Which model it is? Maybe a better question would be which model you want it to be...

Take a look at the lists here:
http://uktsupport.co.uk/pb/faq/model.htm

The PB68x was used from late 16-format (Mona Lisa) until (late) 20-format (Hermes). That was all Windows 95. Now, all things being equal, I'd recommend going for the 20-format Hermes, but take a look at the different sound/modem options per model. All the Da Vinci and Hermes models with PB68x have some form of sound card, if you don't have a sound card with Aztech AZT2320 chip, you'd need to go for the Mona Lisa. The MMX or non-MMX isn't relevant as it's a hardware-only difference, there's no impact on drivers. so any 682 Orlando 2D would be fine.

So that looks like your short list is 9005d/3, 9007en/3 or 9016/3

Of course, a large part of the PB crapware was multimedia-related, so if you want the full experience, I'd recommend digging up an AZT2320-based card. They are some of the cheapest ISA sound cards out there at the moment, but are actually surprisingly good, both in DOS and early Windows (and work out of the box in contemporary Linux too, which was pretty unusual at the time), and the most convenient one for these purposes, the Sound 16C, is one of the commonest and cheapest, being an odd triangular design. HP also used them, calling them "MM Pro16V", with HP's cards being functionally identical to the PB ones (i.e. should work with same software), just different colours on the external 3.5mm posts.

Find one of those and you can go for Hermes, with the 9029, 9030, Pulsar 19 or Pulsar 21. These would have had 'Pizza tower' cases rather than the 4x4 desktop, but the case isn't relevant to software. Alternately, get a Rocky 2.5 (i.e. Aztech MMSN855, also pretty common) and go for one of the Da Vinci models.

Firstly, thank you for responding, and for all the information you've provided.

Which model it is? Maybe a better question would be which model you want it to be...

OK, that's a very interesting way of looking at this, and never really considered thinking of it like that. From what you're saying then, since so many models were based on the PB680, that the soundcard in particular will dictate the series and model this would've been, or indeed could be. It's a shame it's missing from the system then, as it would've narrowed down considerably what the model would've been, but knowing this, obviously it doesn't really matter, as I have a choice.

So what about the other hardware, the HDD and CD-ROM, they would also need to be specific brand / types for each model or series (Hermes etc) of models, so how could I find out what I need? The thing I remember in the setup of the Club 40, is the Tattoo process required entering various system information and selecting components from a list of specific hardware, and the pre-installed software package could also be selected according to model, it was the 'Club College' pack, and that was only once I'd found the correct Boot & Master CD combination, which took me almost a year. It's for this reason that I really wanted to know the model, it would've been nice to know what it was originally, but also so I know how it should be configured, and more importantly what version of Master CD I need.

However, if I look at this from your perspective (I know, you wouldn't do this at all 🤣), and mad as it is, wanting to restore for the complete Packard Bell experience, then perhaps this time as I don't have any hardware to dictate what model and software it needs, that I should do the reverse, and let the software availability be more a deciding factor in which model it should be. That being the case, I'm guessing the Tattoo process will be similar, and you've already provided me with the soundcard model variations, but once I have a Master CD, is there any way of finding out the other hardware options for each model as some kind of hidden list?

No luck finding a Hermes series Master CD, so I guess the later models are out, but then I'd always think of it as being mutant if it was the wrong case. Even on eBay, most are US versions, but there was one for a 9019XE on archive.org, but that's an Orlando 3D. Luckily, there was a UK Boot Disk + Master CD (PN 6708440301) from an owner of an Executive Multimedia 9021XE, which on UKT is one of the Da'Vinchi series models. As mine is an Orlando 2D with the s3 Trio 64v, that means this could be either a 9025 or 9026, so would need the combo Aztech 2320 / Rocky 2.5 card (Aztech MMSN855) you suggested.

Thanks dionb, you've helped me a great deal, and I'd welcome any other suggestions you have, or answers to any of the above queries regarding the other hardware.

MCDs were (generally) not specific to a model but to a range. That was the whole reason for all the configuration flags in format and hidden sector, to determine which drivers and software needed to be installed. So the fact that a CD was from an Orlando 3D system is pretty irrelevant, so long as there were also Orlando 2D models in the same range. You did however need to make sure that the CD was newer than all the components in the system - the third and fourth last digits in the CD give the revision version. The ones listed on UKTSupport are the latest that will work on any computer from that format, whereas older ones may not (eg. 6709881101 is the 11th revision of format 20 Hermes MCD, 6709880101 would have been the first)

I appreciate you explaining that, I've learnt something new, and very useful. All I discovered was the last 2 digits determined the language version.
I have to admit, whilst I find these MCD's frustrating to find and understand now, or at least the Tattoo part, I can appreciate what a clever system it was for Packard Bell at the time from a production perspective, especially when they had so many models.

