright is not touched by this.

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Reply 4 of 40, by Qbix

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it doesn't really deal with distribution either.
Anyway that is a bit off the topic.

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Reply 5 of 40, by Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman

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Unfortunately I live in Indonesia --there's not even a goddamn single store here selling legitimate, boxed PC games. Thus, the only way for me to satisfy my game box/manual fetish is ebay. 🙁

That being said, I always welcome anyone who want to sell their old games to me. 😀

Never thought this thread would be that long, but now, for something different.....
Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman.

Reply 6 of 40, by red_avatar

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The problem with ebay for me is that Belgium sucks for old games. When DOS games were released, only a tiny fraction of people had PCs for gaming and very very few stores actually sold games. As a result, very few DOS games (early 90s) are being sold on ebay and I have to look at the UK (France & Germany sell translated versions). And shipping from the UK means at least £3-4 for a boxed game meaning that a game easily costs £7-8 which is expensive for a game which you could find for next to nothing in a second hand store if you were lucky.

Reply 7 of 40, by v0g0ns

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Im in Peru, does someone know of an online store that sells pacckaged old classic games over the net?
thanks!

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Reply 8 of 40, by SBDiT

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This topic game up in another thread and I was asked to post my comments here and I carefully composed them but.... I got timed out and it threw my post out and so.... I ain't got the time for this... other than to say that I tried.

SBDiT

Reply 9 of 40, by dh4rm4

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FeedingDragon wrote:

From a legal standpoint, the license does not differ between computer systems. So, if you own "Bard's Tale - Tales of the Unknown," for the C64, then you have a legal right to play it on your PC or Amiga as well, as long as you never play it on more than one system at a time.

That sounds utterly wrong. By that logic movies and songs with the same name would all fall under one license which they most certainly do not. A different platform target version of a game means that it incorporates different code and resources (and has often been programmed by entirely different person or team) so it is then a different product altogether and governed by its own individual license. I'd like some evidence that justifies your claim.

Reply 10 of 40, by Dominus

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An example for dh4rm4's point is Crusader: No Remorse, the playstation version does not have much in common with the dos counterpart, except the graphics and even those were modified. The levels had been newly designed especially for the playstation (and I think the Sega Saturn) port. Other examples are varios Ultima ports.
I can see the reasoning that one WANTS to believe that having the one port justifies one to get another system port of the game. But in the end it's very similar to owning a music record. Owning that doesn't allow one to just grab mp3 rips of Audio-CDs of the same title... Just seen from the legal side....

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Reply 11 of 40, by MiniMax

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I still say the legal side is a bit jiffy... For one it really depends on where in the world you are. To quote the Swedish law on copyrights:

Reproduction for Private Purposes […]
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Reproduction for Private Purposes

Article 12. Anyone is entitled to make, for private purposes, single copies of works which have been made public. Such copies may not be used for other purposes.

The provisions in the first paragraph do not apply to computer programs and do not include a right to construct a work of architecture.

The provisions in the first paragraph do not confer a right to engage, for private purposes, another person to

1. make copies of musical works or cinematographic works,

2. make useful articles or sculptures,

3. copy another person's artistic work by artistic reproduction.

So I am perfectly in my rights to make an MP3 rip of my CD's for listening to them on my mobile phone. What it does not allow me to do, is to have someone else rip the CD's for me, and it certainly does not allow me to download the MP3 files from someone else.

Ports of software between different platforms is definitely not "the same", and a license for one platform rarely covers other platforms.

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Reply 12 of 40, by Hater Depot

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There is also the Game Trading Zone, where I've picked up many old games including the Police Quest Collection.

http://gametz.com

Reply 13 of 40, by Freddo

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EBay works well enough for me. Bought several DOS games from there last year.

Haven't bought any DOS game lately, though, cause frankly I can't think of any DOS game that interest me which I don't already own, so yay 😁

Reply 14 of 40, by red_avatar

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I used to use that quite a lot - got some incredibly good deals through there (sold Touché for $100 at a time when the dollar was worth nearly twice what it's worth now) - but then they started to charge money and for the few times I actually traded, it made it too expensive. Since then they luckily changed the subscription to mostly trivial extras instead of forcing you to pay to be able to sell.

The plus side was that P&P in the USA is rediculously high while shipping something from here (Belgium) is like half cheaper so it was much easier to trade a game because you each only paid the P&P to have it shipped.

Reply 15 of 40, by djp

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Also, at MobyGames (http://www.mobygames.com/home) each game has a buy/trade link on the left listing users who have it & are willing to trade.

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Reply 16 of 40, by Garrett

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Liberated Games is a good place for finding legal downloads. They only offer games that have been personally "liberated" by the copyright holder as freeware/open source/etc. (there's no abandonware here), and for each game they supply a copy of the usage terms to verify its free status.

Most of the games are DOS but there are also some Windows titles (such as Command & Conquer). There aren't many games listed, but on the plus side there's no doubt about the legality.

Reply 17 of 40, by aka286dos

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liberatedgames.org doesn't look very legitimate to me, infact it looks very iffy. A lot of the entries just say "the license on these files is unclear." "Your best option for a precise answer is to retain an attorney."

Reply 18 of 40, by MiniMax

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Could you give an example aka286dos?

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Reply 19 of 40, by aka286dos

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an example? i just clicked on the first game on the homepage, sam and max.

last time I checked the site about a year ago there were many others that had this same statement - how is it different from abandonware?