VOGONS


First post, by DrLucienSanchez

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Hi guys, this is a work in progress, but I've more or less completed the Windows 98 part of my project.

Just some context, I have a few builds, FX5900, Ti4200, MX440 with Pentium II, III and IV, the Pentium II, too slow, the Pentium III I have, too slow, and the Pentium IV, doesn't really interest me, especially with power consumption and heat, same for the FX as well. I did have a Voodoo 3 AGP, but sold it recently, as just not my thing to be honest, I like 32bit colour, not fussed about Glide.

I wanted something cool, and reasonably powerful, goal is to cover some limited DOS games that I like, the whole Windows 98 thing, EAX, but able to max and get playable frames for everything up to around UT2003.

Celeron 440 2.00Ghz (Conroe-L) 35w TDP and, I think around 3.4Ghz Pentium 4 speed, or a bit better, plenty of room for overclocking, but it's not needed.

Gigabyte G31M-ES2L - there are no Windows 98 drivers, it's a ICH7 chipset, I have manually applied the chipset drivers via device manager. SATA does work when patched, but is flaky at best, the BIOS options are there for a mix of IDE and SATA but it's not stable and I get very bad performance, so I have stuck with IDE via converter.

WD Blue 320GB SATA, using the IDE converter, partitioned to 120GB FAT 32, the other NTFS, which i will later be installing XP to.

512MB DDR2 800Mhz RAM currently, one stick, so in single channel mode. I can get this board on 98 to recognise 2GB in one slot with the RLOEW patch, if I populate the other channel with another 2GB stick though, I get a protection error on boot. I'll update this to 2GB once I get XP installed though.

Audigy 2 ZS sound card, VXD drivers, courtesy of this wonderful website, with very helpful instructions. I have SB16 emulation and General MIDI with the SC-55 soundfont.

600W Seasonic PSU

Finally, this rig, as of yesterday had a PCI MX440 64bit, not bad to be honest, brilliant 800x600 card, any higher resolution, it chokes, UT 99 maxed out with 16 bots, low of 56FPS, max of 85, which is the refresh rate. DOS performance, for some reason was pretty slow, Doom DOS timedemo ran at 23fps, Screamer Rally at 65K and high res ran somewhat of a slide slow, same for Quake and Duke3d at 800x600, probably on par with my 400Mhz PII, however this has now changed.

I now have a new old stock X600 Pro 256MB PCIE card running with 6.2 cat drivers successfully. Repasted, but I may look into a better cooling solution down the line, only £15. I was expecting a lot of issues, which didn't actually occur, no black screens, issues with shut down, or any serious anomalies. Probably a little but better, maybe 10% than my Pentium 4 2.53Ghz with Ti4200 in terms of performance. Doom DOS timedemo goes to 120fps, Screamer and DOS performance at high res is now smooth. I can max out UT 2003, 16 bots, on average lows of 20 to 60fps, which if fine for me, any more performance I would just use my Ivybridge XP system.

So it works fine, at least for me, Duke3D, Screamer, Quake and Doom 1&2 are perfect, I can't comment on others as these are my primary DOS only games.

Max Payne 1 and 2, Baldur's Gate, Icewind Dale, all fine, UT 99 and 2003 perfect and I get a steady 60fps on Unreal Gold flyby, I game at 1024x768.

Bugs for me though which I have noticed, which does not occur on my FX5900 -

Latest nGlide works fine, on part with the 5900 on my Pentium 4 system, but with this setup, Descent 3 in Glide shows small black artefacts, and a sort of SLI looking tearing - this issues goes away if using OpenGL or Direct3d, I will test with Undying later, but I'm fine using OpenGL or D3D, just an observation.

The biggest bug though is the refresh rate, I can not get it more than 60Hz, it worked fine with the MX440 at 85 to 140Hhz, but his, I set in display properties to 85, it changes on display properties to that number, but not actually on the monitor, stays at 60, and Hztool can't override this either, annoying, but not the end of the world, but probably a driver issue, I'll test it with XP once installed, but if anyone knows of a fix, then please let me know!!

I've attached some images, if you've seen Doom and Dukle3d you've seen them all, but if you want me to screenshot anything else, just let me know 😀 but this was really just a proof of concept to show that PCIE can work very well, and this is a build that satisfies me more than my period correct systems.