Sorry, I've a curious mind, but how do you determine the relevant format or series from an MCD, eg Format 20 = Hermes?
Is there any other useful information hidden within the MCD part number, date codes etc?

Also, any way of finding out the supported hardware / software from an MCD, or boot disk, something like a file containing a list?

BigDave wrote on 2024-06-11, 06:38:

I appreciate you explaining that, I've learnt something new, and very useful. All I discovered was the last 2 digits determined the language version.
I have to admit, whilst I find these MCD's frustrating to find and understand now, or at least the Tattoo part, I can appreciate what a clever system it was for Packard Bell at the time from a production perspective, especially when they had so many models.

The whole idea was to make it frustrating and hard to understand...

Sorry, I've a curious mind, but how do you determine the relevant format or series from an MCD, eg Format 20 = Hermes?

"Format" can mean two things. It can be the FN-code needed for older MCSs, but more generically that is how major releases were referred to internally, each time with an increment of 2 between them (assumedly the odd numbers were dev versions). The oldest I recall working with was format 14, the first Win95 release. 22 (Reno) was the last Win95 release etc.

Is there any other useful information hidden within the MCD part number, date codes etc?

Not that I'm aware of.

Also, any way of finding out the supported hardware / software from an MCD, or boot disk, something like a file containing a list?

Take a look here for software:
http://uktsupport.co.uk/pb/faq/9000mast.htm#list

As for hardware... trial and error or reverse engineering based on the system a disk was shipped with? This wasn't documented as systems were shipped with a CD that was correct for their own hardware and if lost, the latest version of that release was shipped.

"Format" can mean two things. It can be the FN-code needed for older MCSs, but more generically that is how major releases were referred to internally, each time with an increment of 2 between them (assumedly the odd numbers were dev versions). The oldest I recall working with was format 14, the first Win95 release. 22 (Reno) was the last Win95 release etc.

That's what I found slightly confusing with regards the use of 'Format', and now the series, or format release structure makes sense, I realised it was going up by 2, but couldn't match all the names and OS. I remember the Club 40 being Format 24 'Hercules', so guess 'Symphony' is Format 26 and so on until XP.

Pity there's no supported hardware options list, but I suppose I could try installing on a VM and see if there's any options to choose from during setup. Now I know the soundcard options, I just need to find out what to go shopping for in terms of a compatible HDD and CD ROM, or whether anything I already have could be used, and of course I'd like to get all as close to stock original as possible depending on the model. I have got an IDE - CD Card adapter, so perhaps I could use that instead, although my card is 8GB card, and seem to remember Win95 having a 4GB limit, and not sure, but think most of these Packard Bell PB68x PCs had between 2gb - 4.3gb anyway. I could may split into 2 partitions, or just get a smaller card.

The software list is very helpful, and don't know how I missed it the amount of time I've spent on UKT, so I'll go looking around on archive.org for those.

Well, I think you've given me enough information to get started on this restoration, but if I have anymore questions, I hope you won't mind helping out again. You have a great knowledge of Packard Bells, and I'm very grateful for it, as it'll help me 'hopefully' bring this old whatever model Packard Bell it is back to it's former glory. I've actually compiled all of the information I've found out about these systems from you, and various sources into a single document I've written, so I have everything I need to know to hand, for easier reference.

It's funny, I used to use a similar system to this Master CD when I built Mame cabinets over 20 years ago. It was only a hobbyist thing, and all very old school, but I was professional about how I went about it, so basically I wrote a long batch file with different menu options to select on a bootable floppy disk, which would then setup the OS (DOS/FreeDOS), custom frontend, emulator/s and game configuration according the PC type I selected, from CD-ROM. I only used 4 types of PC's and all were Pentium 2 Intel 440BX based, but their specs and emulation capabilities varied, and was down to availability. So, once I'd spent time testing and configuring everything for each type, it would be able to set it all up automatically from then on, saving lots of time, although the 15" CRT monitors varied, so some games needed tweaking afterwards due to resolution issues. On slower systems, my frontend allowed me to have different emulators assigned to run each game, as some were faster or more accurate for a particular game than others. The PC hardware inside those old cabinets are probably worth about 10 times what I paid for it back then, but who knew.

Thanks dionb, you're a PB Legend! ...maybe not, they're US models 😉 ha ha
BTW, am I right in reading somewhere on here that you worked for Packard Bell in the UK years ago?

Not in the UK, for the UK. The UK&IE service desk was located in the Netherlands and I was a student prepared to do almost anything for some money. Spent two years, the first mainly answering calls, the second doing correspondence (one of only two native speakers on the team...) and working on unofficial documentation. Awful employer though - at one point our team lead was told his job no longer existed and literally given a broom to keep himself busy...

