I don't consider virtual machines an option for running Windows, especially if games are brought into the equation. Even in PCem, the screen seems to redraw at a mere 30-40 fps.

^Hm. Opposite here. Descent (I/II, DOS) runs in 12 to 15 fps on my real vintage hardware, PCem v17 is way faster if I want to.
But I consider 12 fps to be more "cinematic" than, say, 30 or 60 fps.
I once saw a patched version of Star Fox on YouTube also.
About everyone in the comments seemed to have enjoyed it, except me.
I liked the slower fps gameplay of the original.

Edit: What I like about vintage hardware is working with electronics, using a CRT and interacting with physical media.

It's also because of my electronic/radio hobby (I'm an electronic hobbyist and shortwave listener; it's also a kind of "gaming").:
There's quite some reasons to keep old DOS software and PC hardware around.

Say, a satellite prediction software with rotor control circuit, an IC database program, an homebrew interface ("modem") for decoding digital radio signals on shortwave and VHF bands..

I'm also using emulators, though. And VMs.
Due to space limitations I can't leave my vintage equipment being set up permanently all the time.

No i don't but like you said it's part of the fun, like a really wise man once said "what might appear useless like sitting and watching a sport game\observing nature etc. enriches a part of us that a useful action might never be able to fullfill" so at the end it's an enriching experience, building, tinkering, testing games and apps (which per se it's an enriching experience) it's not meaningless and interconnects many disciplines and interests.

I would change question, do I even need virtual machine and my reply: no, I don't think so. Cause setup virtual machine is waste of my time, when original machine is plug & play, install and run without any issues and so with many games. Virtualization ruins the gaming experience. If you're poor enough to afford vintage hardware, do virtualization and be content with little.

For daily usages, old computers aren't really needed. I use them mainly for fun, learning and tinkering.

Regarding virtual machines, that isn't an option for me either.

It all depends on what you want to do. For example I don't know of any modern solution close enough to a real Hercules/CGA and the phosphor decay of those monitors.
I'm pretty sure that for most people this isn't important or even desired, but that's what I want to have.

So my opinion on this is that emulation and VM can achieve most things people want to a very adequate degree, but still not everything.

konc wrote on 2024-06-17, 14:10:

So my opinion on this is that emulation and VM can achieve most things people want to a very adequate degree, but still not everything.

+1

I'm thinking about SCSI interface cards or Firewire/i.Link controllers right now.
They're not being emulated right now. And even if they were, they're not physically available through newer technology.
ISA, Parallel and Serial can be passed-through somehow by using USB adapters of some kind by contrast.

Then there are input devices like Yokes for flight simulators (CH models on DOS etc) or older joysticks with multiple buttons and throttle switches.
They have to be interfaced somehow. Even if emulators had added emulation for them, how to connect physically?
Those Gameport-USB adapter dongles don't work as faithful as they should and homebrew projects by the community need still to be developed.

Edit: Another example. 3D shutter glasses for CRT monitors.
Back in the 90s, there had been ELSA 3D Revelator (Win 9x) and various no-name shutter glasses for serial port (DOS, LCDBIOS; CyberBoy comes to mind).
Unless VR becomes more mainstream/accepted, there's no way to have that 3D experience again (without vintage hardware).

I tried the path suggested by the OP about 20 years ago.
I learned one thing:
Emulation hardware and software changes constantly while the old original machines don't.
That is why I have a preference for the real thing.

No you dont need it per say if you're only after the ability to play game X, in 95% of the cases. I do play some remakes as well because sometimes the original experience with multiple CD switching is not really enjoyable anymore.

But I'm also a romantic, I'm not looking for the best and smartest choice all the time, but I look to recreate a feeling I had when I was younger. Somehow tap into the magic of what it was to game back then. For a few seconds I'm 13 again wasting my summer away.

