dr.zeissler wrote on 2022-12-09, 08:28:

nice thread 😀

Hi Doc! Thank you very much!

Some of these emulators will run on an IBM PC/AT Model 5170, even.
So I guess there's room for experiments on your Amiga/Bridgeboard! ^^

yeah good idea...!

Next frontend.. KGen Loader! It's a Win32s compatible frontend for KGen, the Sega Genesis emulator for DOS. 😁
It also has the ability to use Genecyst, alternatively. Both in general and for specific games, if you like.

The frontend also has a database with a thumbnail-sized preview (300x210 pels roughly).
What's astonishing, it can read headers of Sega Genesis/MD games, as well!

I've attached a copy of it (from zophar.net), containing KGen Loader, KGen+KGen98 and Genecyst.
They are the latest versions, I believe. Please note that Win 3.1x likes KGen the most.

What would you recommend testing if the win30 machine has only 1MB Ram and 286/8Mhz?

dr.zeissler wrote on 2022-12-13, 12:47:

What would you recommend testing if the win30 machine has only 1MB Ram and 286/8Mhz?

Hi, sorry to kept you waiting.
I think you can safely try the "Baby" Mark 1 Simulator.
It simulates an early experimental computer of the 1940's.

Hm. The Winfocom interpreter for the text-adventures may works, too.
And CowChip, the IMSAI/ALTAIR and Z80 CPU simulators.
The COSMAC ELF simulator..
The later must be run in "slow mode", no kidding!

It's hard to say, I guess.
Technically, all those plain 16-Bit emulators visible in the screenshot do run, too.
Problem is performance, RAM and the colour-depth.

With a few more MHz, the 80286 CPU would handle them nicely.
A 25 MHz model isn't required, even. A 16 MHz model would be fine.
A 12 or 10 MHz one would be usable for the simple stuff.

The PC/AT emulation I had chosen is very slow, unfortunately.
PCem emulates the waistates and slow memory of the AT dutifully, too.
By comparison, my Schneider AT PC is much more responsive
(has 2 MHz more) and runs ISA at 10 MHz.

Then there's the VGA.. PCem's selection is wastly. For 386+ machines.
So far, I've merely got the OAK OTI-67 to work in 256c in Standard-Mode.
It has "286 or better" drivers listen in oemsetup.inf..

However, the OAK drivers are slow compared to "VGA" or "Super VGA (800x600)".
Both on real hardware and on emulated hardware.
Well, the 800x600 256c version is very sluggish, at least.
The 640x480 256c version is sort of "ok". I use that for now.

Tip: You can use the screen savers as a benchmark to see how fast images are being drawn.
"Flying Windows" does a good job here, I think, because moving objects change in size.

The only alternatives to the OAK so far are the ET-4000 and the Paradise PVGA1A (not in PCem 10.1).
But the drivers I found cause video corruption in Standard-Mode for some reason.
Except those old ones written for Windows 2.x, which use Real-Mode:
The Paradise drivers always worked for me (in Windows 2.03 and 3.0/Real-Mode).
Hm. I wished the older ET-3000 was emulated, as well.

That being said, not all programs require 256 colours.
But that ZX Spectrum emulator does, for example.

RAM. In PCem, selecting "1MB" does disable Extended Memory.
So I chose "2MB" instead, giving 640KB+1024KB.
This seems to be enough to run one progream each time.
I'm using the "Run" command in Program Manager here and no wallpaper.

Good luck! 😀

PS: Funnily, some of the emulators using WinG would run, too.
But WinG itself does require a 386 for working,
which is understandable. It was made for speed, literally.
If someone wrote a replacement for WING.DLL,
Some WinG applications would perhaps start working on a 286.
The underlying GDI itself is 16-Bit, after all.

