I have not bought any since Yuden sold out to CMC - they have such a bad reputation I can't see those being good.
verbatim disks *COULD* be good - but too much outsourcing and you never really knew what you were getting. The last digital movie ones I got were absolute GARBAGE

bestemor wrote on 2021-08-10, 13:20:

Well, I still have some hopes for blu-ray discs, with the 'Panasonic' Japan-made ones being the only ones worth spending any mon […]
Show full quote

Well, I still have some hopes for blu-ray discs, with the 'Panasonic' Japan-made ones being the only ones worth spending any money on.

Sure, they cost up to 2x what the best Verbatims go for, depending on your location, but the error levels are/can be significantly lower (5x-10x !).
(I intend to use them as an extra archiving option)

Not sure about the M-discs though, how they fare in this comparison. (now THOSE are expensive, both the blu-rays and DVDs)

BD-Rs still being made in Japan? That's news to me. Please link to these Panasonic "made in Japan" BD-R discs, and where to buy. I've had fairly good success with Optical Quantum for BD-R, but I didn't know there were ANY BD-R manufacturers or fab plants in Japan. Especially since the closure of the TY Japan fabrication plant years ago.

I haven't trusted any blank media for years now -- since that TY plant closure, but if there are still some good BD-R media left, I'm all ears.

zyzzle wrote on 2021-08-14, 08:00:

bestemor wrote on 2021-08-10, 13:20:

Well, I still have some hopes for blu-ray discs, with the 'Panasonic' Japan-made ones being the only ones worth spending any mon […]
Show full quote

Well, I still have some hopes for blu-ray discs, with the 'Panasonic' Japan-made ones being the only ones worth spending any money on.

Sure, they cost up to 2x what the best Verbatims go for, depending on your location, but the error levels are/can be significantly lower (5x-10x !).
(I intend to use them as an extra archiving option)

Not sure about the M-discs though, how they fare in this comparison. (now THOSE are expensive, both the blu-rays and DVDs)

BD-Rs still being made in Japan? That's news to me. Please link to these Panasonic "made in Japan" BD-R discs, and where to buy. I've had fairly good success with Optical Quantum for BD-R, but I didn't know there were ANY BD-R manufacturers or fab plants in Japan. Especially since the closure of the TY Japan fabrication plant years ago.

I haven't trusted any blank media for years now -- since that TY plant closure, but if there are still some good BD-R media left, I'm all ears.

Well, not sure about 'still' being made, but.... they are still to be found for sale. And to my surprise some disc must have been made at least in 2018 or even later.

I bought 1 of mine here:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/323564368300
(it was the last one sold, got it for only $69 incl shipping!)

And here are some other ones which still has stock:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/143092550369
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/163692550105

And this one looks rather special, with the '4K' in yellow text box there, not seen that before, so might be new.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/313348479210
(I sent a message asking about that, but never got any answer....)

You'll also find other listings in the 'sponsored' ones showing up under the picture.

And, you could might as well just order from the amazon sellers directly:
https://www.amazon.co.jp/-/en/Panasonic-LM-BR … n/dp/B01M9DDFK3

More options:
https://www.amazon.co.jp/s?k=brs25mp50&langua … &ref=nb_sb_noss

I was able to make an account there, using google translate directly on the pages. But I already have enough of these, and prices has risen since, so...

OR..... Or you can try your luck with ordering directly from the Panasonic store:
https://ec-plus.panasonic.jp/store/ap/storeae … HB=LM-BRS25M50S

I still think they are totally worth the extra cost. At least if you consider the implications of errors and wasted money on inferior products.
Yes, that includes the Verbatim -ime discs as well:
https://www.amazon.com/Verbatim-BD-R-Blu-ray- … a/dp/B00GSQ4DBM
(the 'MABL' logo on the spindle indicates the higest quality, ie. the 'Verbat-IMe' MID, as the second customer review on that pages writes about)
-----

Now, for my own discs, here are the 2018 copyrighted results.
I first tried burning on my Pioneer S09XLT bluray burner, and results were somewhat dissappointing, compared to earlier discs:

As you can see, the copyright is 2018, lower right side text of the paper inlay's backside (not visible until opening the spindle).

