VOGONS


First post, by hosso77

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Hi all,
I recently got an Arcooda 20139 monitor which supports a very large set of inputs, including 15kHz: I'm happy with it, response time and image quality are impressive.
Mode-X and mode-Y are supported, the only lacks are related to some VGA "tweaked" modes included in some old demos (luminati, ambience, wobble in copper, etc... see LCD monitor VGA compatibility database) that are not supported.
Now, I understand that manufacturers don't spend time on these "nerd" modes and I know that a simple CRT would solve the problem, but I would like to have a modern setup that can support these modes too.
I was leaning towards what I see as the latest in converters, the OSSC PRO:
has anyone tried it with these bizarre 21-bit 100 Hz VGA modes? Are they supported?

Reply 1 of 8, by clb

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Heya,

In the past three years, I have worked extensively with the vga test suite that xjas did an amazing job to collect together in the thread you linked to. By extensive, I mean analysing signal dumps and developing FPGA boards to capture, synchronize and display most of the video modes presented in that suite.

These are really nice demos, and that assembled vgasuite paints a picture that maybe there would somewhere exist that "ultimate" most compatible setup that would support all the different possible modes.

However, I would like to shatter that idea a little bit. Let me summarize my thoughts on some of the different demos:

Ambience + Luminati: These demos share the same effect, namely running at a high refresh rate, and then outputting two different video streams on alternate frames, depending on CRT phosphor persistence to blur them together. These would require > 120 Hz LCD displays to work, but unfortunately on such displays, these demos are expected to still look poor, since the original demo effect required phosphor persistence on the CRT to blur the video frames together. Modern LCD display pixel switching speed is too high quality to reproduce this effect like it used to be.

Timeless (56Hz): this demo increases the number of vertical scanlines per frame in Mode 13h from default 449 lines to 561 lines, spending that time in video blank. The net effect is to reduce the video refresh rate from 70Hz down to 56Hz. Good scalers and LCD monitors should have no problems with this mode.

Dowhackado: A custom 320x256 pixels @ 55 Hz video mode. Should pose no problems to any good scaler.

Kukoo 2: This demo uses a custom 397x557 @ 55Hz px video mode. Beyond this custom mode, which should be easy to support, the main color "magic" of this demo is done on the VGA adapter end, so all scalers and CRTs/LCDs will be compatible with the palette stuff that happens there. (they don't "see" that part at all, as it happens earlier in the VGA card)

Copper wobble: This demo radically abuses the VGA adapter by reprogramming the video geometry on the fly on every scanline. This behavior is not just problematic on many CRTs of the time, or video converters, but absolutely problematic already on different VGA adapters. There is no standard on what should happen with the different operations they do, and the demo probably worked on only a very specific adapter + CRT combo that was compatible with their very specific timings. It could even be harmful and damage other CRTs. There is no other piece of software or even demoscene demo out there that would use this same functionality, so it is not like this demo would represent a sensible "class" of functionality or some kind of feature compatibility that a good CRT/scaler/LCD should have. As result, it would be a stretch to call what Copper does even a "video mode" - it was just a radical abuse of VGA adapter parameters that worked on a particular VGA adapter + CRT combo timings at the time. Overall, it is best to ignore that this piece of software ever existed. (this may be a bit harsh to write, though it of course was a fantastic hack, but what they do is at odds with other more interesting goals of stable video signal synchronization in a scaler device, and nothing else needs this functionality beyond this one demo.. placing it on a pedestal would be counterproductive)

Sunflower: This demo is just standard video modes: 640x480 and 320x200.

Yo and Impulse Tracker: Both are 640x400 @ 70 Hz. This is a tiny tweak on standard 320x200, should be a very compatible video mode.

Cubic Player: standard 720x400 text mode.

Tweak, PAL-on-VGA and NTSC-on-VGA: Very compatible video modes as well with many LCDs. If e.g. Mode-X is supported, I'd expect these to be quite well supported as well.

CRT Terminator Digital VGA Feature Card ISA DV1000 supports all these video modes, with the exception of capping Ambience + Luminati video output to 75 Hz max (the reason for this is artificial, since I haven't found a LCD display that would support >75Hz refresh rate on DVI-D compatible signal), and not synchronizing to the Copper wobble: instead, it regards it more important to assume stable video geometry to help fast video syncing and signal stability.

Reply 2 of 8, by hosso77

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Thank you clb for the detailed answer.
Do you have, by chance, un updated link for xjas testing suite? (Up to now I just made partial testing).

