haker120 wrote on 2022-07-12, 18:54:

I have following components: Mobo: ASUS TX97-XE (V3.x) Processor: Intel Pentium 233MMX RAM: 256MB Graphic 1: S3 Trio64V+ 2MB Gra […]
Show full quote

I have following components:
Mobo: ASUS TX97-XE (V3.x)
Processor: Intel Pentium 233MMX
RAM: 256MB
Graphic 1: S3 Trio64V+ 2MB
Graphic 2: Voodoo 1

I don't think the rest of components matter, PSU is 250W Chieftec so that's overkill for anything in that meaning. 😁 So, what good card can I replace with my S3 Trio? 2MB is too less for me, and maybe I should replace processor as well?

Any ideas welcome. 😀

I mean it depends what you want to do with it but PCI S3 Trio cards tend to be about as compatible as you can get when it comes to dos gaming.
For windows and stuff alternatives could be some kind of Matrox card like a millennium or mystique , or you could get a Tseng labs et6000 with 4mb of vram as well but they can be somewhat pricey and they seem a bit overrated.
I'm assuming 2d/3d combo cards still work with a Voodoo so maybe a TNT2 PCI could be an option since that has like 32mb of vram?

And this is advice I was looking for, hopefully other people will propose something else. 😀

Other than question of what you want to do with the PC, there is the question of why 2MB is not enough for your needs, and also what other limitations do you experience with your current hardware .

If you like your S3 card but just want access to higher 2D resolutions with more colours, an S3 Virge variant could be an option . However, if that is the case, do take into consideration that the cheaper Virge variants, like the 325, had either insufficient internal bandwidth and or a limited RAMDAC to do even 1024x768 in 24-bit color at 60Hz and were limited in refresh rate at higher resolutions .

Trident ProVidia 9685. Look for the 4MB versions; 1 or 2 is standard. I just bought one myself with TV-out and 2MB upgrade modules. I love this card!

Crisp 2D, excellent DOS compatibility, and ZERO Direct3D support (only DirectDraw); great companion for a Voodoo, which is where it is going in my Pentium II 300MHz Klamath build. Plus, it's just plain cool looking with the upgrades piled high.

http://vgamuseum.info/index.php/component/k2/ … nt-providia9685 for more information.

Here are other options (including the 9685) a fellow member tested, also, on a Pentium 120MHz:

bunch of pci/isa video card benchmarks

What I need? It's simple, Win95 to be drawn at higher resolutions in 32bit mode colors plus some features that Voodoo 1 isn't able to achieve like D3D games. 😀

I was looking at Matrox G450 but I didn't find any info if it's combo 2D+3D except it has DDR1 32MB RAM.

And the most important: for 2D DOS titles, no matter DOS Window or DOS mode to get higher resolutions as well, for 3D games either combo card with good DX compatibility and Glide titles on Voodoo 1 4MB. 😁

Imho considering the Voodoo card I'd go anyway for a Matrox card to have the strongest and best VGA output going into the VGA input of the accelerator. Beside using CRT or LCD monitors the Matrox cards had one of (if not) the best results in such cable overaly logics like MPEG accelerator cards too. Not that other cards were not good too but at that time it was still common to actually see VGA quality difference from card to card. Maybe the cheaper version that can be found.

The G450 card is a much later and full accelerator both 2D/3D Direct3D and OpenGL (and faster than the Voodoo). While having a very good VGA native output, I'd not use it into such old configuration with a P-233 cpu but maybe with a late Pentium II or even a Pentium III. Also the PCI version should have a PCI bridge chip on board which is another variable to add into such old config that can be avoided simply choosing another card.

So what card then? 😀

TNT2 - too expensive
S3 Virge - I remember someone was dissuade it and I'm not sure it supports higher resolutions
Trident ProVidia 9685 - unobtainable here and these available are either VLB or too slow or too expensive xD
Matroxes - too many to choose, all either 16 or 32MB which is good too me
Matrox G450 - why is it bad that it has PCI bridge chip? It's decently priced here and easily obtainable so?

Maybe Rage Pro 8MB? Easy to obtain, Very good DOS compatibility etc. 🤣

Just an opinion of course.. the Voodoo card should work ok in time correct Direct3D and OpenGL games with some few incompatibilities but still better than any early 3D accelerators. The Rage Pro/XL series of card might have some problems into driver/games compatibility but it's a good choice if can be found a time correct well built card. The modern ones that are built seems that can work just like they can't depending on the mainboard PCI voltage compatibility or even the video card itself might not work itself if it's not tested before. I'm not also sure about the VGA output quality of these last modern PCB cheaper versions.
The G450 PCI might work but I suppose it must be checked the PCI version compatibility of the card and about the PCI bridge chip, from the similar solutions it might work well but also introducing a variable in the middle of the connection which is not necessary considering other PCI native cards. Maybe someone that tried it can say more but I've tested faster cards with not native PCI connection and not exactly a time correct solution or fast gaming choice. Anyway with such modern card the Voodoo card has not many points of being installed beside the Glide API compatibility.
If the goal is to just have a 2D PCI card without a quality oriented target or fast D3D primary card acceleration, even the S3 ones were ok sometimes having a not great VGA analog signal (depending on the PCB brand). But also many Cirrus Logic or Trident card but still most were low end cards ok for a generic 2D accelerator but less if the goal is to build an high end high quality expensive retro machine.