First burn and scan:

I was normally getting 250-350000 LDC and around 3-4000 BIS errors.

Now, for the Liteon burn, which really shocked me:

😲😁

Compared to Verbatim (VERBAT-IME mid), on a Pioneer 209EBK:

All disks burnt on 4x speed, tested/scanned in the exact same Liteon burner.

PS: for arguments sake, I believe there are Verbatim discs actually made in Japan (by Panasonic perhaps, but I have not access to the MID information, so...):
https://www.amazon.com/Verbatim-98916-M-Disc- … e/dp/B01BGW9KWY

Mind you, beware the cost..... ouch ... (USD$ 280 for 25 discs!)

This discussion reminds me of the twilight era of floppy disks, when quality dropped considerably. Disks made in the 1980s were claimed to be more reliable than disks made in the late 90s and early 2000s.

Errius wrote on 2021-08-14, 15:49:

This discussion reminds me of the twilight era of floppy disks, when quality dropped considerably. Disks made in the 1980s were claimed to be more reliable than disks made in the late 90s and early 2000s.

This must be true, because I had extraordinary amounts of late-90s early 2000-s floppies that simply failed after 1-2 uses.

bestemor wrote on 2021-08-14, 13:23:

PS: for arguments sake, I believe there are Verbatim discs actually made in Japan (by Panasonic perhaps, but I have not access t […]
Show full quote

PS: for arguments sake, I believe there are Verbatim discs actually made in Japan (by Panasonic perhaps, but I have not access to the MID information, so...):
https://www.amazon.com/Verbatim-98916-M-Disc- … e/dp/B01BGW9KWY
Verbatim MadeInJapan_100gb.JPG
Mind you, beware the cost..... ouch ... (USD$ 280 for 25 discs!)

I'm not surprised with 100gig capacity each.

My 50pcs 4.7gig Verbatim DVD-Rs made in Taiwan I got at Jaycar .

I do a scout around our local charity/second hand shops and often score sealed SONY, PANASONIC, Imation etc optical medial at a reasonable price.

For quick and dirty stuff I use Chinese produced optical media and haven't had a problem. Generaly use it for NetInstalls of Linux on old kit. Far easier to find than a small USB stick I've put down somewhere.

bestemor wrote on 2021-08-14, 12:55:

And this one looks rather special, with the '4K' in yellow text box there, not seen that before, so might be new.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/313348479210
(I sent a message asking about that, but never got any answer....)

Recent ones have '4K' on the label. I imported a bunch of these in 2018 and that label wasn't there, but when I imported a bunch more a couple of months ago the '4K' label was there. It's just added so they can claim an approximate storage time capacity for 4K video (like with the old recording speeds/modes on VHS tapes). The discs themselves are the same product as before (well, more or less, as the new discs scan with slightly lower quality but still kick the $!@# out of the other junk on the market).

I've still got a fair representation of optical drives over the years. The CUMANA drive is from my first RiscPC. It has a Panasonic interface and attached to a small adapter board and hooked to the IDE cable as slave. I couldn't get it to play nicely so replaced it with a nice beige IDE CD reader which worked first pop.

opieant wrote on 2021-08-14, 19:53:

Recent ones have '4K' on the label. I imported a bunch of these in 2018 and that label wasn't there, but when I imported a bunch more a couple of months ago the '4K' label was there. It's just added so they can claim an approximate storage time capacity for 4K video (like with the old recording speeds/modes on VHS tapes). The discs themselves are the same product as before (well, more or less, as the new discs scan with slightly lower quality but still kick the $!@# out of the other junk on the market).

Now THERE is some useful info! Thankyou. 👌
So, that probably proves they still manufacture these things, and sadly also that the quality has slumped ever so slightly.

