You are probably doing nothing wrong at all.

Midi in Dos does not work in games that run in conventional memory, only Dos4gw titles.
You can generally run the Conventional memory titles via Win95 or Win98 though and Midi
should work. Xwing is a good example of this, also Doom.

In many ways, the AWE64 is less a DOS sound device than a Windows sound device. This is a prime illustrative example.

Yea you aren't missing anything. What I use is external MIDI devices (Roland and Yamaha), these are a great addition to the AWE64 and then you are set for DOS.

AWE rom is bad for GM anyway. As for GM emulation in DOS - it's lame on AWE. Some people said NMI is needed to work better on some PC to have better this emulation.
To get good MIDI from AWE you need additional RAM on card and soundfonts, and hence to run DOS games in DOS box of Win9x.
As you state about "Ultimate DOS gaming" I'll notice, that FM sound on AWE64 is lame too as it's just CQM emulation. CQM not only sounds worse than OPL, but sometimes it plays totally wrong. Clear example of this is in Dune tune on 0:10. The worst case of wrong sound is in Monkey island on ATI Stereo F/X there, in case you'll wish to laugh a little.

Imperious wrote:

Midi in Dos does not work in games that run in conventional memory, only Dos4gw titles.
You can generally run the Conventional memory titles via Win95 or Win98 though and Midi
should work. Xwing is a good example of this, also Doom.

I actually found it to be the other way around - real mode games (eg Monkey Island) work OK with AWEUTIL and protected-mode games have issues.
In any case the GM and MT-32 emulation is pretty rubbish. I would only use the AWE64 synth for game with native support.
As other mentioned AWE64 is a great bug-free MIDI host for an external module.

What Games exaktly do you have MIDI Problems with ?
i also run Ultima Underworld and other early RPGs and have encountered no Problems at all.

matze79 wrote:

What Games exaktly do you have MIDI Problems with ? i also run Ultima Underworld and other early RPGs and have encountered no Problems at all.

Besides games, their versions and other software in RAM, this may depend also on hardware he is using. Newer systems may to have more issues. AWE emulation was designed in 486 times, max early Pentiums. BIOS settings, MB chipset, PCI bus, etc. - many options wich were not common in 1994 and have chances to reduce compatibility.

Imperious wrote:

You are probably doing nothing wrong at all.

gdjacobs wrote:

In many ways, the AWE64 is less a DOS sound device than a Windows sound device. This is a prime illustrative example.

PhilsComputerLab wrote:

Yea you aren't missing anything.

Tertz wrote:

AWE rom is bad for GM anyway. As for GM emulation in DOS - it's lame on AWE.

bjt wrote:

In any case the GM and MT-32 emulation is pretty rubbish.

Darn. I guess that's just the way it is... does an SB16, for example, have better MIDI support? Ideally I just want to have one sound card, and dispense with external MIDI devices since I'm using the port for my joystick.

Tertz wrote:

As you state about "Ultimate DOS gaming" I'll notice, that FM sound on AWE64 is lame too as it's just CQM emulation. CQM not only sounds worse than OPL, but sometimes it plays totally wrong.

You're exactly right. I didn't know about this when I got the AWE64, but after reading up on it and testing it out for myself I decided real OPL3 is far superior. So I'm just waiting around for another card - maybe a real SB16 😀 I changed my signature to actually reflect my system 😉

matze79 wrote:

What Games exaktly do you have MIDI Problems with ?

Tertz wrote:

Besides games, this may depend also on hardware he is using. Newer systems may to have more issues. AWE emulation was designed in 486 times, max early Pentiums.

OK, here's my system:

Delhi-III Socket 7 MB
P54C 80502 Pentium 100 MHz
ATI Rage IIc video (onboard, yes I know that's ridiculous for DOS stuff, especially Keen 😵 )
SB AWE64 (go figure)

And the games I've tried:

Hocus Pocus (Runs music on menu screen, hangs on first level)
Doom (Intermittent - has trouble doing anything)
KGE4 (a game engine I made which has MIDI support - hangs on second level)
Midget (a MIDI sequencer - refuses to start)

All of those above I've tried in Windows 98 and they work perfectly, as you all mentioned before.

