This thread might be helpful: Dos 6 conventional memory tricks

Personally, I think the simplest solution is to undo every LH that you've placed manually and then run MEMMAKER.EXE. On my system, simply doing that gave me 614 KB of free Conventional Memory, which is enough for all the games that I play. This is assuming that you're running actual MS-DOS 6.22. I don't think the Memmaker utility is available under Win9x.

I'm running DOS on win95, so 7.0, it's a complicated matter to be honest, I would like to put some of those applications in extended memory but no can do.

I would need to see what your memory map looks like without any memory managers loaded. (No himem.sys, no emm386.exe)

I need to see what the adapter rom region looks like when it is untouched. I could then offer suggestions on where or how to do manual include statements.

You can get MSD as a stand alone zip from winworldpc. It will give me the kind of output I am looking for.

EG-- this is what the map looks like from DosBox, which sets up a page frame and UMBs automagically.

I need to see this for your system with no memory managers, so that I can see where/how/which option roms are in the adapter region.
Some option ROMs are safe to remap with protected mode UMBs with EMM386.EXE with a forced include statement, for instance. Things like PXE bioses and the like. Others, like XTIDE bios, you should not even try.

MSD can give more details about what is what in memory, as it has an option to examine option roms.

For completeness, this is the actual map from my dell xps 15.

And this is what umbck from umbpci says.

From this, I can likely (and safely) use

I=D400-E3FF I=EC00-EFFF

I 'might, maybe' be able to get away with including d000-d3ff and e400-EBFF.

(Initial testing says that I CAN include both, but I need to aggressively test.)

Most systems can also safely add I=B000-B7FF unless you are using a monochrome display adapter or Hercules card.

Since you mentioned MS-DOS 7.0 from Windows 95, I tweaked some things to try.

CONFIG.SYS

1DOS=HIGH,UMB
2FILESHIGH=50
3BUFFERSHIGH=10,0
4FCBSHIGH=4,0
5LASTDRIVEHIGH=E
6STACKS=9,256
7COUNTRY=039,850,C:\WINDOWS\COMMAND\COUNTRY.SYS
8DEVICE=C:\WINDOWS\HIMEM.SYS /TESTMEM:OFF
9REM Added NOEMS to get more UMB, you won't any EMS memory though
10DEVICE=C:\WINDOWS\EMM386.EXE RAM NOEMS I=B000-B7FF I=D000=EFFF
11REM VIDE-CDD.SYS is a good alternative
12DEVICEHIGH=C:\CDROM\OAKCDROM.SYS /D:MSCD001
13REM DISPLAY.SYS not necessary for DOS gaming
14REM DEVICEHIGH=C:\WINDOWS\COMMAND\DISPLAY.SYS CON=(EGA,,1)
15SHELL=C:\COMMAND.COM /P /E:1024

AUTOEXEC.BAT

1C:\AZT1008\AZTPNP.EXE /D:C:\DRIVERS\AZT1008 /DEFOPT
2C:\AZT1008\DOSMIXER.EXE /AUTO
3REM BLASTER environment variable just in case
4SET BLASTER=A220 I5 D1 T4
5REM CuteMouse can be loaded into UMB automatically
6C:\MOUSE\CTMOUSE\CTMOUSE
7REM I commented the follwing two lines as they require DISPLAY.SYS to be loaded
8REM MODE CON CODEPAGE PREPARE=((850) C:\WINDOWS\COMMAND\EGA.CPI)
9REM MODE CON CODEPAGE SELECT=850
10LH KEYB IT,,C:\WINDOWS\COMMAND\KEYBOARD.SYS
11LH C:\WINDOWS\COMMAND\MSCDEX.EXE /D:MSCD001 /M:10
12REM Added for Voodoo2
13SET SST_GRXCLK=90
14SET SST_FT_CLK_DEL=0x4
15SET SST_TF0_CLK_DEL=0x6
16SET SST_TF1_CLK_DEL=0x6
17SET SST_VIN_CLKDEL=0x1
18SET SST_VOUT_CLKDEL=0x0
19SET SST_TMUMEM_SIZE=2

Note that I don't know the Matrox G200 PCI's BIOS ROM size and assume that it takes about 64 KB (starting at C000). Also, I recommend sticking MSCDEX as SHSUCDX's compatibility still pales in comparison.

The autoexec.bat line

devicehigh=C:\WINDOWS\EMM386.EXE RAM X=A000-BFFF auto HIGHSCAN I=B700-B7FF D=64 H=255

looks odd to me.

First that line states to eXclude the range A000-BFFF from consideration for upper memory, but then afterwards it states to Include the range B700-B7FF, which is a sub-range of the initially excluded range.

I don't know if EMM386.EXE works to first exclude, and then include a range? Maybe someone might know better, though I'd recommend keeping the ranges orthogonal.

However, the directive I=B700-B7FF looks curious as well. How did you reason that?