I have several Schneider AT's too. The 386sx I sold a short time ago. The EGA and the VGA machines are quite capable but I have chosen not to use them and use the Amiga2000 with the A2286/8 bridgeboard instead. This machine is has the most potential...I don't care if it has only 1MB RAM and 8Mhz...it's all about finding the right software for it. Sure you can load a 1024x768 256color PCX in windows paint...that would reqire loadingtimes about far longer than two minutes...but you can convert to TGA and load the exact same gfx in 2seconds on that same machine 😉

Finding the right software and optimizing as far as possible...that is my whay of doing things

...other people keep buying and upgrading the hardware for 30+ years... jeder wie er meint 😉

Doc

https://youtu.be/P2z_6hgYvcs

Aye. Don't despair. Emulators are very demanding by nature.
There once was a rule of thumb that an emulator's host needs about 10 times the power of the system it emulates.

MS Windows needs contingous memory to properly work. It has not only to run the application, but also load a lot of DLLs.
I used 4 MB in my 12 MHz 286 in the early 90s, for example. Simply because it made sense, not for the sake of beefing it up.
Same for the PAS16.. I merely wanted a CD-ROM drive, because everything was on CD! So I got a multimedia-kit.

I guess it depends on the use case also. Windows, MOD players and development tools want enough working memory.
Back then, it allowed me to run the Terminal/FAX software of my Creatix modem, CompuServe's WinCIM and T-Online Software 1.02.
I'm not sure if 1 MB were enough to load all the DLLs in T-Online Software (the KIT decoder was a separate DLL, afaik).

If you only have 1 MB in your PC card, you could try installing an UMB card or an Extended Memory card.
That way, you can get a bit of extra memory. The wonderful thing of ISA is, that it is a parallel bus.
Even if you used up all slots, you can still solder one card in parallel to another. Just be careful with the pinout.

Let's take the network card, if you have one. If it's not a collector's item, simply wire another card in parallel.
Say, that 1 MB card from Lo-Tech. If the UMA has some free space not used by the PC-Bridgeboard communications channel.
For wiring some thin wires should do (short distance), attached to the upper part of the gold fingers.
The real problem is a mechanical one, I suppose. Creating some holding mechanism to sandwhich both together.
Anway, it's just an idea. I thought about doing that myself once.. Maybe the emulators do run with 1 MB, also.
I merely had no chance to test that right now. My hobby room is a mess at the moment and the Schneider AT isn't set up.
Otherwise, I would have used it for testing. I always prefer real hardware, if available. 😀

As for the colour depth.. Windows wants 20 solid/fixed colours for its own purpose, if it can get them.
Which usually is only the case if it has a 256c and higher driver at hand.
A graphics adapter for PC that has between 20c and 256c didn't really exist, afaik.
MS Windows 1.x/2.x were no different, by the way. They really wanted 256c all the time for true-color dithering (no palettes).

So if you can, consider to get an OAK OTI-67. OAKs used to be low in price on eBay, last time I checked.
It also has drivers for Windows 2.03 (tested them, work okay). And it's period correct, too.
Old Super VGA software can use it without requiring that VBE 1.x TSR to be loaded.

Alternatively, a Paradise (PVGA1A/B/C) or Western Digital (WD90c00 to WD90C31) will do.
Their video modes have the same number, good enough for the PVGA1A driver.

If you get an ET-4000, please consider the 4000 or 4000AX version. Not the /w32 verisons.
The original designs are different to the Windows accelerator models.
Vintage software and demos may not properly function with the newer models.
I recommend trying the Copper Demo for checking compatibility.
It was made with the original ET-4000s in mind.

copper demo is too demanding for that machine. I checked hundreds of scene-stuff against that machine...still more to check...

Quick update. I've taken some screenshots of the emulators with the 2 MB configuration.
I wasn't making fun of you when I recommend testing them. Your 286 CPU can handle them.
To my surprise, CowChip, the CHIP-8 emulator, runs rather quick on Hercules Monochrome (vs OAK VGA).

Quick update. I'm trying to simulate your setting. I'm not sure if I can get it going, though.
I'm not very familiar with the A2286 unit. I'm still learning. Even though I kind of feel home with Amiga OS 1.x..