Sadly don't have much of that old documentation left, let alone any software. I do have a ridiculously over-specced 1999-era system with Squarius II case, 'Bora Pro' (MSI MS-6168) motherboard with onboard Voodoo 3, upgraded to 512MB RAM, P3-1400S and 32GB SLC SATA SSD. And no, it does NOT run the original Symphony 2000 software. Currently I have Win2k on it (due to a joke a colleague at PB pulled on me 23 years ago), although I intend to downgrade to Win98SE as I just moved a dual P3 (decidedly non-PB, HP/Asus motherboard in fact) to Win2k.

dionb wrote on 2024-06-12, 21:12:

Not in the UK, for the UK. The UK&IE service desk was located in the Netherlands and I was a student prepared to do almost anything for some money. Spent two years, the first mainly answering calls, the second doing correspondence (one of only two native speakers on the team...) and working on unofficial documentation. Awful employer though - at one point our team lead was told his job no longer existed and literally given a broom to keep himself busy...

Sadly don't have much of that old documentation left, let alone any software. I do have a ridiculously over-specced 1999-era system with Squarius II case, 'Bora Pro' (MSI MS-6168) motherboard with onboard Voodoo 3, upgraded to 512MB RAM, P3-1400S and 32GB SLC SATA SSD. And no, it does NOT run the original Symphony 2000 software. Currently I have Win2k on it (due to a joke a colleague at PB pulled on me 23 years ago), although I intend to downgrade to Win98SE as I just moved a dual P3 (decidedly non-PB, HP/Asus motherboard in fact) to Win2k.

Sorry I confused the location, but that's interesting to hear about your experience, and as a student, probably not a bad way to start getting in on a computer company, even if they weren't very good to work for. Then again, who is. Shame about all that documentation, I'd imagine it contained a wealth of useful information, and to be honest, I'm having hard time finding much out there, other than on here, UKT, Nostalgia Mall, and PBPassion, even the WayBack machine really only has stuff for the US Packard Bells, although found some FTP files that could be useful, but that's why I was so keen to contact you.

In the 80s & 90s, I worked in consumer electronics sales, sadly no computers, and switched companies several times, but in the last, around 1993 they eventually got these overpriced crappy Siemens Nixdorf PC EPOS systems in, running on OS2, with tape drive backup. Me and this Asian guy, were the only ones that really understood the computers, and we discovered one of them was a 486DX, offgrid, and running Win 3.11, so used to get in early and load up some games, but that was the first IBM PC compatible I ever used. Sadly, despite almost consistently beating our targets, overnight, everyone had their job descriptions changed, and so had to re-apply for our existing job, I quit, and 5 months later it folded, lucky escape.

Sounds like you've got the ultimate retro Packard Bell going on there, nice case design, over-specced is an understatement, and the Voodoo 3 to boot. Downgrading to Win98SE, I'm assuming for what will be an awesome DOS setup. I don't know why, but I get the feeling you're not a fan of the Packard Bell installation, with it's Navigator and so on, or perhaps that was removed in the Symphony versions. For me, I've only ever used standard OS Win95, 98SE, ME :(and then XP back then, and so it's just the fact that it's something I've never had experience of, and the irony of something that basically consumes all it's resources to make the PC so easy to use, is just so damn difficult to get setup. I'm guessing from your perspective, having worked for them, you must hate it.

OK, I'm curious, especially since I missed that OS, so what's the joke your colleague pulled with the Win2k thing?

I just discovered your post about that machine from 2018, so I'm going to have a read through, it all looks very interesting and nice pictures too. It certainly seems the Netherlands or the US is the place for Packard Bell hardware.

BigDave wrote on 2024-06-13, 18:05:

[...]

Sorry I confused the location, but that's interesting to hear about your experience, and as a student, probably not a bad way to start getting in on a computer company, even if they weren't very good to work for. Then again, who is. Shame about all that documentation, I'd imagine it contained a wealth of useful information, and to be honest, I'm having hard time finding much out there, other than on here, UKT, Nostalgia Mall, and PBPassion, even the WayBack machine really only has stuff for the US Packard Bells, although found some FTP files that could be useful, but that's why I was so keen to contact you.

I'm pretty rusty and have lost contact with former colleagues too I'm afraid.

In the 80s & 90s, I worked in consumer electronics sales, sadly no computers, and switched companies several times, but in the last, around 1993 they eventually got these overpriced crappy Siemens Nixdorf PC EPOS systems in, running on OS2, with tape drive backup. Me and this Asian guy, were the only ones that really understood the computers, and we discovered one of them was a 486DX, offgrid, and running Win 3.11, so used to get in early and load up some games, but that was the first IBM PC compatible I ever used. Sadly, despite almost consistently beating our targets, overnight, everyone had their job descriptions changed, and so had to re-apply for our existing job, I quit, and 5 months later it folded, lucky escape.