So I'm wondering: If I got an SB16 or compatible card, would that have everything I need, i.e.:

Good digital sound
Real OPL3
Decent MIDI support without external box

Thanks for all the help, guys 😁

keenmaster486 wrote:

So I'm wondering: If I got an SB16 or compatible card, would that have everything I need Good digital sound Real OPL3 Decent MID […]
Show full quote

So I'm wondering: If I got an SB16 or compatible card, would that have everything I need
Good digital sound
Real OPL3
Decent MIDI support without external box

AWE/SB32 with ram+OPL, good soundfonts + Win9x. But: 1) you may get hanging notes on some models, 2) some DOS games may to have issues with DOS box of Win9x.

keenmaster486 wrote:

OK, here's my system: […]
Show full quote

OK, here's my system:

Delhi-III Socket 7 MB
P54C 80502 Pentium 100 MHz
ATI Rage IIc video (onboard, yes I know that's ridiculous for DOS stuff, especially Keen 😵 )
SB AWE64 (go figure)

And the games I've tried:

Hocus Pocus (Runs music on menu screen, hangs on first level)
Doom (Intermittent - has trouble doing anything)
KGE4 (a game engine I made which has MIDI support - hangs on second level)
Midget (a MIDI sequencer - refuses to start)

All of those above I've tried in Windows 98 and they work perfectly, as you all mentioned before.

So I'm wondering: If I got an SB16 or compatible card, would that have everything I need, i.e.:

Good digital sound
Real OPL3
Decent MIDI support without external box

Thanks for all the help, guys 😁

If you're running pure dos maybe you should get an Adician 32 plus and a Dream Blaster S1 internal synth module. Unfortunately no SB16 emualtion for digitized sound, just SB PRO.

At least your game engine works with external synths connected to a SB32 CT3670 using "sbmidi /g /2". 😀

keenmaster486 wrote:

Darn. I guess that's just the way it is... does an SB16, for example, have better MIDI support?

Some clarification is in order. It depends on what you mean by "MIDI support". As far as built-in MIDI emulation, then the SB16 has no such support at all.

The AWE32/64 cards have several different ways of playing MIDI:

1. Via the built-in ROM soundbank (EMU8000, port 620). This works only in games that have specific AWE support.
2. Via the MIDI emulation (port 330, activated by AWEUTIL /EM switch). As you observed, it tends to be buggy, especially in pure DOS.
3. Via an external device connected to the MIDI port (port 330). This usually works flawlessly, as Phil mentioned, and then you are limited only by the external device itself.
4. Via OPL3-style FM synthesis (port 388)

Out of these, the SB16 supports only (3) and (4). (3) tends to work well on a SB16, except some (most) versions have the hanging note bug in specific games. (4) generally works quite well, and there is a chance to get a genuine OPL3 chip, which is not the case for an AWE64.

keenmaster486 wrote:

Ideally I just want to have one sound card, and dispense with external MIDI devices since I'm using the port for my joystick.

Then as far as the Creative lineup is concerned, an AWE card is still your best bet, and limit yourself to FM/AWE MIDI in DOS, or RAM+soundfonts in Windows, as Tertz mentioned. There may be better solutions from other soundcard vendors, but I am not sufficiently familiar with those, unfortunately.

keenmaster486 wrote:

Tertz wrote:

As you state about "Ultimate DOS gaming" I'll notice, that FM sound on AWE64 is lame too as it's just CQM emulation. CQM not only sounds worse than OPL, but sometimes it plays totally wrong.

You're exactly right. I didn't know about this when I got the AWE64, but after reading up on it and testing it out for myself I decided real OPL3 is far superior.

This, IMO, tends to be greatly exaggerated. CQM sounds a bit worse (often not necessarily "worse", as just "different"), and the cases where it plays totally wrong are very few. I've listened to most the recordings in the "grand OPL comparison" thread here, and this is what my ears heard. Most likely some people have better / more sensitive ears, but given that we are talking about FM synthesis which is, in itself, "lame", I'd say that the maximum difference in quality one can expect is capped.