The basic system seems working so far, but XUB (AT version) doesn't show up during POST. Old problem, I guess.
Anyway, maybe the "Hard Disk Type Information" chart of BIOS 3.6 is useful to someone.

I'm currently trying to get the old WD1003 BIOS routines to work.
Maybe PCem can help making a suitable HDD image.
If that doesn't work, I will try BXIMAGE from Bochs/Qemu.

Ideally, this would allow me to install DOS and Windows 3.1x at some point.

Anyway, I'm just trying. I hope you guys/gals don't mind.
It's all about emulation, after all. And Windows 3.x is always being involved, too.

Speaking of, I will present you some more Windows 3.1x compatible emulators in the near future.
There are also some more DOS emulator front-ends for Win16/Win32 waiting..
It just takes a while each time.. Making believable screenshots is the most time consuming part.

I try my best to make it look more natural each time, by adding some appropiate wallpapers, a small game library etc.
My intention is to give an impression how it *could* have been looked like on someones computer in the '90s.
Always with an eye on the file sizes. I don't mean to cause Vogons unecessary traffic.

dr.zeissler wrote on 2022-12-14, 16:10:

https://youtu.be/P2z_6hgYvcs

Cool setup! Kudos to you! 😎
I'm glad to see you're also working with the original Amiga OS here! ^^

PS: I also try working with a dual-monitor setup, but I'm using an XT compatible.
I got the idea simply because it has CGA-onboard (primary video) and I had no idea how to change that.
There are DIP switches on the underside of the PC, but without a manual...

Anyway, the extra Hercules clone in tandem with CGA works fine for me and the something by 348 resolution is enough for my applications.:
Visual Basic DOS, Turbo Pascal 6, some semiconductor database, radio software, astronomy software etc.. Vintage stuff.
Anyway, I believe your setup is way higher-end and can run them, too, if not better. 😀 👍
And with EMU386 loaded, your 80286 can handle many recent DOS utilities, too.

Thx, I am always using real hardware...I am not a big fan of software or fpga emulation.

Have you ever tried loading a program for an 8-bit computer from cassette tape? Let me know if that experience changes your mind. 😜

I'm of a similar opinion. But I draw the line at cassettes outside of morbid curiosity. And I have several ZX81s as well.

Quick update. Got both the A2286 and CGA emulation working, but.. Himem.sys detects no XMS.
With 1MB total memory available. That's weird. I didn't use any Shadow Memory or EMS. Were are those 384 KB gone ?
Windows 3.1x can load with 640 KB, but not without Himem.sys. If merely the HMA was available.. Then, fine.
But this confuses me. Maybe it's because of BIOS 3.6. I'll check if v4.2 will fix this error.

Edit: On a second thought.. Maybe the RAM is required for communication between Amiga-Bridgeboard?
Hm. But if that's not the case.. I wonder if the IBM AT has a similar issue. Unfortunately, PCem v10.1 doesn't allow selecting 1 MB.

Quick Update. I forgot to mention.. I got MS-DOS 5.0 installed with the Type 09 HDD.
I used PCem to make the HDD image and used the Amiga emulator to install MS-DOS 5.0 the normal way (360KB floppies).
However, I had to enter CHS drive geometry in the Amiga emulator manually because it wrongly detected.
I also changed ATA-2 to ATA-1, just to be sure.

With the 2MB configuration, XMS is detected and Windows 3.1 starts up normally.
Just that Windows 3 CGA driver.. It's totally messed up. Windows 1 and 2 look normal, this one doesn't.
The title bar is totally oversized. Was this always the case ? I thought it wasn't. Or maybe I just remember EGA monochrome ?
Anyway, Hercules would look normal, at least, if it was emulated.

Pictures in GIF format this time.
There was some issue with the PNG rendering (no thumbnail).

Two of the emulators ran, but I can't say anything about performance.
The DOS tool says the 80286 runs at ~80 MHz.

Program Manager was replaced as a shell by MS-DOS Executive of Windows 3.0,
to save memory for Windows applications.