If quality and time correct are both important factors, I'd use a Matrox Millennium or Mystique PCI maybe reading some old discussions in the forum or reviews about them. The second was a early game oriented 3D accelerator but it'll be never used anyway for that while they both were considered high quality 2D accelerators. But I can't say about MSDOS game compatibility which I'd wait for more opinions on this subject. 😀

The more I read the less I know what to choose. 😁

Would be nice to have 'the best' possible 2D or combo card for this particular motherboard but now I'm honestly lost. 😀

I know it's not easy because it depends on what is the goal of the machine. 😀
If to recreate a time correct (as usual many prefer obviously to build a machine that has components balanced for that period without too much modern or old components that would introduce more problems sometimes) or instead to build a generic "just working" machine with whatever cards can be found. Also it depends on which game will be played (maybe a video card might not be compatible with few titles and be compatible with most others).

Usually (just an opinion for what it matter 😀 ) I prefer the classic time correct machine option. A Pentium MMX 233 has not much CPU/FPU speed in a time correct mainboard where PCI bus is the only fastest bus (beside adding a primary AGP bus which make the Voodoo1 card more pointless) I'd use something like a Matrox time correct PCI card with a Voodoo1/2 accelerator (but no ideas on MSDOS compatibility depending on which game is needed it might not work or maybe) or maybe a single 2D/3D accelerator like a Riva 128 PCI or a Rage Pro/XL PCI card where its 3D speed will be anyway slower than the AGP version from the last tests I did.

If the Voodoo1 card instead is there to be the ONLY 3d accelerator well there's no point of installing a too much modern faster primary "2D/3D" card that may be faster than the Voodoo itself and CPU limited too. So beside the game compatibility that need to be considered on which single game title, it really depends on many choices also some 2D cards are more expensive than others.

I honestly don't pay attention at 'correct time' for hardware, the thing is to be easy to use and not to bottlenecked too much. Voodoo 1 stays for glide games but I wouldn't mind some titles running correctly with D3D combo card that doesn't break dos compatibility. 😁

Well on the expensive side there're the later PCI 3dfx single board cards (Banshee/Voodoo3 PCI) that would help a lot that P-233 cpu but expensive and still I never fully tested msdos games with such modern video cards.
If time correct is not a problem, I suppose the factor to consider are PCI compatibility and CPU driver weight when using too much modern video cards and also the msdos game compatibility might be different but as said I don't care a lot about older games which I leave to a time correct 80386/486 machine. 😀

After the 2000 period even using a PCI less common video card of more modern GPU might still need some heavy driver packages not exactly great on a P-233. On the time correct period I was eventually also thinking to a S3 Trio3D PCI which may not be a bad cheap card (on the 2D side), there're experts here that may say more about it.

Great PCI Direct3D cards are tougher to find... REALLY tough... at least on eBay. You just have to keep your eyes open and monitoring constantly.

If one of your goals is excellent DOS, you do NOT want any ATI or Matrox cards. If you DO need 3D, then Cirrus Logic is also out. The later SiS Xabre and Trident Blade3D T16 (and related versions) are pretty good but could be hard to find, even more so at a good price. Most of the S3 Savages might do the trick, but same problem as Trident/SiS.

You should be able to get just about ANY Pre-GeForce or GeForce (MX up through the FX series are good) to meet your needs in this build.

If not, then your best bet is to pair a Voodoo3 with the Voodoo1.

Otherwise, consider upgrading to an LX/BX chipset (or Via Apollo Pro+) based system. You'll be era appropriate and can still obtain cheap AGP cards with great 3D and DOS support (except ATI and Matrox, of course).

Or you can contact "Radical Vision" here. He seems to know a lot of dumb people who sells him stuff for basically nothing.

Meatball wrote on 2022-07-13, 13:40:

Great PCI cards are tougher to find... REALLY tough... at least on eBay. You just have to keep your eyes open and monitoring con […]
Show full quote

Great PCI cards are tougher to find... REALLY tough... at least on eBay. You just have to keep your eyes open and monitoring constantly.

If one of your goals is excellent DOS, you do NOT want any ATI or Matrox cards. If you DO need 3D, then Cirrus Logic is also out. The later SiS Xabre and Trident Blade3D T16 (and related versions) are pretty good but could be hard to find, even more so at a good price. Most of the S3 Savages might do the trick, but same problem as Trident/SiS.

You should be able to get just about ANY Pre-GeForce or GeForce (MX up through the FX series are good) to meet your needs in this build.

If not, then your best bet is to pair a Voodoo3 with the Voodoo1.