I'm currently working on two retro setups:
- a "real" retro, 486 VLB with a CRT/Hansol Mazellan 500A, which usually supports tweaked modes (no adapter needed);
- a "modern" pentium M (FX5900 and VoodooII SLI) with the Arcooda 20139 Monitor, which lacks compatibility with the most tricky demos.
I've spent a lot of time on this second setup making it a sort of "time machine", installing all Microsoft OS from Dos 3.3 up to XP in a multiboot environment, throttling the CPU, etc...
Unfortunately, I've no more empty ISA slots (all fitted with soundcards) nor VGA header, so the CRT Terminator Digital VGA Feature Card ISA DV1000 looks not installable...

Reply 3 of 8, by ahyeadude

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Does this monitor support 70hz VGA modes without frameskip?

Reply 4 of 8, by clb

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hosso77 wrote on 2024-11-11, 21:43:

Thank you clb for the detailed answer.
Do you have, by chance, un updated link for xjas testing suite? (Up to now I just made partial testing).

Hey, thanks to ahyeadude for commenting. I meant to reply but then forgot about it.

It looks like I do still have the original vgasuite.iso.zip download in my Downloads folder. So I reuploaded it now to my fileserver at http://oummg.com/dump/vgasuite.iso.zip

It should be the original bits. Note that the original format seems to have been an ISO image to burn on a CD. I didn't much care about that, so I used 7-zip on Windows to "unzip" that ISO file (just like unzipping a .zip file), and then just copied those demos to a CF card that I use to emulate a hard drive.

hosso77 wrote on 2024-11-11, 21:43:

Unfortunately, I've no more empty ISA slots (all fitted with soundcards) nor VGA header, so the CRT Terminator Digital VGA Feature Card ISA DV1000 looks not installable...

Bummer 😒 How many sound cards is too many? 😁

Reply 5 of 8, by clb

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ahyeadude wrote on 2024-11-25, 20:10:

Does this monitor support 70hz VGA modes without frameskip?

I wonder which monitor you are referring to?

hosso77 mentioned two different CRT monitors, Hansol Mazellan 500A and Arcooda 20139. Since those are CRT monitors, they definitely support 70Hz VGA modes without frameskip.

CRT Terminator (not a monitor, but an ISA add-on card that provides digital video output from a DOS PC) does also support 70Hz video without frameskip. It supports up to 75 Hz. Whatever output (HDMI capture or LCD display) it is connected to will also have to support 70Hz. For example the ASUS PA248QV is a LCD monitor that supports up to 1920x1200 @ 75Hz.

Reply 6 of 8, by ahyeadude

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clb wrote on 2024-11-26, 00:04:
I wonder which monitor you are referring to? […]
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ahyeadude wrote on 2024-11-25, 20:10:

Does this monitor support 70hz VGA modes without frameskip?

I wonder which monitor you are referring to?

hosso77 mentioned two different CRT monitors, Hansol Mazellan 500A and Arcooda 20139. Since those are CRT monitors, they definitely support 70Hz VGA modes without frameskip.

CRT Terminator (not a monitor, but an ISA add-on card that provides digital video output from a DOS PC) does also support 70Hz video without frameskip. It supports up to 75 Hz. Whatever output (HDMI capture or LCD display) it is connected to will also have to support 70Hz. For example the ASUS PA248QV is a LCD monitor that supports up to 1920x1200 @ 75Hz.

Sorry, yea the Arcooda 20139 is a newer LCD panel from LG I believe. It's been marketed as a retro CRT replacement. I think the Checkmate monitor folks have also considered it as panel for their monitor too.

Reply 7 of 8, by clb

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Oh right, gotcha. Yeah, would be interesting to see a short review of Arcooda, haven't seen that before.

Reply 8 of 8, by hosso77

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ahyeadude wrote on 2024-11-25, 20:10:

Does this monitor support 70hz VGA modes without frameskip?

Hi, sorry for the terrible delay in replying. I confirm that it supports 70Hz in DOS mode, however only in classic modes. Forget about hooking things like luminati or dowhackado without a scaler.
I recently bought a retrotink 4k and by pairing them you can get great results but the expense is significant! By forcing the HDMI up to 75Hz the monitor recognizes and hooks without frameskip, you can go above (up to 80Hz) but the curious thing is that above 75Hz a message of unsupported mode appears even though the images are still visible (I specify that I have firmware version 32 on the monitor).
The limit of the pair is that the Retrotink does not accept 1600x1200 at 70Hz as input, only at 60Hz; to maintain 70Hz you have to lower the input resolution, however for the DOS part it is more than enough (you can go up to 1280x1024 at 70Hz as input).
Without Retrotink I had tried to modify EDID without much success to force the DVI output of my FX5900 to 70Hz, but I gave up, partly out of laziness, partly because I'm more interested in the VGA output (both for passthrough with the Voodoo II and for the "analog" tweaked modes)