- You perhaps know if the copyright date has changed from '2018'?
And what pray tell is your aveage scan on these 'new' ones ? (LDC/BIS 'total', and Jitter)

bestemor wrote on 2021-08-15, 06:31:

- You perhaps know if the copyright date has changed from '2018'?
And what pray tell is your aveage scan on these 'new' ones ? (LDC/BIS 'total', and Jitter)

The date is 2019 on the paper insert. Keep in mind that those dates don't normally change unless the packaging/insert has been changed. In case you're thinking of asking, I haven't checked the disc hubs for a date printed there, but I expect that they were made quite recently. Retailers in Japan still seem to be selling 30-packs for the equivalent of about $35-50 USD each. It's definitely not just the single-quantity or low-quantity listings seen internationally from Amazon marketplace sellers and eBay sellers that are available.

I'm not turning this into a scan quality thread, so I'm not listing any numbers. The main difference I'm seeing between the older discs and the newer ones is that the newer ones have more (or some) momentary spikes while the old ones usually had none. Nothing immediately concerning, but the difference is there, and I've seen scans with similar small spikes of recent discs over at Myce.

Thankyou. That is enough info for me. Yeah, I know, was just curious to see if a newer date was there at all.
And I just saw your recent scans on myce.

bestemor wrote on 2021-08-15, 20:34:

Thankyou. That is enough info for me. Yeah, I know, was just curious to see if a newer date was there at all.
And I just saw your recent scans on myce.

If I posted any scans on that site it was from the 2018 ("old") batch (which had its own minor quality inconsistency issues, but again still always high quality). I haven't posted scans of the latest (2021) ones anywhere.

dr_st wrote on 2021-08-04, 06:33:

My first DVD burner I got in 2004, with a WinXP machine. They were not common back then. I remember I got my first batch of measly 1x DVD-R media from a friend, who had mistakenly bought them thinking they were CD-R, and his burner did not support DVDs.

I recently burned a DVD-R at 1X. I was testing the oldest DVD-RW drive in my collection, a LG GCA-4020B from out of one of the early lampshade iMacs. The drive was made in October 2002 and 19 years later can no longer read DVD-Rs, but interestingly can still burn them (though of course verification fails. I tested the disk in a different drive.) The drive can burn at 2X but I decided on 1X for improved reliability. The burn took 50 minutes. I never want to do this again.

This isn't the oldest DVD burner I've ever owned however. My very first was a HP 100i which I bought in November 2002, and which would have been manufactured around a year earlier. However, I didn't keep it long because it could only write DVD+RW media, which back then was very expensive compared to DVD+R. (It couldn't handle DVD- media at all). I replaced it with a NEC ND-1000A the following year, which could write DVD+R (but still didn't support DVD- disks).

Anyone ever try DVD RAM? I got hold of a few disks and stuck them in a drive that was supposed to support it at 4x, but wow, it felt slower than running stuff off a floppy. It also seemed a lot slower than using a disk in UDF/packet mode at same write speeds. I expected it to be "as originally advertised" like having a slow HDD platter... and I've had some slow HDDs, but stick a crusty old ST251A in alongside one of these and I think it would win.

My first experience with burning CDs was very poor. My first drive was prone to horrible buffer underruns which lead to many disc coasters. I also didn't understand the technology at the time and thought that this was normal. I also didn't understand that a disc had to be "finalized" and couldn't understand why discs wouldn't read in non-burner drives; I also thought that this was normal.

Eventually I got a better drive and learned how to properly burn a disc. After that I used them all the time as they were an inexpensive way to backup data and make copies of game CDs.

I still keep spindles of blank DVD-Rs and CD-Rs as they are still useful for moving data onto retro computers and to burn operating system discs. But I no longer keep a dedicated drive in my main computer since I use them so rarely. An external drive is sufficient for my needs now.

Thank you all (especially bestemor) for outstanding info. The more we have on BD-Rs, the better, so it won't bother most, I'm sure, if this thread has more scans. But, it is just because of information like this that we, as consumers, can help each other avoid all the rubbishy products being sold today. This is really sharing the love, especially in regards to something (media) which *should* have archival quality, but it most certainly no longer does due to maddeningly cheap manufacturers not caring, not paying attention, and commoditizing the products, and definitely not being "fair" with the end-consumers.

We must rely upon technical information, from kind people like those within this thread, to make truly informed buying decisions. I've been burning media for 25+ years now. It's truly ironic, to say the least, that quality media I burnt 20-25 years ago will most certainly last longer than shitty media you purchase TODAY. That's sad and tragic.