Otherwise, considering upgrading to an LX/BX chipset (or Via Apollo Pro+) based system. You'll be era appropriate and can still obtain cheap AGP cards with great 3D and DOS support (except ATI and Matrox, of course).

Or you can contact "Radical Vision" here. He seems to know a lot of dumb people who sells him stuff for basically nothing.

I'm in favor of the Nvidia option here. However, 2D image quality on some of the lower end implementations can be iffy at higher resolutions. This is not a chip issue, but a board design/construction one .

Voodoo 3 is expensive and and its 3D potential would be wasted with the CPU in that build.

darry wrote on 2022-07-13, 13:59:

Meatball wrote on 2022-07-13, 13:40:

Great PCI cards are tougher to find... REALLY tough... at least on eBay. You just have to keep your eyes open and monitoring con […]
Show full quote

Great PCI cards are tougher to find... REALLY tough... at least on eBay. You just have to keep your eyes open and monitoring constantly.

If one of your goals is excellent DOS, you do NOT want any ATI or Matrox cards. If you DO need 3D, then Cirrus Logic is also out. The later SiS Xabre and Trident Blade3D T16 (and related versions) are pretty good but could be hard to find, even more so at a good price. Most of the S3 Savages might do the trick, but same problem as Trident/SiS.

You should be able to get just about ANY Pre-GeForce or GeForce (MX up through the FX series are good) to meet your needs in this build.

If not, then your best bet is to pair a Voodoo3 with the Voodoo1.

Otherwise, considering upgrading to an LX/BX chipset (or Via Apollo Pro+) based system. You'll be era appropriate and can still obtain cheap AGP cards with great 3D and DOS support (except ATI and Matrox, of course).

Or you can contact "Radical Vision" here. He seems to know a lot of dumb people who sells him stuff for basically nothing.

I'm in favor of the Nvidia option here. However, 2D image quality on some of the lower end implementations can be iffy at higher resolutions. This is not a chip issue, but a board design/construction one .

Voodoo 3 is expensive and and its 3D potential would be wasted with the CPU in that build.

Any card he could reasonably obtain with good Direct3D will be wasted and not cheap. But if you want good DOS and Direct3D, you have to pay to play these days.

I own build with V3 3500, and that one is complete and good to go, I just want this one to max out because it's my the very first PC i build by myseld and I need to replace my S3 because it started to show artifacts always before entering a game and exiting and F5 does not always help with it. xD

Seems idea of combo 2D + 3D isn't that good so I have to look for something better than my S3 like Trident or another S3?

Meatball wrote on 2022-07-13, 14:01:

darry wrote on 2022-07-13, 13:59:

Meatball wrote on 2022-07-13, 13:40:

Great PCI cards are tougher to find... REALLY tough... at least on eBay. You just have to keep your eyes open and monitoring con […]
Show full quote

Great PCI cards are tougher to find... REALLY tough... at least on eBay. You just have to keep your eyes open and monitoring constantly.

If one of your goals is excellent DOS, you do NOT want any ATI or Matrox cards. If you DO need 3D, then Cirrus Logic is also out. The later SiS Xabre and Trident Blade3D T16 (and related versions) are pretty good but could be hard to find, even more so at a good price. Most of the S3 Savages might do the trick, but same problem as Trident/SiS.

You should be able to get just about ANY Pre-GeForce or GeForce (MX up through the FX series are good) to meet your needs in this build.

If not, then your best bet is to pair a Voodoo3 with the Voodoo1.

Otherwise, considering upgrading to an LX/BX chipset (or Via Apollo Pro+) based system. You'll be era appropriate and can still obtain cheap AGP cards with great 3D and DOS support (except ATI and Matrox, of course).

Or you can contact "Radical Vision" here. He seems to know a lot of dumb people who sells him stuff for basically nothing.

I'm in favor of the Nvidia option here. However, 2D image quality on some of the lower end implementations can be iffy at higher resolutions. This is not a chip issue, but a board design/construction one .

Voodoo 3 is expensive and and its 3D potential would be wasted with the CPU in that build.

Any card he could reasonably obtain with good Direct3D will be wasted and not cheap. But if you want good DOS and Direct3D, you have to pay to play these days.

I see your point, I just quick checked on a certain auction site and PCI TNT variants are way more expensive than they used to be, AFAICR (AGP ones are much cheaper). I can't find a single one for less than 100 CAN$ shipped to me . Ouch .

haker120 wrote on 2022-07-13, 14:13:

I own build with V3 3500, and that one is complete and good to go, I just want this one to max out because it's my the very first PC i build by myseld and I need to replace my S3 because it started to show artifacts always before entering a game and exiting and F5 does not always help with it. xD

Seems idea of combo 2D + 3D isn't that good so I have to look for something better than my S2 like Trident or another S3?

2D + 3D design is great if you had more options, but if your S3 is showing artifacts, you just have a bad one. Buy another - S3 are usually very reliable cards. Or if you can get away from primary card having no Direct3D and just good DOS - look for Cirrus Logic. Or Arklogic 2000 (or 1000) series.

I have to, and maybe risk and to buy that Matrox G450? 😁