Edit: This wasn't meant as a substitude for test with real hardware by any means..
The emulated x86 is too quick, for example, the VGA selection is limited to Cirrus 5426/5429..
And those VGAs don't have 286 compatible Super VGA drivers for Windows 3.1x.
I was merely trying to help finding out if Windows 3.1x and applications could execute, at all.
Looking forward to see things on a real setup.. 😀 👍

Quick update. I couldn't get BIOS v4.2 to work, sadly..

However, I've checked the A2286 manual, and it says that the default memory is 640+384 KB.
And 128 KB dual-ported RAM are used for communication between the systems.

Plus the MDA+CGA framebuffers, I suppose. Unless they're included in those 128 KB already.

Hm. So something is still wrong in the Bridgeboard emulator. After all, a 286 without Extended Memory is like a car without tires.
I may try installing the A2286 DOS drivers another time, that's something I missed to do. Maybe that was my mistake..

Edit: Replaced the picture by another one (smaller).

Edit: The culprit could be jumper J5 on the A2286: "J5. Function: enable/disable 384K above memory".
It's not emulated/changeable yet, it seems. There's no entry in the configuration list, afaik.

Edit: I think I finally understand the issue. The Janus software and the bridgeboards are at the 1987 level, technology wise.
The 'Amiga Bridgeboard Buch' book, dated 1991, mentions Janus software from mid-1987 and MS-DOS 3.30, also from 1987.
- In 1987, there was no himem.sys included with DOS, yet. In 1988, MS Windows /286 did use the HMA, however.

So it makes kind of sense that neither the book nor the software has a proper concept of XMS and Extended Memory.
The book recommends to use EMS for applicatons and use that 'useless' memory beyond 1 MB as a RAM disk, as if it was '85 to '87.

I guess it doesn't really help that its predecessor, the A2088, was an XT emulator board.
My copy of the Janus installer treats both the same - it's the later released A2386SX ('91) that is treated differently.
And the ancient side car, of course. Which has a PC compatible motherboard down inside the chassis.

Edit: Of course, it's possible to install memory boards in the ISA slots an have plenty of memory.
That's how the original IBM AT was upgraded to several MBs back in the day.
Third-party parts such as the AST Rampage, Intel Above Board etc could be used, too.

Quick update. There's a frontend for ZSNES named UZI, but it requires Windows 9x..
While it does technically execute on Win32s, it doesn't respond to any user input.
It can be found at zophar.net, maybe it's still useful to Win 95 users.

Edit: Trouble with PNG again. Added a GIF picture instead.
Edit: Still doesn't like the image.

The next one is simply called "ZSNES Frontend" and executes on Windows 3.1 natively (no Win32s).
For some reason, it can't detect the gamepads and the headers of the games, however. Maybe due to its age.
It's more of launcher than a frontend, also. It allows to comfortably start ZSNES in a graphical way via a GUI.

Quick update. Here's another fine Super NES frontend for Windows..
It was written with Windows 95 in mind, but runs on Windows 3.1+Win32s, as well.

From what I can say, it works fine so far, even though it uses the Windows registry.
- As you may know, this was some kind of Archille's heel to Windows 3.1x.

At the time, the registry was technically already implemented, but rarely ever used.
Users who actually wanted to use it had to invoke the registry editor, regedit.exe,
with the /v parameter (verbose).

The program was meant to be used with ZSNES of its day.
Luckily, it still works with the latest release, v1.51 (DOS).

Like the other frontends mentioned earlier, you can also download it from zophar.net, if you like.
This will cause vogons less traffic, also. Link: https://www.zophar.net/frontends

Edit: ZFront likes to create/modify/overwrite the ZSNES configuration file, zsnes.cfg.
Since this file is version specific and because the old ZSNES release it was written for is hard to find now,
I've decided to include that ZSNES version, as well. File size is about a megabyte.
Hope that's okay. I thought it's better that way, for preservation purposes.

The titlebars look a little messed up. I'm guessing they tried to customize them, but it was only ever hard coded for Windows 95 metrics.