And, yes, floppy disks were the same way. I've got disks from the '70s which still read 100% perfectly today. Yet, floppies with cheap, unlaminated ferric oxide coatings from the mid-'90s failed within a year, and often were bad right out of the box. But, most every disk I have from the late '70s-mid '80s (which were *expensive*, $1 to $5 per floppy!) still verifies today with no bad sectors.

Errius wrote on 2021-08-15, 21:21:

I recently burned a DVD-R at 1X. I was testing the oldest DVD-RW drive in my collection, a LG GCA-4020B from out of one of the early lampshade iMacs. The drive was made in October 2002 and 19 years later can no longer read DVD-Rs, but interestingly can still burn them (though of course verification fails. I tested the disk in a different drive.) The drive can burn at 2X but I decided on 1X for improved reliability. The burn took 50 minutes. I never want to do this again.

I can relate to the experience... Is it GCA, or GSA, though? Most early LG DVD burners were GSA-something, IIRC.

Errius wrote on 2021-08-15, 21:21:

This isn't the oldest DVD burner I've ever owned however. My very first was a HP 100i which I bought in November 2002, and which would have been manufactured around a year earlier. However, I didn't keep it long because it could only write DVD+RW media, which back then was very expensive compared to DVD+R. (It couldn't handle DVD- media at all). I replaced it with a NEC ND-1000A the following year, which could write DVD+R (but still didn't support DVD- disks).

Oh, yeah, another thing with those early burners is that they usually would only do DVD+ or DVD-, but not both. Within a year or two this limitation had been overcome, though.

BitWrangler wrote on 2021-08-15, 21:42:

Anyone ever try DVD RAM? I got hold of a few disks and stuck them in a drive that was supposed to support it at 4x, but wow, it felt slower than running stuff off a floppy. It also seemed a lot slower than using a disk in UDF/packet mode at same write speeds.

I have used DVD-RAM in the past, and I still have about 20 of them, I guess. I found the idea of having a completely random access DVD as quite neat. It is much more reliable than the packet mode stuff, and has better SW compatibility, as far as I remember. XP and older OS may need a DVD-RAM driver to be able to write them, but it's seamless once installed, and reading them never seemed to be a problem (as long as the physical drive is capable). Plus they are rated for a significantly number of read/write cycles than ordinary media.

But, yes, they are slow. Some drives were rated up to 12x DVD-RAM speed, but I have never even 5x media (although I think it exists). All the disks I have are 3x max. Also, DVD-RAM writing process has built-in verification after every write, which makes it twice as slow, and I'm not sure how/if you can turn it off.

I had been using them for backing up stuff that I wanted changed/amended once in a while, because it's easier to add/remove files compared to a normal DVD. However, they eventually became next to useless, due to the slowness, combined with the ultimately low capacity (~4.5GB per disk was a lot 15 years ago, but now it is nothing).

Instead of managing 20-something DVD-RAM disks that altogether don't even amount to 100GB, it is much easier to get a tiny 128GB USB flash drive that is much faster and compatible with every PC from 2000 to date, regardless of whether they have an optical disk drive or not.

Kahenraz wrote on 2021-08-16, 00:00:

I still keep spindles of blank DVD-Rs and CD-Rs as they are still useful for moving data onto retro computers and to burn operating system discs. But I no longer keep a dedicated drive in my main computer since I use them so rarely. An external drive is sufficient for my needs now.

I still have one drive in my main desktop, since it's a handy thing to have once in a while. 10 years ago I would put two drives in every desktop, since I was both burning and using disks much more frequently.

The GCA-4020B was actually produced by HLDS/HL-DT-ST so a Toshiba/LG drive.

I also have another lampshade iMac, a later model, which comes with a 4X Pioneer drive instead, a DVR-106D/PC.

I burned my fair share of CD's and DVD's but I can't really say I'm nostalgic about them.
Still at the moment I would never consider a PC build without an internal optical drive even though new PC cases which support 5.25" trays have become extinct.
I hope those usb drives are any good.