BTW, case was a new old stock "Acme" case I got from fleabay, I can't fit a CD/DVD drive as the PSU takes up most if the speace at the top, but I run everything off Daemon Tools - redbook audio also works fone for me, when tested with QuaKe II.

Reply 1 of 10, by Duffman

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Nice!

If you want to give SATA another try you can give rloew's TBPLUS driver a go - worked for me.

MB: ASRock B550 Steel Legend
CPU: Ryzen 9 5950X
RAM: Corsair 64GB Kit (4x16GB) DDR4 Veng LPX C18 4000MHz
SSDs: 2x Crucial MX500 1TB SATA + 1x Samsung 980 (non-pro) 1TB NVMe SSD
OSs: Win 11 Pro (NVMe) + WinXP Pro SP3 (SATA)
GPU: RTX2070 (11) GT730 (XP)

Reply 2 of 10, by DrLucienSanchez

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Appreciate the suggestion, just tried it and no dice. I'm OK with IDE, but I'll stick another HDD in for XP, probably SSD, run it off SATA, have them independent of each other, and just switch to SATA and the XP HDD via BIOS. The 60hz issue though is a little annoying, tempted to do a fresh install, see if that sorts it. tried Powerstrip and Hztool and still stuck at that dreadful 60 🙁

Reply 3 of 10, by mockingbird

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Can you please post a screenshot of your device manager? I tried 98 on several Intel PCIe platforms... None were satisfactory. Always weird conflicts in device manager and could never get everything to play nice together.

mslrlv.png
(Decommissioned:)
7ivtic.png

Reply 4 of 10, by DrLucienSanchez

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Here you go. I recall that under "other devices" there was a yellow exclamation mark for "PCI bus management" which I then manually added the ICH7 driver to.

System devices was already populated after the OS install, the only yellow exclamation, on the screenshot, allows a driver to be loaded as the above, but upon restart still shows as a yellow exclamation.

To clarify, when I did the OS install, VXD sound etc, then graphic drivers for the PCI MX440, I did not install the ICH7 driver, everything worked fine, so i don't think they were needed. I only installed them prior to putting in the X600 as precaution.

I am actually going to do a fresh OS install again to see if that resolves the 60hz issue, so I will update this post with screenshots of a vanilla install device manager, and I will see if this allow the X600 to be detected and installed without the ICH7 drivers.

Reply 5 of 10, by Almoststew1990

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This is a very interesting build and I'm planning a ich7 PCI-e build too (coincidentally in the exact same case!) Are you able to upload the driver you installed for the ich7 pci bus?

My build will be a 478 board with PCIe, a 6600GT Which had W98 drivers and a Advance Logic ALS4000 sound card. But I may swap in a G31 board I have. Both will be with 1GB of DDR2 because I don't have a 512 stick and i don't trust Royal Mail to deliver a stick this side of Easter!

Reply 6 of 10, by The Serpent Rider

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X600 GPU can be overclocked quite far. To the point that it will shred any GeForce 4 Ti.

I must be some kind of standard: the anonymous gangbanger of the 21st century.

Reply 7 of 10, by mockingbird

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DrLucienSanchez wrote on 2022-12-22, 10:15:
Here you go. I recall that under "other devices" there was a yellow exclamation mark for "PCI bus management" which I then manua […]
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Here you go. I recall that under "other devices" there was a yellow exclamation mark for "PCI bus management" which I then manually added the ICH7 driver to.

System devices was already populated after the OS install, the only yellow exclamation, on the screenshot, allows a driver to be loaded as the above, but upon restart still shows as a yellow exclamation.

To clarify, when I did the OS install, VXD sound etc, then graphic drivers for the PCI MX440, I did not install the ICH7 driver, everything worked fine, so i don't think they were needed. I only installed them prior to putting in the X600 as precaution.

I am actually going to do a fresh OS install again to see if that resolves the 60hz issue, so I will update this post with screenshots of a vanilla install device manager, and I will see if this allow the X600 to be detected and installed without the ICH7 drivers.

Thanks for that... Your motherboard seems to be better suited than the ones I tried then... I also tried an Asus P5GC-MX/1333 (ICH7) and had issues with it too.

mslrlv.png
(Decommissioned:)
7ivtic.png

Reply 8 of 10, by DrLucienSanchez

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Almoststew1990 wrote on 2022-12-22, 14:45:

This is a very interesting build and I'm planning a ich7 PCI-e build too (coincidentally in the exact same case!) Are you able to upload the driver you installed for the ich7 pci bus?