And overall, I would prefer to have a slightly lower quality FM implementation (CQM) together with AWE capabilities (which, for the games that support it, tend to sound much better than FM), rather than a slightly higher quality FM (true OPL3).

Tertz wrote:

AWE/SB32 with ram+OPL, good soundfonts + Win9x. But: 1) you may get hanging notes on some models,

Is that really true? I thought that the hanging note bug only affects external MIDI (MPU-401 interface).

keenmaster486 wrote:

Ideally I just want to have one sound card, and dispense with external MIDI devices since I'm using the port for my joystick.

You can get gameport midi adaptors that still provide a passthrough to connect a joystick too 😀

dr_st wrote:

and the cases where it plays totally wrong are very few.

I doubt there is a statistics or thorough research in how much games it has serious issues similar to what I've pointed in Dune.
As for a "bit worse", - it's not a bit in direct comparision in my taste, - it sounds noticably not as was intended by a composer and makes the music less pleasant. Having examples, anyone may do direct comparision and decide himself, as the op seems did. Without direct comparision it's hard to understand this, especially in case of cheap table acoustics.

but given that we are talking about FM synthesis which is, in itself, "lame"

FM synthesis is an instrument and it was used in professional music too. Lame may to be only music made with it. You may search for chiptunes and this will help you understand this, in case you was not lucky to get pleasure in games with it.
Also when the music is done for one instrument and then played without adoptation on other (like emulation of CQM does) - you get noticably worse or just lame results.

which, for the games that support it, tend to sound much better than FM

There are not so many games with native AWE support as it appeared too late (1994-...) so mostly you get lame FM and lame GM (in case you have no >=4 Mb RAM on the card).

slightly higher quality FM (true OPL3)

CQM disfigures a music. I may understand your bad relation to FM if you mostly heard CQM mess.

dr_st wrote:

Tertz wrote:

AWE/SB32 with ram+OPL, good soundfonts + Win9x. But: 1) you may get hanging notes on some models,

Is that really true? I thought that the hanging note bug only affects external MIDI (MPU-401 interface).

Seems like on internal EMU too.

Tertz wrote:

I doubt there is a statistics or thorough research in how much games it has serious issues similar to what I've pointed in Dune. […]
Show full quote

dr_st wrote:

and the cases where it plays totally wrong are very few.

I doubt there is a statistics or thorough research in how much games it has serious issues similar to what I've pointed in Dune.
As for a "bit worse", - it's not a bit in direct comparision in my taste, - it sounds noticably not as was intended by a composer and makes the music less pleasant. Having examples, anyone may do direct comparision and decide himself, as the op seems did. Without direct comparision it's hard to understand this, especially in case of cheap table acoustics.

but given that we are talking about FM synthesis which is, in itself, "lame"

FM synthesis is an instrument and it was used in professional music too. Lame may to be only music made with it. You may search for chiptunes and this will help you understand this, in case you was not lucky to get pleasure in games with it.
Also when the music is done for one instrument and then played without adoptation on other (like emulation of CQM does) - you get noticably worse or just lame results.

which, for the games that support it, tend to sound much better than FM

There are not so many games with native AWE support as it appeared too late (1994-...) so mostly you get lame FM and lame GM (in case you have no >=4 Mb RAM on the card).

slightly higher quality FM (true OPL3)

CQM disfigures a music. I may understand your bad relation to FM if you mostly heard CQM mess.

dr_st wrote:

Tertz wrote:

AWE/SB32 with ram+OPL, good soundfonts + Win9x. But: 1) you may get hanging notes on some models,

Is that really true? I thought that the hanging note bug only affects external MIDI (MPU-401 interface).

Seems like on internal EMU too.

If CQM would be as bad as you make it sound no-one would have bought the AWE64 cards. It sounds a bit different and some poeple might not like it when compared to a real OPL3 but I think most people would not even be able to tell the difference when doing a blind test.

I get this from reading old Vogons threads on the topic where knowledgeable members that should be able to tell the difference accepted the CQM synthesis as a real OPL3 when they thought some Sound Blaster model had a real OPL3 when it in fact did not.