It's totally meaningless and a waste of time but so is gaming in the first place. Who cares, do what you find enjoyable with your spare time.

ux-3 wrote on 2024-06-17, 14:38:

I tried the path suggested by the OP about 20 years ago. I learned one thing: Emulation hardware and software changes constantl […]
Show full quote

I tried the path suggested by the OP about 20 years ago.
I learned one thing:
Emulation hardware and software changes constantly while the old original machines don't.
That is why I have a preference for the real thing.

I'll second this. I tried so long to play my old games on my modern PC. DOS games were usually easy thanks to DOSBOX. When it came to windows games, I relied on a case by case array of sometimes only partial solutions. Some games had patches that helped them run on Windows 7... then 10... then 11... and so forth. It was a constantly moving goalpost. Some games I used to run in VirtualBox, until VirtualBox removed it's 3D accelerated support for Windows XP. But still, I stuck with the last version with support for a good long while... until something about virtualization changed in Windows 10. I think when I had to install WSL2. Then that version of VirtualBox quit running entirely. Newer versions of it apparently support the type of virtualization WSL2 forces, but then I lose support for 3D acceleration in Windows XP. Lastly there was PCem/86Box which I've never found performant enough. I dabbled in fixing some bugs in 86Box that annoyed me a few years ago related to controller input, but some of the more obnoxious issues I had like mouse lag or reading physical CD-ROMs were a bit beyond my available free time.

I'm old, I have a family and a home to take care of. I no longer have the desire to spent an hour troubleshooting why a game won't run anymore in my hour of free time between when the kid goes to bed and I go to bed. I want it to just work. Currently, a stable of vintage hardware is the only surefire solution. Or at least, it seems more reliable than software solutions, given that sometimes the hardware fails. Less often than the software solutions break out from under me though.

iraito wrote on 2024-06-17, 12:52:

No i don't but like you said it's part of the fun, like a really wise man once said "what might appear useless like sitting and watching a sport game\observing nature etc. enriches a part of us that a useful action might never be able to fullfill" so at the end it's an enriching experience, building, tinkering, testing games and apps (which per se it's an enriching experience) it's not meaningless and interconnects many disciplines and interests.

Gmlb256 wrote on 2024-06-17, 13:40:

For daily usages, old computers aren't really needed. I use them mainly for fun, learning and tinkering.

i think there is definitely a value in the experience of saving, repairing, setting up and using vintage machines - but indeed it isn't really connected to the experience of using software by and large except perhaps for certain characteristics like the example:

konc wrote on 2024-06-17, 14:10:

It all depends on what you want to do. For example I don't know of any modern solution close enough to a real Hercules/CGA and the phosphor decay of those monitors.

MAZter wrote on 2024-06-17, 13:05:

I would change question, do I even need virtual machine and my reply: no, I don't think so. Cause setup virtual machine is waste of my time, when original machine is plug & play, install and run without any issues and so with many games. Virtualization ruins the gaming experience. If you're poor enough to afford vintage hardware, do virtualization and be content with little.

How does virtualization ruin the the gaming experience though? Is it related to the preference for physical things like CRTs?

if a VM plays fine then its about the same as gog isnt it? actually with gog a vm isnt needed anyway

ux-3 wrote on 2024-06-17, 14:38:

I tried the path suggested by the OP about 20 years ago. I learned one thing: Emulation hardware and software changes constantl […]
Show full quote

I tried the path suggested by the OP about 20 years ago.
I learned one thing:
Emulation hardware and software changes constantly while the old original machines don't.
That is why I have a preference for the real thing.

that's a good point - if you have already done the work for a vintage set up then its easier than adapting to changes in emulation and vm software

if you havent done that though, i suspect its easier to not go and get vintage hardware - often cheaper too, a mid range system from 5 years ago is a powerhouse really for these things

hence i'm kind on both paths, i have vintage machines and use them and i also have some modern systems (well, not that modern...) that work just fine with dosbox, gog and so on and where it really don't need to use the vintage machines much at all and if i play a game on 98, xp, dos or in dosbox or windows7/10 on gog its pretty much the same.