That range corresponds to a small 4096 byte range at the far end of the DOS mode 07h 80x25 text mode memory map range. By default, that mode only requires 4000 bytes for on-screen information (80*25*2 bytes), however applications may use any number of offscreen buffers of text, for scrolling and page flipping. Some applications might memset() that whole 32KB range to zero when clearing text, so for some applications, grabbing that memory range for upper memory might not be safe?

If you are doing that intentionally, you might try including a larger part of that range, maybe 16KB, 24KB, or yolo the full 28KB of offscreen memory (although some apps will quite surely crash when they write out those bounds).

Like others already mention, it is good idea to entertain the option of also including parts, or all of, C000, D000 and E000 segments into EMM386.exe for upper memory, and then push loadhighs to that area as aggressively as possible. Using tools to search if there is anything existing there can help figure out areas of address space that cannot be utilized.

Ok, i got a ton of advises that i need to apply now, regarding MSCDEX \SHSUCDX isn't there a lighter alternative?
I was thinking to use VIDE-CDD.SYS

iraito wrote on 2023-07-16, 16:29:

Ok, i got a ton of advises that i need to apply now, regarding MSCDEX \SHSUCDX isn't there a lighter alternative?
I was thinking to use VIDE-CDD.SYS

Hi there!
VIDE-CDD.SYS is okay, it's often used by the community.
It's lighter than OAKCDROM.SYS, but less feature complete/compatible.
After all, oakcdrom.sys was chosen for a reason as the universal CD-ROM driver for IDE/ATAPI drives in Windows 98/SE (Windows boot disk) .

Finding a smaller MSCDEX is possible, too. Just have a look at the other DOSes of the time, they have an MSCDEX counterpart, too.
The Russian versions used assembly written drivers and utilities, I remember.

Alternatively, have a look at Multimedia Cloaking.
It supported special editions of MSCDEX which didn't waste space in conventional memory.
Very interesting, but largely unexplored so far. It's barely known in the DOS community, it seems.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DOS_Protected_M … rvices#CLOAKING

Last but not least, QEMM is worth a try.
It can manage memory much better than EMM386+MemMaker, but is less stable, also.
QEMM works best on 386-586 era hardware, also, due to its use of tricks (hacks).

Good luck. 😃🤞

Ok, i think i got it right thanks to you all:

AUTOEXEC

1C:\AZT1008\AZTPNP.EXE /D:C:\DRIVERS\AZT1008 /DEFOPT
2C:\AZT1008\DOSMIXER.EXE /AUTO
3SET BLASTER=A220 I5 D1 T4
4C:\mouse\ctmouse\ctmouse.exe
5LH C:\dosgames\VGA240.exe /install
6REM mode con codepage prepare=((850) C:\WINDOWS\COMMAND\ega.cpi)
7REM mode con codepage select=850
8LH keyb it,,C:\WINDOWS\COMMAND\keyboard.sys
9LH C:\WINDOWS\COMMAND\MSCDEX.EXE /D:MSCD001 /M:10
10Rem added for soundblaster
11Rem Added for Voodoo2
12set SST_GRXCLK=90
13set SST_FT_CLK_DEL=0x4
14set SST_TF0_CLK_DEL=0x6
15set SST_TF1_CLK_DEL=0x6

CONFIG

1dos=HIGH,UMB
2fileshigh=50
3buffershigh=10,0
4FCBSHIGH=4,0
5lastdrivehigh=E
6stacks=9,256
7Country=039,850,C:\WINDOWS\COMMAND\country.sys
8device=C:\WINDOWS\HIMEM.SYS /M:1
9device=C:\WINDOWS\EMM386.EXE RAM NOEMS HIGHSCAN I=B700-B7FF D=64 H=255
10shell=C:\windows\command.com C:\windows\ /E:1024 /P
11devicehigh=C:\cdrom\vide-cdd.sys /D:mscd001 /p:1f0,14
12rem devicehigh=C:\cdrom\oakcdrom.sys /D:mscd001
13rem DEVICEHIGH=C:\mouse\mouse.sys
14DEVICEHIGH=C:\windows\setver.exe
15DEVICEHIGH=C:\windows\ifshlp.sys
16rem devicehigh=C:\WINDOWS\COMMAND\display.sys con=(ega,,1)
17SHELL=C:\command.com /p /e:1024

Why NOEMS? There are a few games that need EMS.

Also, with EMS available, you can add /E switch to MSCDEX. It will then use some EMS and less UMBs.

I changed the noems to check the difference, I lost around 30k, I still have a lot of memory for pretty much anything plus the extra ems that can be used for other games.

(1) Did you add /E to MSCDEX? It should cut its UMB usage by approximately half.
(2) Are you sure you really need VGA240? (95K!!!) I understand it is useful mostly for capturing lower-res VGA video output on an external capture card.

I used E and yeah I do indeed need it for capturing and upscaling, I wish it was better optimized though.
I have 600k free, I'm good for now, if vga240 is gonna get lighter it would solve everything.