I prefer a real OPL3 but Im not at all sure I would be able to tell if tune is played using CQM or a real OPL3 if I cant listen to both one after another and even then Im not sure I always would get it right if it was a blind test.

When listening to comparisons I always think Yammaha GM modules sound muffled and bland compared to Roland modules but when I only listen to a Yammaha module I think it sounds fine.

Skyscraper wrote:

If CQM would be as bad as you make it sound no-one would have bought the AWE64 cards.

In past there were problems like: 1) many ones did not know what CQM is and that it may sound worse and very wrongly, 2) most people did not do or even had no ways for direct comparision, 3) people used bad table acoustics to clearly notice the bad difference, especialy with reverb/echos on, 4) many ones did not care much about FM sound quality in gaming.
Today people use AWE because of (2), also: a) they are less noisy than SB16, b) have no hanging notes, + (4), for somes (3). Someones like that AWE with RAM like Gold may to have not bad GM in Win9x, and some may like there were a few games with direct AWE support. But I think the ones who want good GM will buy something else today.
Sellers. As CQM cards, including AWE, probably are easier to find than model with OPL. On local market I may easily find AWE64 value by simple search for $10 with shipping, while to find model with OPL needs more efforts. Many sellers don't write models numbers at all and you need to watch their photos, wich sometimes have no what you need, to ask are those photos made from the card they are selling here.

I prefer a real OPL3 but Im not at all sure I would be able to tell if tune is played using CQM or a real OPL3

The most important thing is that during direct comparision the music made for OPL and played on OPL is significantly more pleasant than on CQM, at least for me. I hear the bad difference of that examples clearly in cheap $30 headphones+foobar2000+X-Fi card in bitmatch mode.
Secondary - issues of CQM, it's not 100% compatible what is seen in Dune, and as I tried only a couple of tunes to find the evident issue this may to be not rare situation.
Besides worse music and issues, the other thing to notice the difference is CQM's "metallic" sound.
So I'm sure you are able to notice the difference and that's why you may prefer OPL.

I always would get it right if it was a blind test

It's not hard to try a blind test with that examples (or record music in your favorite games, just switch off AWEs posteffects and use correct method). Find a "DJ" and then decide wich music is more pleasant while other has more wrong and unpleasant elements; wich music has more metallic sounding. I think in most cases you'll understand where CQM was used.

Tertz wrote:

In past there were problems like: 1) many ones did not know what CQM is and that it may sound worse and very wrongly, 2) most pe […]
Show full quote

Skyscraper wrote:

If CQM would be as bad as you make it sound no-one would have bought the AWE64 cards.

In past there were problems like: 1) many ones did not know what CQM is and that it may sound worse and very wrongly, 2) most people did not do or even had no ways for direct comparision, 3) people used bad table acoustics to clearly notice the bad difference, especialy with reverb/echos on, 4) many ones did not care much about FM sound quality in gaming.
Today people use AWE because of (2), also: a) they are less noisy than SB16, b) have no hanging notes, + (4), for somes (3). Someones like that AWE with RAM like Gold may to have not bad GM in Win9x, and some may like there were a few games with direct AWE support. But I think the ones who want good GM will buy something else today.
Sellers. As CQM cards, including AWE, probably are easier to find than model with OPL. On local market I may easily find AWE64 value by simple search for $10 with shipping, while to find model with OPL needs more efforts. Many sellers don't write models numbers at all and you need to watch their photos, wich sometimes have no what you need, to ask are those photos made from the card they are selling here.

I prefer a real OPL3 but Im not at all sure I would be able to tell if tune is played using CQM or a real OPL3

The most important thing is that during direct comparision the music made for OPL and played on OPL is significantly more pleasant than on CQM, at least for me. I hear the bad difference of that examples clearly in cheap $30 headphones+foobar2000+X-Fi card in bitmatch mode.
Secondary - issues of CQM, it's not 100% compatible what is seen in Dune, and as I tried only a couple of tunes to find the evident issue this may to be not rare situation.
Besides worse music and issues, the other thing to notice the difference is CQM's "metallic" sound.
So I'm sure you are able to notice the difference and that's why you may prefer OPL.