My build will be a 478 board with PCIe, a 6600GT Which had W98 drivers and a Advance Logic ALS4000 sound card. But I may swap in a G31 board I have. Both will be with 1GB of DDR2 because I don't have a 512 stick and i don't trust Royal Mail to deliver a stick this side of Easter!

Here's the ICH files that I used , part of a pack, and have to be manually installed via device manager - https://retrosystemsrevival.blogspot.com/2019 … drivers-9x.html - I've added a couple of screenshots of the vanilla install device manager.

The only one that I installed the driver to was the "PCI system management bus" - this had to be installed prior to the X600 CAT 6.2 drivers. I tried them without the ICH7 driver at first, the card showed on device manager with an exclamation mark and the driver could not detect the card, uninstalling the ATI driver, removing the X600 from device manager manually, switching the BIOS to PCI, then booting and going back to PCIE, the card was then detected on boot and then I installed the drivers, and it works again. So this looks to be important and should be installed prior to any PCIE GPU drivers.

Unfortunately no higher refresh than 60Hz - this is likely just a driver issue for Cat 6.2 on 9x, but I can't rule out a hardware/cap issue, however I will verify this once I get XP installed with mature ATI drivers.

The Serpent Rider wrote on 2022-12-22, 14:55:

X600 GPU can be overclocked quite far. To the point that it will shred any GeForce 4 Ti.

Definitely a plan for the future, I'll look at a better cooling solution first, the fan is a bit puny and no heatsinks on the VRAM.

mockingbird wrote on 2022-12-22, 17:15:

Thanks for that... Your motherboard seems to be better suited than the ones I tried then... I also tried an Asus P5GC-MX/1333 (ICH7) and had issues with it too.

Anytime, any other info or screenshots, do let me know. I did disable everything in BIOS apart from the USB controller - the USB 2.0 I disabled - and the USB legacy mouse option, everything else not needed was turned off.

And that's it, so far at least. I plan on an XP install next and use some more mature drivers, to test performance and of course nGlide, and hopefully I won't suffer any bugs with that. I may even put in an E8400 to eliminate bottleneck, strictly for benching, the Celeron will stay, but Doom 3 suffers with this CPU due to the 512k of cache when I tested it on an XP previously with a Quadro 2000 (around 8800gt performance).

Thanks for reading!

Reply 9 of 10, by DrLucienSanchez

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Build is now 100% complete. I'm just leaving this as a Windows 98 build.

I'm putting this last update on as I have managed to resolve the issue with the refresh rate being locked at 60Hz, no matter if using HzTool, Powerstrip - it was a well known issue back in the day. I have it all happily runningn at 85Hz, much kinder to the eyes.

I made sure that HzTool was set for all resolutions at 85Hz first, but it's a simple registry entry -

"Start regedit, go to HKLM/Software/ATI Technologies/Driver/0001/DAL (or instead of 0001 whatever number your current driver uses).
Insert a new binary value, named "DALRULE_ALLOWNONDDCCRTALLMODESUPTO1600x1200". Set the value to 01 00 00 00.
Or, you could try "DALRULE_CRTSUPPORTSALLMODES" and set this to 01 00 00 00 instead. (Both work here perfectly, the difference being that one allows resolutions up to 1600x1200x200, the other 2048x1536x200.
That's it, just reboot.
IMPORTANT: you need to set the refresh rate for all resolutions you want to use manually with regedit, since the driver will likely set them to 200hz when you switch resolutions, so you won't get a picture unless your monitor can handle that. So, go to [HKLM\System\CurrentControlSet\Services\Class\Display\0000 (or whatever number your monitor has)\MODES\x\y,z]. Make a new string "RefreshRate" and set it to "85" or whatever you like and your monitor can handle.
If you forget to do this you might be forced to boot in safe mode since you might get an "out of range" value by your monitor upon boot-up...

I found that the last step (after the 'IMPORTANT') was not necessary, presumably because I'd used 'HZTool' to set up refresh rates beforehand. This was the ONLY fix that worked for me, other than having 'Powerstrip' run on startup."

Source - https://forums.anandtech.com/threads/stuck-at … te-help.988027/

Now to get back to Baldur's Gate - original of course!

Reply 10 of 10, by Warlord

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I have a half build rig like this, that I've never got around to finishing, maybe I'll finish it next year.