You can try using another keyboard driver. KEYB/KEYBOARD.SYS are huge.

If you can, have a look at MS-DOS or PC-DOS 3.30 in your language.
It maybe contains a small KEYB driver, from before DOS got international support.
Maybe some old OEM version by Olivetti?

I'm sorry, that's all I can say. Those alternative keyboard drivers were part of PC magazines or written by private authors (as Public Domain/PD).

Edit: A keyboard driver from DOS 2.x should also work.
They're guaranteed to be small, also. About 2 to 5 KB, I guess.

iraito wrote on 2023-07-17, 11:19:

I have 600k free, I'm good for now, if vga240 is gonna get lighter it would solve everything.

My understanding (from that thread I linked to) is that you can do away with VGA240 if you have a good VGA-->HDMI converter, but those are not so cheap. Also, some folks report that VGA240 on their systems takes considerably less RAM, I didn't continue reading to see if it was investigated.

I am struggling to find games that need >600K, so you should be good. If it becomes a problem, you can always remove VGA240 autoload, and invoke it manually when you need to.

All in all, it looks like your setup is in good shape.

dr_st wrote on 2023-07-17, 12:35:

My understanding (from that thread I linked to) is that you can do away with VGA240 if you have a good VGA-->HDMI converter, but […]
Show full quote

iraito wrote on 2023-07-17, 11:19:

I have 600k free, I'm good for now, if vga240 is gonna get lighter it would solve everything.

My understanding (from that thread I linked to) is that you can do away with VGA240 if you have a good VGA-->HDMI converter, but those are not so cheap. Also, some folks report that VGA240 on their systems takes considerably less RAM, I didn't continue reading to see if it was investigated.

I am struggling to find games that need >600K, so you should be good. If it becomes a problem, you can always remove VGA240 autoload, and invoke it manually when you need to.

All in all, it looks like your setup is in good shape.

I have a GBS control to deal with conversions\upscaling etc. i could even try to not use vga240, gbsc is able to deal with 70+Hz refresh, i just find it more stable and especially it permits me to get an insanely crisp picture for DOS games.
Actually i checked some of my older uploads, i wasn't using vga240 but i definitely had lower picture clarity so i guess i started using it for that reason.

iraito wrote on 2023-07-17, 11:19:

I used E and yeah I do indeed need it for capturing and upscaling, I wish it was better optimized though.
I have 600k free, I'm good for now, if vga240 is gonna get lighter it would solve everything.

I have been wondering why you needed the VGA240 TSR which looks bloated. As dr_st said, it can be used only when necessary since it can be invoked during the DOS prompt.

Jo22 wrote on 2023-07-17, 12:05:

You can try using another keyboard driver. KEYB/KEYBOARD.SYS are huge. […]
Show full quote

You can try using another keyboard driver. KEYB/KEYBOARD.SYS are huge.

If you can, have a look at MS-DOS or PC-DOS 3.30 in your language.
It maybe contains a small KEYB driver, from before DOS got international support.
Maybe some old OEM version by Olivetti?

I'm sorry, that's all I can say. Those alternative keyboard drivers were part of PC magazines or written by private authors (as Public Domain/PD).

Edit: A keyboard driver from DOS 2.x should also work.
They're guaranteed to be small, also. About 2 to 5 KB, I guess.

FreeDOS's KEYB/KEYBOARD.SYS can also be used to reduce the amount of memory usage.

Gmlb256 wrote on 2023-07-17, 13:40:

I have been wondering why you needed the VGA240 TSR which looks bloated. As dr_st said, it can be used only when necessary since […]
Show full quote

iraito wrote on 2023-07-17, 11:19:

I used E and yeah I do indeed need it for capturing and upscaling, I wish it was better optimized though.
I have 600k free, I'm good for now, if vga240 is gonna get lighter it would solve everything.

I have been wondering why you needed the VGA240 TSR which looks bloated. As dr_st said, it can be used only when necessary since it can be invoked during the DOS prompt.

Jo22 wrote on 2023-07-17, 12:05:

You can try using another keyboard driver. KEYB/KEYBOARD.SYS are huge. […]
Show full quote

You can try using another keyboard driver. KEYB/KEYBOARD.SYS are huge.

If you can, have a look at MS-DOS or PC-DOS 3.30 in your language.
It maybe contains a small KEYB driver, from before DOS got international support.
Maybe some old OEM version by Olivetti?

I'm sorry, that's all I can say. Those alternative keyboard drivers were part of PC magazines or written by private authors (as Public Domain/PD).

Edit: A keyboard driver from DOS 2.x should also work.
They're guaranteed to be small, also. About 2 to 5 KB, I guess.

FreeDOS's KEYB/KEYBOARD.SYS can also be used to reduce the amount of memory usage.

I use vga240 because I record pretty much anything I play, so I keep it ready.