Joakim wrote on 2024-06-17, 14:48:

No you dont need it per say if you're only after the ability to play game X, in 95% of the cases. I do play some remakes as well because sometimes the original experience with multiple CD switching is not really enjoyable anymore.

ah that's true - CD's, the scratchiness of CDs, the constant cd reading, the fact that one of the most popular 'crack' types back then was a nocd hack. i guess CDs arent always that nostalgic 😀

Jo22 wrote on 2024-06-17, 12:35:

It's also because of my electronic/radio hobby (I'm an electronic hobbyist and shortwave listener; it's also a kind of "gaming") […]
Show full quote

It's also because of my electronic/radio hobby (I'm an electronic hobbyist and shortwave listener; it's also a kind of "gaming").:
There's quite some reasons to keep old DOS software and PC hardware around.

Say, a satellite prediction software with rotor control circuit, an IC database program, an homebrew interface ("modem") for decoding digital radio signals on shortwave and VHF bands..

I'm also using emulators, though. And VMs.
Due to space limitations I can't leave my vintage equipment being set up permanently all the time.

certainly there is a space saving by concentrating everything onto one machine as much as possible

as aside, you mention SW radio - long in decline sadly, all radio slowly falling to the online world and understandable, but somehow seems a shame and also a slight risk, radio even though it requires power to broadcast can be more independent somehow, while the internet for all its complexity feels more vulnerable to intervention by state or hackers, ai content dominance and so on

iraito wrote on 2024-06-17, 12:52:

No i don't but like you said it's part of the fun, like a really wise man once said "what might appear useless like sitting and watching a sport game\observing nature etc. enriches a part of us that a useful action might never be able to fullfill" so at the end it's an enriching experience, building, tinkering, testing games and apps (which per se it's an enriching experience) it's not meaningless and interconnects many disciplines and interests.

i think there is definitely a value in the experience of saving, repairing, setting up and using vintage machines - but indeed it isn't really connected to the experience of using software by and large except perhaps for certain characteristics like the example:

Oh i don't meant that using old machines is directly and exclusively connected to using old software and experiencing stories through old games, it's just that by using the old machines you are also doing that which is per se a good meaningful thing, but you could do it on an emulator and it would be just as good, maybe i would just add that since you are learning how to repair (soldering etc.), learning more about the history of PC hardware etc. that there's some extra good thing in it.

I do agree that most things can likely be emulated, although the path of emulation may not always be the most straight forward.

For example, years ago when I wanted to play Civilization II, it wouldn't work on my 64-bit OS since it's a 16-bit Windows game. After researching how to emulate a Windows install and run it (esp. lacking a CD drive on my main PC), it actually seemed like less work just to set up a 32-bit Win XP machine to play it.

Need? No, because there are fan-made fixes for most games which make them playable on a modern OS.

But do I want to play my old games on a retro rig? Absolutely. It's feels great to run a game using top of the line hardware (for the time) without needing to worry about compatibility issues. And as others have mentioned, sometimes it's less cumbersome to play an old game on a retro rig, than to put in the extra time and effort required for making it run on a modern system.

When I used to sell bicycles, sometimes people would say "I don't know if I need a bicycle this expensive" and I would counter with "But do you want it? If you want it, and you can afford it, then why talk yourself out of it?"
I enjoy assembling and troubleshooting computers, and I also enjoy repairing motherboards to the degree that I am able to (more than most, but not nearly as well as some). Yes, I get an extra kick out of playing Max Payne on my Soyo Socket A system, and as an added bonus, I don't have to try and limit the frame rate like you need to do with the version on Steam.

It's not simply about being able to run the games. It's about the whole package. Running the game on period correrct/adjecent hardware and OS as God intended is a huge part of the experience.