Lovely business practices. Still I'm a bit of a sucker - been with a telco for the past two decades 😉

Sounds like you've got the ultimate retro Packard Bell going on there, nice case design, over-specced is an understatement, and the Voodoo 3 to boot. Downgrading to Win98SE, I'm assuming for what will be an awesome DOS setup. I don't know why, but I get the feeling you're not a fan of the Packard Bell installation, with it's Navigator and so on, or perhaps that was removed in the Symphony versions

No, no PB software to be seen 😉

Not building it for DOS though, I have another system (P3-600, multiple ISA slots for sound cards) for that. This is pure Win98SE.

For me, I've only ever used standard OS Win95, 98SE, ME :(and then XP back then, and so it's just the fact that it's something I've never had experience of, and the irony of something that basically consumes all it's resources to make the PC so easy to use, is just so damn difficult to get setup. I'm guessing from your perspective, having worked for them, you must hate it.

Exactly.

My experience was that it just confused end-users more, while also making stuff complicated for people who did actually know how to use a PC.

OK, I'm curious, especially since I missed that OS, so what's the joke your colleague pulled with the Win2k thing?

So there was this "Bora Pro" board which had rev 1 and 2. That was i440ZX/BX with Voodoo3. He convinced me there was a "Bora Pro 2" with Voodoo3 and an AGP slot. And he was a huge Win2k fan. Now Voodoo3+AGP isn't totally crazy - Voodoo3 doesn't actually use AGP features, so it might as well be connected to PCI, which would free up the AGP port for an external card (like the ATI Rage Turbo on the Asus P2B-VM). Except nope, that was never made, but I kept repeating it until he put me out of my misery 😉

I just discovered your post about that machine from 2018, so I'm going to have a read through, it all looks very interesting and nice pictures too. It certainly seems the Netherlands or the US is the place for Packard Bell hardware.

Not really. PB was a lot bigger in UK (sold through Dixons, Currys and PC World), it's just that at this time it was owned by the French branch of a Japanese company (NEC) who coordinated support operations from NL. So instead of opening a branch in UK, they decided to keep it in NL, where only Dixons sold PBs. I just keep my eyes open and pounce on relevant stuff, particularly the MS-6168 (I have 3...)

No, no PB software to be seen 😉

Not building it for DOS though, I have another system (P3-600, multiple ISA slots for sound cards) for that. This is pure Win98SE.

No PB software, you do surprise me 😉
Obviously you would have an entirely different perspective, as you worked for them, and can imagine it must've been very frustrating at times. I find it so interesting that people seem to be so divided over Packard Bell PCs, it's like Marmite, people either love 'em, or hate 'em, no sort of middle ground.

OK, yes it sounds like you've a nice system there covering DOS. Win98Se, well that was a great OS, personally I loved it, it kind of ironed out the issues of the plug & play issues of Win95, still had DOS mode (version 7.0?), and I liked the fact that it could still be a challenge sometimes. So do you have any particular use in mind for that one, specific software? or like me, just for the nostalgia?

Your work colleague was onto something there, no Bora Pro 2, gutting. I read through the thread for your PB Bora Pro board (MSI MS-6168) and all the stability issues you had to resolve, you obviously have better skills than me. It seems to be a pretty amazing board, especially with the Voodoo, and I gotta like that PB case design. You've done a great job, and very smart internally too. I had a Voodoo3 card, I think it was 3500 TV AGP? that came out of Dixons, I just remember it came with this AV peripheral all in purple, with the thickest, heaviest cable you ever did see, quite a strain on the card actually. It was really good compared to the 4mb Creative Permedia 2 card I'd had, but I could never get the TV / capture part to work, so didn't keep it long, shame.

Packard Bell had some very different phases under different ownership in different parts of the world. This system was (well, apart from my souping it up) typical for PB in Europe under NEC ownership. with French engineering (the HQ was in Angers, FR). Apart from bad caps, they were generally good systems in that period, at least as long as you steered clear of the lowest of the low end (SiS 5598 and later i810 systems). The MS-6168 was the last of a line of boards with decent onboard video. Earlier ones were Intel MU440EX ('Maui') and MS-6147 ('Tempest') with ATi Rage Pro.

Oh no! lowest of the low? 🙁 ...my poor Club 40 is one of those FR500 boards with the SIS5598 chipset.
Hey, it can't be all bad it still works, but I know what you mean, definitely a price conscious PC design, and appears to use the old 4x4 case, with just a new front panel. I'm amazed quite honestly considering what it is, and robbing 4mb of it's 32mb RAM (can be set lower in BIOS, depends on resolution I think), that even with all the PB OS add-ons that it's quite nice and responsive.