I always would get it right if it was a blind test

It's not hard to try a blind test with that examples (or record music in your favorite games, just switch off AWEs posteffects and use correct method). Find a "DJ" and then decide wich music is more pleasant while other has more unpleasant elements; wich music has more metallic sounding. I think in most cases you'll understand where CQM was used.

As an audio enthusiast I'm somewhat sceptical of non blind direct comparisons between amplifiers, cd players, cables and other gear, the mind can play powerful tricks. I agree that the CQM synthesis often sounds "sharper", "harder" and more "metallic" compared to a real OPL3 but Im not so sure the difference is enough to matter for most people. Perhaps adding some noise making it more like an old CT17xx Sound Blaster 16 would lessen the difference even more. 😉

Given that the first computers I ever experienced were unbranded Pentium 1's running WIndows 95, most of them either had a budget Sound Blaster Vibra 16 (eg. CT4180), or an ESS card of some sort.

I was perfectly happy with both CQM and ESFM, because I had no idea that they were clones of OPL3, in fact, I had no idea what terms like OPL3, CQM or ESFM even meant. They sounded perfectly adequate to me in games like Duke Nukem, Doom and other popular DOS games of the time. Even Midi in Windows games like Road Rash, Full Tilt! and Al Unser Jr Arcade Racing sounded just fine to my ear.

When I got my first AWE64 card, I was absolutely blown away by it. The the built in General Midi, sounded awesome compared to FM synthesis. I used to spend hours listening to midi files with that card. I absolutely loved it.

In later years I got a Sound Blaster Vibra 128 (Ensoniq ES1371). This is still one of my favourites in terms of its midi synth. DOS compatibility on those cards are a bad joke though.

Anyway, my point is, neither CQM nor ESFM are terrible alternatives to OPL3, as long as you don't try to scrutize every note. The default GM on the AWE 64 is not the best either, but still far better than no GM at all.

Tertz wrote:

I doubt there is a statistics or thorough research in how much games it has serious issues similar to what I've pointed in Dune.
As for a "bit worse", - it's not a bit in direct comparision in my taste, - it sounds noticably not as was intended by a composer and makes the music less pleasant. Having examples, anyone may do direct comparision and decide himself, as the op seems did.

As I had said - I have listened to the recordings that were presented in the OPL comparison thread in this very forum. While I could hear differences, in no case did they seem very significant, and in some cases I couldn't even decide which is better.

If there exist tunes which better demonstrate that the difference can be as big as you claim, I would like to hear them.

Tertz wrote:

Without direct comparision it's hard to understand this, especially in case of cheap table acoustics.

Well, cheap table acoustics is what the average gamer had at the time, I'd imagine. I started with very cheap ones, and eventually got into the mid-range. I imagine folks with good enough acoustics would also not be satsfied with OPL3 synthesis or any of its clones, and would invest into one of the Roland solutions, or GUS.

Tertz wrote:

FM synthesis is an instrument and it was used in professional music too. Lame may to be only music made with it. You may search for chiptunes and this will help you understand this, in case you was not lucky to get pleasure in games with it.

I did enjoy MIDI music quite a bit. With OPL, ESFM and CQM. I still enjoy it here and there, but I cannot deny that if a game supports AWE, or GUS, or Roland - it will in most cases sound far better with those, than with OPL. Not to mention actual recorded music (CD Audio, uncompressed PCM, or even heavily compressed things like MP3/OGG).

Tertz wrote:

There are not so many games with native AWE support as it appeared too late (1994-...) so mostly you get lame FM and lame GM (in case you have no >=4 Mb RAM on the card).

There are not so many games, it's true, but still enough of them out there to make a difference. Thus, I do feel you are somewhat exaggerating the disadvantages, and somewhat downplaying the advantages, but I guess it's to each his own.

I should mention that Adlib Trackers work best on genuine OPL3 hardware. CQM, ESFM and some other clones, tend to have a lot of missing notes.